reisende

this happens sometimes, and at other times, he is totally ok with children.

ok, the situation is this: moonshine has had minimal exposure to children (below 8 years old). when he was in quarantine, some kids would run screaming by his kennel and he hates it, and would bark. since he has been out of quarantine, I have tried maximising his exposure to children.

at a recent dog show, he even met a 5 year old kid with his aunt, and he was totally fine - no growls, no standing up (he was in down position). but I thought he was 'meek' partly because he was in a very different and rather stressful environment, and hungry too.

at cafes, when I am seated with him, he would sometimes ignore children, but twice, kids walked by (quite close, about 6ft away, with their parents and behaving themselves when moonshine would for no reason, get up and growl at the children. to say the least, the parents gave me the dirtiest looks and I don't blame them.

the problem is, I don't have family/friends with kids that age, and dobes are considered super-large size dogs here and 99.9999% of people here are terrified of my dog, so mothers with their kids in toll are even more terrified/wary. I don't have any such kids to get them to meet my dobe. so what I do is, whenever I walk moonshine and see kids walking in my direction, I'd make him sit by the side, allow the kids to walk by, and keep saying in happy, bright calm voice, 'look moonshine! cute children! good moonshine!' when he doesn't growl/get up to move towards them, I'd treat and praise him. when I go to cafes and he's in down position and kids walk by, I'd praise him when he doesn't growl etc.

questions I have: why does he growl at them? is it because they are smaller than he is and wants to dominate them? (he is a sweetheart in public to strangers. he'd sniff people who approach us and lick their hands. but it's more of a hit or miss for kids.)

also, what should I do to make him NEVER growl at kids, and treat them as SUPER positive experiences? I will keep up and be as consistent as I can with treating and praising him whenever he sees kids, and there are definitely a handful of parents who would permit their kids to meet moonshine, but I am afraid as I want to be absolutely sure he would be 100% friendly with them.

please help! your experiences with kids and your dobes would also help too. thanks.

alwayshadpets

The growling may be a fear issue. You can desensitize this behavior. Somethings that might help.
Never let him stare at children.
Make him stay focused on you or a chew toy.
Make it happy time when kids are around. Feed lots of treats.
Practice at playgrounds, anywhere children are, but from a distance and
I would not invite nor let kids pet him when you are out. Kids may never be his love and it is easier to prevent something happening (like a snap or bite).

lyngr

Sometimes all of the training/desensitizing in the world won't change a genetic fault.

We rescued a 10 week old puppy, who grew up with my kids day in & out. She was never comfortable around kids. Not even my own children, who were never wild or rough with her. For some reason, as she got older, she would act very squirrelly in their presence and growl if they sat near her. Realizing that traditional obedience classes weren't enough, we hired a positive reinforcement trainer/behaviorist and practiced N.I.L.I.F (with supervision, the kids controlled all of her resources) and she seemed to be making progress..


Long story short.. at about 15 months old, she bit my son. This was a boy she knew very well and I assure you, he didn't do anything overtly provocative. Luckily, my son wasn't hurt badly.. but imagine how much trouble we'd've been in had it been a neighborhood child.


The point is, (ahp is right) Moonshine may never be totally secure around young children and while you should continue to reward him for good behavior, just keep your distance from young kids. It's not worth the potential risk.

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A change of course in our direction.. a dash of truth spread thinly.

Santa

I have a very similar problem and, same as you, my main solution so far has been to avoid children, but I realise this is only going to make things worse long term.
One thing I've noticed though, I think Zac may be picking up on my own (massive!) discomfort around children. Probably not the whole cause but I'm sure it's factor. Could you be expressing some of your feelings to Moonshine (lovely name )?

jatango

First, see if you can talk to a behaviorist. This is important as this is an issue that could potentially be dangerous. That being said, I have a dog who did exactly as yours does and is now relatively comfortable. I wouldn't leave him (or ANY dog) unsupervised with a child, but I can trust him on lead even if the kid is being a complete jerk.

