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Old 05-02-2013, 11:28 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Doberman aggression - need help !!

Hi. Zeus is a beautiful male dobe we got at 16 weeks of age from Europe. At the age of 10 months he started showing aggression toward our 11 years old son, by growling and jumping on him when he held his collar, we took him to a veterinarian behaviorist who said he was dominant aggressive, and started him in obedience training, and taught us how to manage his aggression. Since then, he has snapped at my wife and daughter more than once whenever they grabbed his collar or made a dominant gesture. Injuries has always been minor, we could tell he is trying to signal his dominance rather than hurting us, but the impact has accumulated to the point we have to confine him and not let him interact with anyone but me, who he certainly accepts as his alpha male.
We all love him and do not want to get rid of him or euthenise him. He is 2.5 years old now, and I am desperate not knowing what to do. Is there a rehab center for dogs like him ? I am concerned about my family and don't want to lose Zeus. Please help!
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:43 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Find a Board certified behaviorist. Any vet can call themselves behaviorists.

Also ditch the alpha mentality, people aren't dogs so we aren't their pack. He is simple acting the way he has found he is able and capable of wether from lack of training, behavioral issue, or mental issue.
Look into nilf in the meantime as well. Any dog misbehaving in my house looses privileges

My girl is reactive and will bully and "be aggressive" with my dad IF I allow such behavior, but I don't.
Find a competent certified behaviorist to help you evaluate and correct your boy properly.

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Old 05-02-2013, 11:51 AM   #3 (permalink)
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First of all a male dobe playing dominance games with people is extremely dangerous as is a human trying to dominate a grown dog and it really doesn't work too well with dobermans anyway, and is a recipe fro disaster.

I am sure that there are many people on this forum that can give you much more sound advice than I can but my first question to you would be this..... has Zeus had a complete Thyroid panel done? The thyroid being off can cause aggression issues and is a fairly easy fix. Secondly since we have a Euro male ourselves I can tell you that they can be very high drive and need to be kept busy and TRAINED not just sit and shake either, professional training classes that focus on dog and owner training.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:17 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Find a DVG or UDC Schutzhund club in your area and have them evaluate the dog. The trainers are very knowledgeable on how to handle dominant dogs. They can give you techniques to solve the problem but all in the family will have to follow instructions.

He is a young male coming into his own. He will only get more assertive as he matures. Now is the time to learn good training techniques and how to direct his behavior..
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:02 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanpersi View Post
Hi. Zeus is a beautiful male dobe we got at 16 weeks of age from Europe. At the age of 10 months he started showing aggression toward our 11 years old son, by growling and jumping on him when he held his collar, we took him to a veterinarian behaviorist who said he was dominant aggressive, and started him in obedience training, and taught us how to manage his aggression. Since then, he has snapped at my wife and daughter more than once whenever they grabbed his collar or made a dominant gesture. Injuries has always been minor, we could tell he is trying to signal his dominance rather than hurting us, but the impact has accumulated to the point we have to confine him and not let him interact with anyone but me, who he certainly accepts as his alpha male.
We all love him and do not want to get rid of him or euthenise him. He is 2.5 years old now, and I am desperate not knowing what to do. Is there a rehab center for dogs like him ? I am concerned about my family and don't want to lose Zeus. Please help!
Hello Vanpersi,
Like you, I am new to the forum and my Dob knowledge is limited.
First, is the dog neutered?
Anyway, you say the dog stared obedience training. How is that going? Is the dog still engaged in it? Also, what other activities you do with the dog? (I mean on regular base). Does your son and wife walk Zeus? Athletic activities?
Confinement is not an option for a Doberman. That by itself can escalate the situation.
One last question: you said the dog is from Europe. Why did you import it from there? I am asking since if it was bred by professional breeders, you may ask them for advice as well. (They are supposed to know their dogs).
I believe that with the right person and training, things can get under control.
Good luck to you and Zeus!

