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Old 02-11-2013, 03:49 AM   #26 (permalink)
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People are so detached from country life now,they think every creature is a Disney character. No idea where their food comes from and yet want to cuddle mangy 'basil brushes'
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:29 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Coyotes are more of an issue around here, there are still plenty of foxes. We shoot either on site because they are such a nuisance to have around.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:41 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
Why do you not feel this same way...about the foxes?

Foxes are hardly the same as the environment ie, the carving up of a mountain just some fat ar$ed individual can get to the top without ever having to put his/her foot to the ground and as I have said previously, I am happy to leave foxes be if they leave me and mine be. I appreciate them just as much as the next person, in the right setting.

I'm sorry, but I've been reading along, and most of the things you're proposing, such as "hundreds of rabid foxes running thru the city," and one fox killing 35 chickens in one night--just seem very, very far-fetched.

Feral dogs are MUCH more likely to have been your chicken murderers.

Nope, it was a fox. I found its footprints.

a healthy fox will generally only kill what it plans to eat, and then exit posthaste to enjoy the meal somewhere in relative safety.

Which goes to show you have never experienced walking into your coup in the morning to see such carnage as to make you throw up, not to mention sob your eyes out because each one of the those chickens had been handraised by me from day old chicks. And trust me it is not as far fetched as you may think and whilst you are entitled to your view of foxes as being discriminating in their killings, I know they are not. As I have said I suffered massive losses in one night as did my neighbour a few nights later at his Turkey Farm.

Just because you saw a lone fox a couple days later, does not mean he was necessarily your original culprit.

Foxes are very territorial, so the chances of it being a completely different fox is pretty slim, but you are entitled to your opinion just as much as I am mine with regard.

As to hundreds of rabid fox attacks, um, the furious form of rabies is very rare indeed, even among the already-rare incidence of both forms of rabies, or total cases of rabies.

As for the hundreds of rabid foxes running around. Granted the chances of them all having rabies if it got into the UK is probably slim to virtually none. But that doesnt make the fact that the UK Government were putting into place (back when I was 5 or 6 if I remember correctly) a cull of foxes, badgers, cats, dogs and anything else that can catch rabies if so much as one animal in the area was believed (much less found) to have been infected.

Much more likely, in a rabid animal, is the "dumb" form, where they stumble, cannot coordinate movements, have difficulty with swallowing (hence the "hydrophobic" mythology, and generally wouldn't really be capable of attacking anyone or anything, or even defend themselves if they were attacked. It's a brain encephalitis, after all, and fatal.

Yes, it's a nasty disease, but I don't see folks having to wear Kevlar suits to work, to avoid the rabid Zombie fox herds, out prowling for human flesh.

Not having had to endure Rabies in my home country and not having to witness it here I didnt actually know that there were different forms. In truth I don't think many people care that there are, just that if you get it, it can kill you.

They seemingly don't have to be rabid zombie herds as you put it to go after human flesh, otherwise that little babies hand wouldnt have been in the offending foxes mouth with it chomping down, biting off in the process a finger.



Find ways, as Darkevs said, to live as harmoniously as possible with the wildlife. After all, they were there first.

Yep, they were, but hey, as I have said, if they stay away from me and mine, I will not bother them.

*None of this applies to millipedes, sorry, until someone can prove THEIR particular vital niche in the ecosystem, to me <shudder>
Most millipedes are herbivorous, and feed on decomposing vegetation or organic matter mixed with soil. A few species are omnivorous or carnivorous, and may prey on small arthropods, such as insects and centipedes, or on earthworms. Some species have piercing mouth parts that allow them to feed on plant juices.
In other words, they eat dead stuff and other creepy crawlies which all ties into the ecosystem.
Doesn't mean I like them though any more than you do.

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Old 02-11-2013, 07:50 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I just wanted to add the attack on the 4 week old baby is not seemingly a one off incident.

In 2002 a baby boy was attacked and severely injured due to bites to the head whilst sleeping in the living room of his home.

In 2010 twin girls were attacked in their upstairs bedroom by a fox resulting in arm and facial injuries.

Now in 2013 this little baby boy had his finger bitten off.