Once he started this trend, we went to petsmart or an outdoor food stand every day. I started out with laps around the outer aisles of the store and every time we saw a kid, he sat and got a BIG BIG treat. We're talking a whole hotdog or better. He didn't have to look at me at first as he was fearful and redirecting him was tough. In about three days, he would see a kid, plant his butt and look at me. PERFECT, now I had a foothold on his behavior. When he got more comfortable, we would purposefully walk out of his comfort zone and closer to the kid. He no longer got the hotdog just for seeing the kid, I had to make him uncomfortable again and then give him the treat. I kept him away from direct kid contact during all of this. After about a month, we would see a kid in petsmart with "those eyes" and I would ask mom if her kid would like to give wonder a treat. Usually I got the nod and I would hand the kid a big long hotdog so Wonder didn't have to get too close. Wonder would grab the hotdog and give the kid a hairy eyeball, but nothing else. Be sure to get out of petting range quickly after this. After about two weeks of this step, he was comfortable enough with them that the growling stopped. I would carry hotdog pieces with me to randomly reinforce this when possible, but I didn't push it anymore. As he got older, most of this stopped. He also got more comfortable after a few obedience classes. The classes helped him see me as a leader and bringer of fun and that let him relax.

It is important that you don't go out hunting for kids during the initial stages because you don't want to have any accidental run ins with a dog who is still wary. You can accomplish this outside too, you don't need to be in a store. Just take it SLOW, no rush. Pushing the dog too hard will do more damage than good. Like Lyngr said, Moonshine may never be comfortable with kids, but he should at least tolerate them. Just watch his interactions. If he ever ever snaps at you when you are trying to redirect, I would just avoid kids up-close completely. It obviously stresses him out too much.

This is all just my experience. I take no responsibility for anything that happens when/if you try this and am not a professional trainer or behaviorist. Again, this is my personal experience and not a training manual.

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Kettle Cove Robin Redbreast CGC (1/3 RN!), Wonder

hbwright

Jordan was this way with teenagers. Children are his comfort zone and he prefers them over adults, but teenagers are very scary to him. We worked on taking walks during the time when the teenagers were taking the bus and would work on redirecting him and I asked the kids before hand to leave the dog alone and please do not acnowledge him at all. Like Jatango, we slowly increased his tollerance by gradually taking him away from his comfort zone to the point that the teenagers were giving him treats and eventually able to pet him without fear reactions (his being tail between legs and eyes diverted and growling). We also have a good teenager friend who worked very hard with the both of us in getting him desensitized to "those kind".

I think it was also the large size of the teenagers but still the child like energy that he picked up on. Another thing we did with my trainer is worked on movements (child like) around the dog and praising and treating the proper reactions. We would vary our movements around him even to the point of quickly moving over him in a very dominant fashion but making it as positive as experience as possible with high pitched excitement and major yummy treats. Of course, this was the trainer and I only doing this, but he became accustomed to the behavior and is now not threatened by this behavior by others, who don't do it to the extent that the trainer and I did.

I personally would be very concerned of these reactions to small children, reason being that both small children and dogs can be very unpredictable, even the best behaved and well trained dogs (and kids). I definetely think that working with a behaviorist would be worth while. I would have never attempted to try any of these things without the aid of a professional by my side.

Julie W

Smart dog.

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berkdogg

My dog barks at children as well. He hackles up and everything when he sees them. A 6'8" 350lbs man could walk by in a cape and he wouldn't think nothing of it. I never got the opportunity to socialize him with children, as me and my wife have none. Who is going to let you use their kid to socialize your Dobe? My uncle who did 3 tours in in Vietnam with a K-9 unit told me that if I did bring a child into the house, Merrick would attack the child.

robinb

Being fearful around kids does not mean a genetic fault all the time. If a puppy is not socialized properly around kids they can actually be afraid of them or just not like them. I took a wonderful older Lab when his owner died, the dog just disliked kids, he was never around them before I got him and since I don't have any kids I just kept him away from any, as the dog was 10 when I took him. He was a great dog in every other respect.

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feverone

I agree Robin b.. I dont have kids either not do i plan to... My dogs dont mind kids but I do LOL... I dont allow kids to pet my dogs because my dogs will jump up on the kid and knock them down and if you get the wrong parent and the kids crying they'll try and say my dog attacked their kid sooo for me its not worth it to take the chance. I just make up something if they want to pet my dogs -like oh he has to pee cant stop now or he's not feeling well today i'd rather you didnt but thanks for wanting too...
I love my dogs to much to risk them to a misunderstanding JMHO

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Debi
Nightflight Regd Dobermans
www.nightflight.piczo.com