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Old 05-02-2013, 02:21 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Board certified veterinary behaviorists: Find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist ACVB

Dominance theory has been debunked thoroughly by science, so a trained veterinary behaviorist that has been board certified is highly unlikely to give you that diagnosis. You need a thorough evaluation, including medical work up. A vet behaviorist will likely also be able to refer you to a competent trainer.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Please remember human safety comes first. Definitely keep investigating the problem and I'd try a new behaviorist but above all humans must be able to stay safe. It sounds like you are doing a good job of managing too (didn't want to insinuate that you were not).
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:32 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1491 View Post
Find a Board certified behaviorist. Any vet can call themselves behaviorists.

Also ditch the alpha mentality, people aren't dogs so we aren't their pack. He is simple acting the way he has found he is able and capable of wether from lack of training, behavioral issue, or mental issue.
Look into nilf in the meantime as well. Any dog misbehaving in my house looses privileges

My girl is reactive and will bully and "be aggressive" with my dad IF I allow such behavior, but I don't.
Find a competent certified behaviorist to help you evaluate and correct your boy properly.

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Dogs are irrational and aren't going to drop their instinctive behavior because their pack is human and dog mixed. They are pack animals and associate their humans with their "pack." Everyone has their opinion on this matter. Not saying the dominant aggressive diagnosis is correct but there are a lot of things you can do to prevent the dangerous behavior. For one, recognize early warning signs that the dog is going to act out.Observe his behavior around your family, are his ears forward, does he stalk them with his eyes, correct him early so he knows not to get to the state of growling and biting, when he is too far gone to listen.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1491 View Post
Find a Board certified behaviorist. Any vet can call themselves behaviorists.

Also ditch the alpha mentality, people aren't dogs so we aren't their pack. He is simple acting the way he has found he is able and capable of wether from lack of training, behavioral issue, or mental issue.
Look into nilf in the meantime as well. Any dog misbehaving in my house looses privileges

My girl is reactive and will bully and "be aggressive" with my dad IF I allow such behavior, but I don't.
Find a competent certified behaviorist to help you evaluate and correct your boy properly.

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I strongly disagree. Family members are indeed a part of the dog's social pack. Just become some dog "behaviorist" says different does not change the reality. This dog has been effectively trained not to respect family members. It needs a real trainer not someone who lacks a real understanding of aggressive dogs (like probably most people describing themselves as behaviorists). Unfortunately they can be few and far between.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:52 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Board certified veterinary behaviorists: Find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist ACVB

Dominance theory has been debunked thoroughly by science, so a trained veterinary behaviorist that has been board certified is highly unlikely to give you that diagnosis. You need a thorough evaluation, including medical work up. A vet behaviorist will likely also be able to refer you to a competent trainer.
Really? I see dominance theory worked out on a regular basis, week after week, month after month, year after year. It is part of what we work on damn near every training session. Most people would not know what a real aggressive dog is unless it bit them. Just because someone who claims to have research and statistics that they can mold to fit their theory does not necessarily make it a reality. In the setting I train in we thrive on extremely aggressive dogs and managing their behavior. Some of these dogs would have been euthanized a long time ago, if it had been left to some "behaviorists".
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:13 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Years ago when I belonged to a Schutzhund club a man purchase a Dobe from Europe. He was so excited to have an imported dog that 'could do it all' but as the dog aged, it became so aggressive only he could handle it. When it attempted to attack his wife he had to make the decision to euthanize it. People should never purchase dogs from foreign countries without visiting the kennel and seeing the dogs themselves.

I have owned four Dobermans, all born in the USA and the last two were from Schutzhund lines with European pedigrees. They both were/are much more to handle than my total American bred dogs and I cannot imagine notching it up to get full European pedigrees.

I wish you luck with your dog. Please get good professional help for your benefit as well as his.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:20 AM   #12 (permalink)
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It says you live in the Midwest. A large area but there is someone well versed in dog aggression you could get a consultation with, Brenda Aloff, in Michigan. BrendaAloff.com Homepage
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:30 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Really? I see dominance theory worked out on a regular basis, week after week, month after month, year after year. It is part of what we work on damn near every training session. Most people would not know what a real aggressive dog is unless it bit them. Just because someone who claims to have research and statistics that they can mold to fit their theory does not necessarily make it a reality. In the setting I train in we thrive on extremely aggressive dogs and managing their behavior. Some of these dogs would have been euthanized a long time ago, if it had been left to some "behaviorists".
I think sometimes people see what they want to see. So all the research is just wrong? Even those that went in expecting to see results that proved it?