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Old 02-11-2013, 12:07 PM   #30 (permalink)
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for reasons known only to them............predators will go on 'killing sprees'.

it is a fact.

and yes, pet dogs and feral dogs will pack up and go on killing sprees too.

once saw the remnants of 5 Llamas after some dogs went on a killing spree during the night.........it was a horrific killing field.

and in the lower mainland area......about 100 miles south of me as a crow flies.......coyotes are now living in the country, city and suburbs.........many small dogs and cats have been taken away and eaten.

And one did stand up to a young girl in a park............

they are showing more aggression in what they now deem as their territory.

seeing more and more road killed coyotes too.


.....are we ever going to learn to live together?

i think we humans need to .............learn and live.............not live and learn.

if that makes any sense................
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:41 PM   #31 (permalink)
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My sister did herding and kept her own flock of Indian Runner Ducks on the ranch. A fox got in the pen and killed all the ducks I think there were 12 maybe 15, didn't eat one. After that she had one of her aussies out every night and it never happened again, she got more ducks. She called me freaking out about the duck slaughter and how horrible it was. Also it was quiet, her dogs never even barked. That is when she began to leave her aussies out at night, well two, she rotated. She also had a problem with racoons and again the aussie kept them away. She had two female aussies who were very serious about protecting the house and the fenced in areas around it. This is another reason to have dogs to take care of watching the flocks and herds. And, yes RFR foxes do just kill, I'm not sure why this happens but it does, they often slaughter many and take one. I don't know if they get in a frenzy or what, they killed every single duck that night.

Toby's mom, We have foxes here in USA and we don't have 100's of rabid foxes, coyotes, wolves or racoons running around. There is always the occasional case of rabies now and again but you are in MUCH more danger of being bitten by a rabid dog than anything else. Even those cute little squirrels and chipmunks can carry rabies.

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Old 02-11-2013, 12:57 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Foxes.... Cute or Pest? (likely divisive thread)

I used to have an adult fox come on my porch every night and just sit there. He looked sick so I would throw out cat food for him. I didn't mind him sticking around. Well he got to where I could walk out on the porch with him and sit there and he would be beside me. My mom hated him, said he looked evil but I think he just wanted a friend . We did out sitting a few feet away from each other thing for about 2 years ( he was already about 2-3 years old). Suddenly it stopped, so I figured he passes away, since wild fox rarely live past 4 here. I've also bottle fed a baby fox at a friends house. They had just found it, didn't know what to do, I bottle fed it until the next morning and took it to a wildlife vet who takes care of orphaned wildlife. They're great animals IMO. They do what their nature is, what they were created to do.


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Old 02-11-2013, 02:10 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Way More babies are killed by dogs then foxes.... Maybe we should cull dogs to prevent it happening... Hmm actually I bet more people are killed by horses and cattle, let's be rid of them too while we're at it...
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:14 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I don't know the numbers, but fox and coyotes are both in the area. It wasn't until coyotes moved back into the area that stories of cats disappearing like crazy started being told. My friend who owns a male Dobe, male Rott, and female Rott mix had a coyote jump the four foot section of her chain link fence and get into it with her female Rott mix. So as of right now, fox are ok in my book. Coyotes, not so much.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:19 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lori Z View Post
...Toby's mom, We have foxes here in USA and we don't have 100's of rabid foxes, coyotes, wolves or racoons running around. There is always the occasional case of rabies now and again but you are in MUCH more danger of being bitten by a rabid dog than anything else. Even those cute little squirrels and chipmunks can carry rabies.
Just wanted to comment on the bolded portion...

1. As of 2010 we have over 6,000 rabid animals running around, and those only reflect what have been included as part of the CDC's surveillance program, which I am sure cannot account for every single animal in the wild within the United States.

2. As far as getting rabies from domestic animals, you would be most likely to contract rabies from a cat, not a dog.

Rabies surveillance in the United States during 2010 - Summary Statistics
(see Table 1 for details):

Total Cases: 6,155
Domestic Animals: 487
Cats: 303
Cattle: 71
Dogs: 69
Horses / Mules: 37
Goats / Sheep: 6
Other: 1
Wild Animals: 5,666
Raccoons: 2,246
Bats: 1,430
Skunks: 1,448
Foxes: 429
Other: 80
Rodents / Lagomorphs: 32
Humans: 2


Prevalence of Rabies in Wild Animals:

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/resources/...d-animals.html


Rabid Cats and Dogs Reported in the United States during 2010

Soure: http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/resources/...-and-dogs.html
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:19 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_discowhore View Post
Way More babies are killed by dogs then foxes....

