Correction levels

Dobemom2b · 05-05-2008, 08:16 AM

I am curious what 'level correction' everyone has/is using on dobes and at what age that use or have used a prong.

Does your dog need a quick snap on the prong or have to be snatched hard enough to take it off its feet and raise whelps were the prongs were even using the prong covers to get his/her attention?

I just have a hard time picturing a lot of you brute force managing with the size/weight some of these dogs get.

**Doberdog** · 05-05-2008, 08:44 AM

I got Q a prong at about 8 months but don't use it often. The first time it was used, he provided the jerk himself. Since then I only have to put it on and he may jerk, not hard, a few times and even yelp (he is a baby all the time), then he just walks pretty. I don't have to do anything but put it on him and be sure it is a snug fit. He does the rest and it never leaves a mark.

dusuwho · 05-05-2008, 08:58 AM

I can't ever imagine using something as extreme as a prong. I know nothing but it seems cruel. Is it?

Dobemom2b · 05-05-2008, 09:30 AM

The pinch of a prong seems less harmful than collapsing a trachea or taking away a dogs air with a 'choke' or dominant collar.

Cynosis · 05-05-2008, 09:34 AM

I don't use "pops", I'm a positive dog trainer. That said, from the traditional trainers I've talked to, they recommend (these are their words, and not my advice at all) only using very strong corrections in the event of aggression. I believe this can cause increased aggression, so I don't recommend it.

I won't ever chastise another trainer or owner for doing what they feel is right for their own dog, but I don't believe in using brute force for training.

ETA: Prongs are self-correcting and that's the beauty of them for those who use them; I don't think it's necessary to pop them hard on a prong collar even if you are a traditional trainer.

Dobemom2b · 05-05-2008, 09:48 AM

I never have either and never have had a need to out brute force a dog. That said the last ob instructor told me I am too easy.

She is the one who corrected him off his feet and his eyes were glued to her after that. She believes clicker or treating in the right position to train/reinforce heel creates dogs that fall apart when stressed. That they have to know there is a consequence to not obeying a command.

Since positive training has not worked in a reliable way I am willing to admit I may not be dealing with his temperament/personality correctly. It's just very hard for me to grasp that I need to correct to the level she did in class.

At the same time hes the equivalent of a teen punk who needs to learn he can not push the world around or do what he wants. His biggest issue that in my opinion needs to be checked is his charging towards something he wants. Not a person or even a dog, usually a tree he wants to p on or a cat that makes the mistake of moving and being noticed. He will hit the end of a 6ft lead and 3mm prong hard enough to take his self off his feet after a cat if it moves. If it stays still he will walk within 2 ft of it giving it the evil eye but does not charge it until it moves.

dusuwho · 05-05-2008, 10:02 AM

Sorry guys I'm struggling with this. I never wish to cause my dobie pain.

Is this really the way forward????

Surely not.

Somebody tell me they've managed perfectly well training a dog to behave in the way you want them to without causing pain.

Cheers,

Cynosis · 05-05-2008, 10:10 AM

I've had a great deal of success training dogs with positive dog training. There are trainers who disagree (and trainers are, in fact, notorious for disagreeing!), but I will hold to the fact that it's unnecessary to inflict intense pain on a dog. I believe it breaks the trust between handler and dog, and that the dog will not find training as rewarding and fun as s/he otherwise would have. This has been my experience. I've had no failures so far in sticking to positive training, but to be fair, who's to say I won't have a failure tomorrow? Hopefully not, but it's possible. There's no fool-proof method. All forms of training require consistency and confidence. Ultimately, you have to decide what's best for your own dog. If you're not confident about the method you're using, it won't work, regardless of what method it happens to be.

(All of this said, I'm not criticizing anyone who chooses to implement training methods other than positive training. These are just my opinions and my approach.

)

Dobemom2b · 05-05-2008, 10:21 AM

dusuwho
If it makes you feel better he is the first dog I have ever had to correct this way. He is not the biggest breed or the most stubborn breed I have had and not even the first dobe but is the first from a pup of 18wks which seems I missed the socialization and imprint peroids based on the link jdd posted a few days ago.

Cynosis
I have to admit I do not like to correct like she did and have never got the reaction she did from him so my guess is I am still not correcting to her level?
I am however willing to admit that my past way of training isn't working as well with him but then the breed matures slower?
I just dont want to find out later that hes obnoxious his entire life and I could have fixed it with leash corrections. No one wants to be around a pushy 80lb dog that bowles down kids or jumps up on you.

Because he is supposed to be a service dog prospect the relationship is vital, I feel like I am trying and trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole. He may mature to work out but by service dog puppy choosing standards he is not the right personality.

Service dog or not however he is here and I owe it to him to teach him self control even if i have to entertain methods I have never had to use before. I am flying blind based on a internet forum and a trainer who says throw away the clicker at least for obedience and manners. The positive classes we did first seemed to have no effect with him, he learned but was unreliable doing it if he wanted to. Treats wind him up and he has a hard mouth, if he is walking and you slip him treats he either prances around in front of you trying to get the rest or mouths your fingers so hard trying to drag them out of your hand that after a few tries you have sore fingers and possible missing skin on knuckles.

Lexxsmom · 05-05-2008, 10:31 AM

I am of two minds about this. I do use a prong collar on my dog, and NO i do NOT think it is cruel. He is generally well behaved with or without the collar, but I have had several instances where I have been very glad to have that collar on as he can become extremely strong.

as for positive training, Lexx has absolutely no interest in food, to the point where he will take a treat into his mouth ( a yummy yummy treat) and if hes distracted, he will just spit it back out again... therefore not overly useful for training in distraction. I do appreciate the use of the prong collar and it has helped a lot with his pulling etc.

as for it being "popped" and him yelping, yup its happened.. normally he does it to himself when he flies backwards on me for no reason or when he goes to take off after something. I do not use a prong for self correction, as it was the way I was taught by my trainer to use it.

I might have preferred to stick to food, if it was working at all, but it wasn't and I had to find something else. This is working for now and I do not feel that it had damaged my dog in any way.