Also, I find it a little snarky of you to say "behaviorists." Veterinarians who have trained extensively in behavioral medicine and passed board exams don't deserve that. You may disagree with what they say, and you may disagree with the science, but that doesn't make them unqualified.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:40 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I think sometimes people see what they want to see. So all the research is just wrong? Even those that went in expecting to see results that proved it?

Also, I find it a little snarky of you to say "behaviorists." Veterinarians who have trained extensively in behavioral medicine and passed board exams don't deserve that. You may disagree with what they say, and you may disagree with the science, but that doesn't make them unqualified.
I fall in the middle of the road here. I've been working, training with different groups and dozens of dogs since my mentor took me under his wing with my heart dobe in 1983. I learned so much from him and others since then.

I never saw a prong collar, I never saw an ecollar though they existed. I never saw any dingdong trying to "alpha-roll" a dog because even then we were taught that if it comes to that, the dogs submits to you and if you try to roll him you deserve to get bitten. I think this may have been ahead of the Monks enlightening the world at large, but I'm not certain.

Training was a slow progression with very light leads and choke chains. The point being you wanted the dog to not know whether he was off or on lead. We started with accustoming the young pups to a leash if they weren't and teaching the others to heel. There weren't jerks back if they got ahead or distracted, that is defeating the purpose of the dog watching you. If he went ahead you simply dropped the fold of the 6' lead (held in your left hand across the body) turned around and went in the other direction picking up the slack as he caught up..

In this manner, it takes a very short time before the dog is watching your legs and turning with you and adjusting his speed accordingly. Eventually placing the leash in a pocket prior to removing the leash entirely. We use very light 30' longlines for long sits/downs after they have them solidly on the short lead.

This would be part of a 10 week course in which they would learn
Heel
Sit
Down
Stay
Stand for Examination
Recall

The last night every dog, pup through senior would go through a mock basic obedience trial. Class after class nearly 90% of those dog and pups passed their "trial" first go.

I still train this way, no treats but lots of praise. Though I use nylon chokes on youngsters if they aren't too hairy. I don't use food until we start nosework and then only at the start.

I think the pendulum has swung far too much in the other direction. I happen to believe that dogs think in a pack order. They are hard-wired that way. As horses are wired to be in a herd, we break them up and put them in stalls as it makes them more malleable, more likely to look to us for leadership. (or at least to get along so we don't eat them)

Our dogs send us submissive or dominant or play signals constantly. If some paper comes out claiming to have "debunked" the whole dominance theory and that keeps some jackass from rolling and terrorizing his probably already submissive dog then I'm all for it. Most dogs are just trying to get along. I personally love an alpha bitch. You learn to work with her and you have the best partner ever.

Didn't mean for this to get so long. Remember this is my opinion based on my experience over the last 100 or so years. If you think I'm FOS, that's ok by me. It surely wouldn't be the first time.

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~Bev~
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I think sometimes people see what they want to see. So all the research is just wrong? Even those that went in expecting to see results that proved it?

Also, I find it a little snarky of you to say "behaviorists." Veterinarians who have trained extensively in behavioral medicine and passed board exams don't deserve that. You may disagree with what they say, and you may disagree with the science, but that doesn't make them unqualified.
I usually do not respond to posts such as the op posted. I must say it does make me feel pretty snarky to see the standard response "find a behaviorist". I have trained for years in a culture that routinely deals with some of the most aggressive dogs on the planet. I can tell you most people would not have a clue how to handle these dogs. I would bet money that nearly every "behaviorist" would go to CYA mode and tell the owner to euthanize because it is highly unlikely they would have any real answers for a really aggressive dog.

My mentor was mentored by Reinhard Lindner and Jurgen Ritzi. These guys were the head of the border patrol programs in Germany and had a reputation in those circles at being the best at handling extremely aggressive dogs. With such dogs you do what you have to do to solve the problems, rehome, or euthanize. Unfortunately many people would be unable or unwilling to do what it takes to get the job done. For a fear biter or otherwise reactive, but relatively soft dog, maybe some of the techniques that people on here might suggest, such as NILF, more basic training, etc might get the job done. For a truly aggressive dog, these methods are not going to cut it.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I usually do not respond to posts such as the op posted. I must say it does make me feel pretty snarky to see the standard response "find a behaviorist". I have trained for years in a culture that routinely deals with some of the most aggressive dogs on the planet. I can tell you most people would not have a clue how to handle these dogs. I would bet money that nearly every "behaviorist" would go to CYA mode and tell the owner to euthanize because it is highly unlikely they would have any real answers for a really aggressive dog.