Yes they are.
However we are not talking fatalities here, thankfully, rather we are talking about attacks which surely is bad enough.


Maybe we should cull dogs to prevent it happening...
We are not talking about dogs, but foxes.

If this incident had involved a dog wandering in from the street, attacking a 4 week old baby as it slept in its cot I would imagine no one would disagree that something had to be done about it.

In London Urban Fox numbers are estimated to be around 16 foxes per square mile, (2.6 kilometres).
In Rural areas the numbers are estimated to be around 0.5 - 5.7 foxes per square mile/Km2


Hmm actually I bet more people are killed by horses and cattle, let's be rid of them too while we're at it...
Undoubtedly Horses and Cattle do account for more fatalities than foxes, you have no argument from me regards. However, there are no feral horses or cattle (to my knowledge living/roaming around the streets of any of our towns and cities which cannot be said to be the case in relation to foxes.

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Old 02-11-2013, 03:36 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Wow I had no idea. However I am in California so see no dogs or cat dots there. LOL. I knew that wild animals got rabies and I thought racoons were the worst then squirrels. Consider me educated, I had no idea. Sorry Toby's mom apparently you would have 100's of foxes running around with rabies if your countries carried it. Interesting... I wonder why there was a such a spike with racoons? I forgot about bats...geesh...


Quote:
Originally Posted by tnh317 View Post
Just wanted to comment on the bolded portion...

1. As of 2010 we have over 6,000 rabid animals running around, and those only reflect what have been included as part of the CDC's surveillance program, which I am sure cannot account for every single animal in the wild within the United States.

2. As far as getting rabies from domestic animals, you would be most likely to contract rabies from a cat, not a dog.

Rabies surveillance in the United States during 2010 - Summary Statistics
(see Table 1 for details):

Total Cases: 6,155
Domestic Animals: 487
Cats: 303
Cattle: 71
Dogs: 69
Horses / Mules: 37
Goats / Sheep: 6
Other: 1
Wild Animals: 5,666
Raccoons: 2,246
Bats: 1,430
Skunks: 1,448
Foxes: 429
Other: 80
Rodents / Lagomorphs: 32
Humans: 2


Prevalence of Rabies in Wild Animals:

Source: CDC - 2010 Surveillance: Rabies in Wild Animals; 1960-2010 - Rabies


Rabid Cats and Dogs Reported in the United States during 2010

Soure: CDC - 2010 Surveillance: Rabid Cats and Dogs Reported in the United States during 2010 - Rabies

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Old 02-11-2013, 03:49 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lori Z View Post
Wow I had no idea. However I am in California so see no dogs or cat dots there. LOL. I knew that wild animals got rabies and I thought racoons were the worst then squirrels. Consider me educated, I had no idea. Sorry Toby's mom apparently you would have 100's of foxes running around with rabies if your countries carried it. Interesting... I wonder why there was a such a spike with racoons? I forgot about bats...geesh...
Yes, obviously at least for dogs and cats it's not much of an issue in California (I think there are only 2 tiny red dots for dogs in northern part of the state).

If you click the link for the detailed summary it gives a state by state breakdown, California's total number of reported cases was 175 (which does include 2 dogs), 144 of those cases were from bats. That number is relatively small given it's size. Given the landscape and amount of uninhabited areas in the state that might reflect the low end. Some of the smaller but much more densely populated states have higher numbers. For example New York City, which is reported separately, had 145 cases (and no, none of those were rodents).

I also find the raccoon spike both interesting, and a bit scary...
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:56 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Yes something would be done if a dog bit a baby, that one dog would be PTS, but no one here would be screaming for the blood of all dogs. Sorry but I think those parents are dumb for leaving doors open in that situation, any animal could have walked in. I don't leave my front door wide open to the street to invite straying dogs in, because they might come in and hurt one of my pets.

The wild animals were there first, IMO they are not in the wrong, they are just trying to survive and people need to find a better way to live alongside them if they want to go live in or near beautiful wild spaces.... Slaughtering hundreds of animals because they might hurt one human one day isn't right in my book... It reminds me a little of BSL... Blame the deed, not the breed (or species as the case may be).

