Laser as a reward?

jatango · 04-14-2008, 09:53 PM

I have finally found the one thing W will choose over food - a laser. He pants and drools and shakes and whines and loses his brain. However, he knows EXACTLY where it comes from and stops looking if I put it away. I tried using it as a training reward and he was wild while doing commands but he did them fast and with tons of enthusiasm. We'll have to work on his self control, but this thing gives me the most response from him I have ever gotten and that is saying a lot. This dog loves to learn! Is it okay to use the laser as a reward or will I create a light-monster?

bleh60 · 04-14-2008, 09:57 PM

Laser pointers have been known to cause OCD and other problems in dogs. Aggression, chasing reflections, frusteration etc.

I would not use one at all, but some insist using it small amounts is ok. I don't like to take that chance nor let a dog depend on it as there are much better ways to play and give him something he can be proud of when he actually catches it!

**greenkouki** · 04-14-2008, 10:07 PM

I definitely wouldn't use it as a reward. It seems like it only puts him in an unstable mindset which you really don't need to be rewarding. If he's hungry enough food and verbal praise will always be the best reward. Not to mention he will probably end up braking something valuable in your home in his lazer crazed state if you continue.

jatango · 04-14-2008, 10:36 PM

I won't use it as a reward then, but I have seen dogs just as nuts over tennis balls. I mean, can stable dogs really not grasp the concept? If I had a dog prone to repetitive behavior I would burn this thing on the spot. Is it possible to create OCD where there wasn't a tendency before? Just curious.

Julie W · 04-14-2008, 10:39 PM

I agree, I wouldn't use one. If he responds better to play rewards like that I would teach him how to tug and use that instead. With a tug (or ball on a rope, whichever) you can work a dog into the same mindset as you do when you use the laser. The difference is with a tug they actually get the reward and release of that mental stress by being able to make contact, catch it, then the "game" continues. IMO you need them to be able to actually catch and tug as a reward, not just be continually teased by it like the laser simulates.

**doberkim** · 04-14-2008, 10:43 PM

I wouldn't, personally. What you describe (panting, drooling, shaking)- isn't a dog wanting to work for you - it's a dog over the edge. That isn't going to be a dog that you can get back into working easily, and it isn't going to be a dog that you can bring back down easily - it's not fair to him to push him that far repeatedly and then bring him back and expect him to be calm. If he could learn to control himself, that's one thing, but most dogs can never exhibit that sort of control around things that really set them off that much - its prey drive, pure and simple.

To this day, rah can't see lights flickering, flashing, or reflections off things without getting set off - reflections off his water bowls, off watch faces, off CD's and DVDs, the shadows people make in front of lamps and lights. heck, he used to do it with sunbeams coming in through the window. It's taken a long time to get him to ignore some of the daily tempations - I would never try to use something he goes bonkers over (and yes, Rah goes over the edge for laser pointers, which is why unfortunately my cats can't play with them) to reward him when there are other things that he can control himself around, available to him.

There are methods to build drive WITH control into toys and other things, I would focus on that -you can get intensity without losing control, and that is best. It's taken me 2 years to get Rah to believe that tennis ball is a game that only gets played WITH me, and that he can train with tennis balls on the floor, in the room, in my hand - and ignore them and focus on me.

**Burns** · 04-15-2008, 09:53 AM

I tend to agree with what was said above, however I use the laser periodically to proof commands. Because Red loves the laser so much - I like to practice him ignoring it and following commands while I have it out, then he gets to chase it for a lap.

For example, I say "leave it" and then shine out the laser and he's not allowed to chase it until I say "ok". Or I will put him in a sit/stay and shine the laser, then give the "focus" command and he must focus on me for X amount of time before I release him. So in a way, the laser is kind of a reward for proofing these commands, but we only use it for 2-3 minutes total tops, and Red knows when I put it away and say "all done" - he doesn't continue looking for it or chase lights or anything. It's just another distraction I like to use sometimes for working.

jatango · 04-15-2008, 10:14 PM

Oh boy, I'm sorry guys. I didn't mean to make everyone think that W was neurotic over this thing! He doesn't actually pant, shake or drool. I over-exaggerated to show how much he likes the toy, those aren't the actual behaviors he exhibits. Sorry! He listens very very well when I have it on and I proof him with it like Burns does. I use it about a minute at a time and then put it away. He understands where the laser comes from and the game has a start word and an end word. He always gets a treat after we're done which changes his focus. He never continues to look for it after he gets his treat.

I've tried teaching him to enjoy tug or the tennis ball, but he doesn't like those anywhere near as much as food or the laser. If you guys think he could develop compulsive behavior, I'll certainly stop. I don't want to chance that, but I must admit that level of response is addictive!