My mentor was mentored by Reinhard Lindner and Jurgen Ritzi. These guys were the head of the border patrol programs in Germany and had a reputation in those circles at being the best at handling extremely aggressive dogs. With such dogs you do what you have to do to solve the problems, rehome, or euthanize. Unfortunately many people would be unable or unwilling to do what it takes to get the job done. For a fear biter or otherwise reactive, but relatively soft dog, maybe some of the techniques that people on here might suggest, such as NILF, more basic training, etc might get the job done. For a truly aggressive dog, these methods are not going to cut it.
Do you think most people should own a "really aggressive dog?" Because I can't imagine the the general dog owning public is going to be capable of managing that kind of dog. So what choice do they have?
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:43 PM   #17 (permalink)
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OP, what do you do when the dog is aggressive with the family members?

If it is so bad you can't even let him around others, this is the one time I might suggest sending this dog to a trainer for an "adjustment". However, I don't know any to recommend and that road can be dangerous for your dog and you.

I suggest getting in contact with a schutzhund club trainer for help. They know euro dogs.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:36 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Just because you are a "super moderator" doesnt mean you are always completely correct. There is truth in what he says. Hows does arguing with him about differing opinions help the op? Different views help a person come to a conclusion, thats why they call it a forum.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:02 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Just because you are a "super moderator" doesnt mean you are always completely correct. There is truth in what he says. Hows does arguing with him about differing opinions help the op? Different views help a person come to a conclusion, thats why they call it a forum.
I am basing what I say on the available science, not my own opinion. You (and others) are free to believe whatever you like. Are you suggesting moderators are not allowed to post their own opinions? This is a forum, after all. I am suggesting that perhaps the OP would be better served by a different training method, since making himself alpha is not successful in this circumstance.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:21 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Aggression is very difficult to train out of a dog. Most people, and many trainers do not have the background needed, and should not attempt to do so.

Sounds like somewhere in his past he has been hurt by someone through the collar. That issue needs desensitized. You need to find a trainer who works without force and anger. The issue needs to be addressed by showing the dog that there other ways to react to what he fears and he need not fear some things. Interview trainers in your area about how they would work with an agressive dog, and make a common sense choice, ask for referances.

BUT by all means do it, for you, FOR THE KIDS SAFTEY, and for the dog.

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Old 05-06-2013, 02:32 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I'm not trying to take this thread off on a tangent, because the OP does have a serious problem with his Dobe. But the whole dominance pack theory- I liked the comment about the pendulum swinging too far the other way, away from the fact that dogs do need structure. Yes, the original dominance study was done on a captive wolf pack and was inaccurate. Wolves in captivity do not function the same way a wild wolf pack will. But that doesn't mean that there is absolutely no structure in a wolf pack or in a group of dogs.

It does mean that techniques like alpha rolling are BS. Yes, your dog knows you're a human, not a dog. I'd love to see someone try to alpha roll Griffin (not really, it would be a toss up over who would bite first- him or me). But dogs don't get to run the household. A dog that feels he has the right to snap at someone for touching his collar has issues, and those issues need to be dealt with.

OP, if there's a problem with him snapping at your wife and daughter, minimizing interaction is a good idea until you can get him evaluated. And the only reason why I personally tend to push an evaluation with someone local is because it's almost impossible to see what the dog is like over the Internet. We can give you tips on how to manage the problem, but someone working with him in person is going to be more helpful in the end.