Hate foxes? Move to NZ, you can enjoy an almost wildlife free environment
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:59 PM   #40 (permalink)
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We had lots of racoons in the mountains and they can be very aggressive. I'm thinking now of summer and how many bats we get in the evenings by the pool. Eli hates bats and chases them. I believe bats are good for the environment but am not happy with the rabies stat shown in this study. Can possums get rabies...probaby, I'll look that up. Rabies or not I am a wild animal fan.


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Yes, obviously at least for dogs and cats it's not much of an issue in California (I think there are only 2 tiny red dots for dogs in northern part of the state).

If you click the link for the detailed summary it gives a state by state breakdown, California's total number of reported cases was 175 (which does include 2 dogs), 144 of those cases were from bats. That number is relatively small given it's size. Given the landscape and amount of uninhabited areas in the state that might reflect the low end. Some of the smaller but much more densely populated stated have higher numbers. For example New York City, which is reported separately, had 145 cases (and no, none of those were rodents).

I also find the raccoon spike both interesting, and a bit scary...
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:18 PM   #41 (permalink)
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they would be a pest if you have chickens, rabbits , goats , young cattle, cats who roam freely at night, or small dogs left unattended outside at night. If you are not caring for the safety of these types of creatures you may consider them cute. My last experience with a coyote or fox was when i had female goat days away from giving birth. Locked in the barn in stall with her kid from the previous year. Horror is all i can say!
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:23 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Cats that roam freely at night ARE pests! Good on the foxes and coyotes for eating them lol.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:32 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Yes something would be done if a dog bit a baby, that one dog would be PTS, but no one here would be screaming for the blood of all dogs. Sorry but I think those parents are dumb for leaving doors open in that situation, any animal could have walked in. I don't leave my front door wide open to the street to invite straying dogs in, because they might come in and hurt one of my pets.

The wild animals were there first, IMO they are not in the wrong, they are just trying to survive and people need to find a better way to live alongside them if they want to go live in or near beautiful wild spaces.... Slaughtering hundreds of animals because they might hurt one human one day isn't right in my book... It reminds me a little of BSL... Blame the deed, not the breed (or species as the case may be).

Hate foxes? Move to NZ, you can enjoy an almost wildlife free environment
In the case of the attacks we are not talking about living in or near beautiful wild spaces, we are talking about towns and cities, in this case London.

As for leaving the front door open to the street, I doubt very much you will find anyone in the UK who would do this. I believe in each case the foxes gained access through back doors which lead into gardens.

I believe also that foxes prior to WWII were virtually unheard of in London, so their migration into the city is somewhat recent.

And I do not hate foxes, in there natural environ they have their place and I enjoy seeing them as much as the next person. In my chicken coup or a childs bedroom erm, no, sorry.

I am not advocating wholesale slaughter, but I do advocate control.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:37 PM   #44 (permalink)
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How are all those foxes getting in to people's houses? If they're such a prolific problem, I'd hope that people in this area know that leaving access for an animal the size of a fox to come in is pretty risky in general, not just for foxes.

That said, there has recently been a problem in Louisiana with farmed mule deer and whitetail deer spreading Chronic Wasting Disease into wild populations. Most believe that the infected deer have been shipped into the state from Amish breeding operations in Pennsylvania. It's a relatively new disease, so biologically narrowly understood, and there is no treatment available. We are actively proliferating a disease that we do not understand to wild populations that were previously left unexposed.

But that story and your fox story strike a chord with me and how I feel about man's interactions with nature. Hopefully no honest self-reflecting person can look at the human race and think that it is in any way beneficial for life on earth for us to be here. If humans were to be stricken from the earth, life would flourish. As it stands, our interactions may soon ruin it for every form of life here, ourselves included.

It seems as if our societal norms infer that we should act now, and fix what goes wrong later. I know it can be devastating to have your whole flock of chickens killed by a fox, but we must outstmart the foxes, not kill them on sight. It was that mentality that led to the endagerment and near annihilation of the Gray Wolves of the western US.