If you have to in the house, clip a leash on and use that as a drag line. If your wife or daughter needs to move him or put him in his crate, they can get the leash to do it without putting a hand on his collar. And I definitely second the talk to a Schutzhund club recommendation. If you do send your dog away for remedial training, make sure you talk to some local folks who can give you an honest assessment of the trainer you choose. You don't want to pick a poor trainer and make your dog worse.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:49 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I'm not trying to take this thread off on a tangent, because the OP does have a serious problem with his Dobe. But the whole dominance pack theory- I liked the comment about the pendulum swinging too far the other way, away from the fact that dogs do need structure. Yes, the original dominance study was done on a captive wolf pack and was inaccurate. Wolves in captivity do not function the same way a wild wolf pack will. But that doesn't mean that there is absolutely no structure in a wolf pack or in a group of dogs.

It does mean that techniques like alpha rolling are BS. Yes, your dog knows you're a human, not a dog. I'd love to see someone try to alpha roll Griffin (not really, it would be a toss up over who would bite first- him or me). But dogs don't get to run the household. A dog that feels he has the right to snap at someone for touching his collar has issues, and those issues need to be dealt with.

OP, if there's a problem with him snapping at your wife and daughter, minimizing interaction is a good idea until you can get him evaluated. And the only reason why I personally tend to push an evaluation with someone local is because it's almost impossible to see what the dog is like over the Internet. We can give you tips on how to manage the problem, but someone working with him in person is going to be more helpful in the end.

If you have to in the house, clip a leash on and use that as a drag line. If your wife or daughter needs to move him or put him in his crate, they can get the leash to do it without putting a hand on his collar. And I definitely second the talk to a Schutzhund club recommendation. If you do send your dog away for remedial training, make sure you talk to some local folks who can give you an honest assessment of the trainer you choose. You don't want to pick a poor trainer and make your dog worse.
Agree with you 100% about rules and structure; dogs like and need rules and structure. I don't know anyone in the world of science based training that is a good trainer/owner and doesn't believe in providing that for their dogs, and it's certainly backed by science. Everyone is happier when they know what is acceptable and what isn't.

You are also 100% correct that no one can diagnose this dog over the internet. This could be a case of dog with serious temperament issues, or it might not be. No one can know without seeing the dog in person, and even then...what's the old trainer joke? The only thing two trainers can agree on is that the third trainer is wrong?
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Old 05-06-2013, 04:48 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Yeah, pretty much spot on with trainers and opinions. Dog training isn't a one size fits all and dogs are all different. I've had people tell me I should alpha roll Griffin for doing the Dober nose-poke, because clearly that means he's showing his 'dominance' and is trying to take over the pack. I was serious when I said he would bite if anyone tried it (and me too, nobody touches my dog like that). He's muzzled at the vets if he has to be put on his side or his back for a reason. And there's other people who say yeah, work with what you have- if he doesn't like being rolled onto his back, find ways to work around it. So he gets his nails trimmed the same way I'd clean hooves- standing up, and he'll even lift his feet for me. I don't think he's challenging me, it's more that he just can't tolerate being forced onto his back. When he rolls over for a belly rub, it's an amazing thing for me- proves how much he trusts me and it's sort of humbling, y'know?

But my first Doberman Logan was the dog who sent me to a professional trainer to deal with his aggression problems. And I really can't stress enough that the a trainer's help and a firm structure and rules- to be followed by everyone in the household- allowed Logan to exist without killing another dog. I learned quite a bit about thresholds and working a dog around them. And he taught me so much about dogs, even with his issues. Even after he improved, I still had to watch him around other dogs for the rest of his life.

Aggression is a tricky situation to deal with. It's not easy and after living with Logan, I can easily understand why a lot of owners can't or won't deal with it, especially if the dog is human aggressive.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Really? I see dominance theory worked out on a regular basis, week after week, month after month, year after year. It is part of what we work on damn near every training session. Most people would not know what a real aggressive dog is unless it bit them. Just because someone who claims to have research and statistics that they can mold to fit their theory does not necessarily make it a reality. In the setting I train in we thrive on extremely aggressive dogs and managing their behavior. Some of these dogs would have been euthanized a long time ago, if it had been left to some "behaviorists".
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I usually do not respond to posts such as the op posted. I must say it does make me feel pretty snarky to see the standard response "find a behaviorist". I have trained for years in a culture that routinely deals with some of the most aggressive dogs on the planet. I can tell you most people would not have a clue how to handle these dogs. I would bet money that nearly every "behaviorist" would go to CYA mode and tell the owner to euthanize because it is highly unlikely they would have any real answers for a really aggressive dog.