Don't leave your doors open for foxes to come in and knaw on your baby's hands. If you have a chicken coop that is somewhat unsecured, get a better chicken coop. If you don't want bears rummaging through dumpsters, get bear-proof dumpsters. WE need to adapt to the changes we've caused, not the wildlife.

But maybe for me a lot of this goes back to my hate of current and long-standing agriculture practices in general.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:41 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Nature loves balance.

Who says mankind always has to have the upper hand? for example, we choose to coop up a bunch chickens that we put into egg slavery and plan to kill and eat ourselves. Maybe nature doesn't agree with us always having the say. A chicken coop - built and stocked by man - is like a grocery store to the fox. Plus mankind takes away natural animal habitat and food sources - the animals want to survive and maybe Mother nature supports that notion.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:09 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Who says mankind always has to have the upper hand? Mankind!
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:14 PM   #47 (permalink)
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watch out for the ninja foxes...
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:46 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Foxes.... Cute or Pest? (likely divisive thread)

Pest. Grew up on a sheep and chicken hobby farm just outside of Ottawa. We lost quite a few new born lambs and chickens to them. A fox didn't last to long near the farm without being shot at or a hound dog taking off after it.

I find them a beautiful and sleek animal. But on a farm, you protect your livestock.


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Old 02-11-2013, 07:48 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I used to have an adult fox come on my porch every night and just sit there. He looked sick so I would throw out cat food for him. I didn't mind him sticking around. Well he got to where I could walk out on the porch with him and sit there and he would be beside me. My mom hated him, said he looked evil but I think he just wanted a friend . We did out sitting a few feet away from each other thing for about 2 years ( he was already about 2-3 years old). Suddenly it stopped, so I figured he passes away, since wild fox rarely live past 4 here. I've also bottle fed a baby fox at a friends house. They had just found it, didn't know what to do, I bottle fed it until the next morning and took it to a wildlife vet who takes care of orphaned wildlife. They're great animals IMO. They do what their nature is, what they were created to do.


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We had one who hung out around the horse barn. Sometimes, if I was very quiet when I arrived in the mornings to feed, I'd catch him still curled up at my horse's feet, in a pile of hay and bedding.

He always just jumped up, blinked at me, and scurried off. Far as I know, he never caused a bit of trouble around the barn, and I was quite sad to see him hideously injured by a steel jaw leg trap one day. He did not survive his injuries and it was not a nice quick death.

I've never known of anyone have a fox behave the way some of you guys are describing. Most people on my road raise chickens, goats, even pygmy goats, rabbits, emus, horses, donkeys, pigs, quail, gamecocks (ergh), and human children.

We have quite a few foxes, and have never seen the kind of devastation that is being described--nor did we ever have that when I was a child, growing up very rurally.

Now, the coyotes, which have been re-intro'd by some geniuses at DNR several years ago, have overpopulated and gotten out of hand. You do have to be very careful, about them, but again, folks just build enclosures assuming raccoons, foxes, coyotes, and bears are going to try to get in.

On the rabies issue, Toby'shuman, if you did not even know there were two forms of the disease, perhaps you're becoming overly afraid of the unknown? The whole point was, the chances of contracting the disease from an animal who can't, you know, WALK, is pretty daggone infinitesimal. I guess you could hold it down and rub your hand with an old open wound right across its tongue, and really try to work that saliva down in there.

Lori--bats are the scariest, to me. I actually like the little guys, because of the trillions of mosquitoes and other pests they eliminate, but most bat bites aren't *felt* and if you would be unlucky enough to be bitten by one with rabies, that might mean you wouldn't know in time to get proper treatment.

I once, when I worked for a large animal vet, had to assist with euthanization of a rabid horse. He had the furious form. It was one of the single most stunning experiences of my life, and I felt so bad for horse and owner.

I always vaccinated my horses against rabies. Too many skunks, bats and raccoons hang around barns.

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People are so detached from country life now,they think every creature is a Disney character. No idea where their food comes from and yet want to cuddle mangy 'basil brushes'
Not sure to whom you might have been referring here, but if I was included, see above
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:07 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I have to pause and think, too, of tradition, wrapped around foxes.. would we have "tally ho"? and red riding suits? and blaring horns? and steeplechase? and beautiful show of horses and horsemanship, and working of dogs...

so, die, cute little fox, die!!! Tradition must live on. Tally ho!
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