My mentor was mentored by Reinhard Lindner and Jurgen Ritzi. These guys were the head of the border patrol programs in Germany and had a reputation in those circles at being the best at handling extremely aggressive dogs. With such dogs you do what you have to do to solve the problems, rehome, or euthanize. Unfortunately many people would be unable or unwilling to do what it takes to get the job done. For a fear biter or otherwise reactive, but relatively soft dog, maybe some of the techniques that people on here might suggest, such as NILF, more basic training, etc might get the job done. For a truly aggressive dog, these methods are not going to cut it.
Thanks Rosamburg - your 2 posts above, is the most refreshing good read, on canine aggression...I had the pleasure to read:

Case in point, and everyone here on DT, knew of my Amy dober, in senior years:
- with therapy canine demeanour / humanized language intellegent / & family protector girl
So I introduce my Amy to this 9 week old, 23 lb. female mastiff...it growls back big time, and the lady owner laughs...real proud of its new found behavior - me I was disgusted at the sudden outburst.

At one year old, it was drawing blood, on her 2 kids ankles..when mom came home from work....jealous of shared love.
Once I dropped by for a few minutes, it CLOCKED its BIG HARD/BONEY HEAD into my cheek bone.
- this gave me a real head ache for the remainder of the night

Few months latter, I returned, but this time "I clocked it seconds before it set me up, to physically hurt me again".
- next I stern voiced OB commanded it, in a few simple commands...and returned loving hand strokes with softer voice, on realized gains
(Asian older lady was visiting & her knees were trembling, sitting on the livingroom couch...big aggressive dog terrified her)
Within 15 minutes with me, lady owner said, "your only the 2nd person, in this world, that my dog will listen to or can touch".

I offered more future training help (that evening) but the owner had it all under control.
- as they went to beginner puppy class, a year earlier...additional lessons ($$) not necessary
One month later, VET had the family aggressive girl put down...sadly, just in the wrong home.
- "whole dominance pack theory" or "the alpha theory"...fiction or not (who cares debate? not me), but having that old human mind set, seems to work
- and this lad, has never been bit by other peoples aggressive dog, and worked with a few dillys

Adult Bella (RIP, life terminated young) was eventually euthanize, given only the Vets advice:
- would of made a good dog, for someone else...more suited and experienced
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:56 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Sad story about that poor mastiff girl. And preventable. As soon as the puppy started growling.... that's not cute behavior, that's not something you laugh at and brush off. That puppy will grow up into a big, powerful dog.

The rescue Little Dog came from requires all new owners to take obedience classes. They're very blunt about why- most of the dogs who are dumped in their shelter or are euth'd are done so because of behavioral issues. Little Dog is mostly ACD, and needs tons of exercise, physical and mental. Griffin did too, when I first brought him home. Now that he's 8, he's slowed down a little, but he still likes getting out there and doing things. Little Dog... hasn't. But then, I've met ACDs I've assumed were young dogs before, and been told "Oh, no, he's ten years old." Blows my mind.

Some of the rest are because the owners got more dog than they could handle. I've talked about Trinity, the Rottweiler my former housemates adopted, on DT before. This was a dog who landed with the wrong owners. High drive, intelligent, stubborn- pretty much your typical, solid Rottie. She honestly was an amazing dog, she just had the absolute wrong owners. Twice. Her first set dumped her in the pound because she was too intense, too much dog. And yet, I had no trouble getting her to listen to me, because she learned early on I wouldn't tolerate acting out and that I would always be fair with her. But she was getting frustrated. She was bored. She needed a job and they couldn't provide it, so after a lot of discussion she was placed with a working cattle farm in the next county. She had a happy ending, fortunately. I still think I missed an opportunity to have a fantastic dog (she would've rocked protection) if I'd been able to take her, but she and Logan hated each other. Spending a life of crate and rotate wouldn't have been fair to either of them.

Get those rules, expectations, firm structure, a job to do if you have a dog that needs one, plenty of exercise, love, and a clear understanding of what you expect from your dog. Also Beaumont, I've always loved reading about Amy, and now Kelly. Your dogs are living proof of what happens when you have that structure. Amy really was a special dog.
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