The Politics Thread...

[VZ-Doberman]

Originally Posted by Dictator

It is also a fact that if a pregnancy is not interupted whether by abortion or naturally there will be a baby.

I've been reading about Russia stopping adoptions to the US. It seems adopting in the US is difficult. Parents don't want to give up their parental rights, no single women/men, couple is too old, etc. While all this is going on the children are getting older and that in itself makes adopting harder. The Adopters biggest fear is that the biological parent/parents will come back and want the child.

The banning of adoption was a political move. From what the news stations have reported it was a tit for tat. So now those kids will spend their childhood being warehoused. Many of them have physical and/or mental issues. Special needs kids are difficult to place no matter what country they're in. There was a case here recently where a Russian boy was adopted by an American couple and then sent him back for him having problems. [/quote]

Originally Posted by Dictator

It is a complicated issue.

Yes it is.....

[VZ-Doberman]

Originally Posted by River

Yeah, that's a good summary of part of the adoption problem.
The other half of the adoption problem is that adoption is expensive enough that a lot of people can't afford it. You have to pay anywhere from $7,000 to 30,000 to adopt the baby PLUS the cost of raising that baby. And when you adopt a kid, the expenses are all yours. Sure, you get tax breaks for being a parent. In that way, it's no different than giving birth to a child of your own.

But the actual costs of adoption are prohibitive for a lot of people. Where's all the outcry over that? We have kids who are basically doomed to spend their lives in foster care. While I can see some costs as being necessary, just like with dog rescues, I wonder at a $30,000 price tag to adopt a child. Surely there's state funds already in place, or that we could find, to help get kids into homes and out of foster care.

I agree that kids need to move from being warehoused to a loving home. The problem is that there aren't enough homes willing to adopt an older child. Everyone wants that tiny little baby....the "clean" slate. All these people who protest places like Planned Parenthood should do what they preach. Go and adopt a child that needs a home.

I agree the costs associated with adoption is out of line.

[River]

So Ron Paul is the magic pill that will somehow fix all our problems? He could somehow wave a magic wand and make the Senate, Congress, and the office of the President actually get along, work together, and be willing to compromise? He's the.... dare I say it... messiah?

I had no idea. My mind is blown.

[River]

Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman

I agree that kids need to move from being warehoused to a loving home. The problem is that there aren't enough homes willing to adopt an older child. Everyone wants that tiny little baby....the "clean" slate. All these people who protest places like Planned Parenthood should do what they preach. Go and adopt a child that needs a home.

I agree the costs associated with adoption is out of line.

Yep yep, I'm aware of just how lucky I was to be ditched at a hospital as a newborn. If I'd been older, instead of being adopted myself, I could've spent my childhood in foster care. I am lucky.

I'm also lucky that my parents weren't fixated on having a child of 'their blood.' That being a major reason why some people don't want to adopt. It isn't really 'theirs.' The thing is, they always made it clear that I am theirs. And they're stuck with me. After all, they're ones who adopted me from the pound.

And to anyone out there is thinking of adopting, thank you.

[melbrod]

I keep seeing as a justification for the existence of abortion that it is the LAW.

The LAW is made by people--sometimes a majority of the people are in favor of it, sometimes it comes into being simply by the actions of a small organized special interest group. But it can be changed, if enough people express their opinions about the law's unreasonableness.

When something is the "LAW", it does not mean that one cannot express a differing opinion about it, and advocate that it be removed from the books.

If "choice" is such a vital matter (because a pregnancy might ruin a woman's life?), how about allowing doctors, nurses, pharmacists the "choice" of not performing an act which goes against their conscience, rather than forcing them out of business (which kinda messes up their lives too).

[VZ-Doberman]

Originally Posted by melbrod

I keep seeing as a justification for the existence of abortion that it is the LAW.

A law that was brought about because of the majority of people were in favor of it.

Originally Posted by melbrod

The LAW is made by people--sometimes a majority of the people are in favor of it, sometimes it comes into being simply by the actions of a small organized special interest group. But it can be changed, if enough people express their opinions about the law's unreasonableness.

Agreed, a law can be changed. We now allow women to vote, discrimination is a no no.

Originally Posted by melbrod

When something is the "LAW", it does not mean that one cannot express a differing opinion about it, and advocate that it be removed from the books.

Agreed, no one is stifling your right to voice your opinion. Just as you cannot prevent a woman exercising her right to choice.

Originally Posted by melrod

If "choice" is such a vital matter (because a pregnancy might ruin a woman's life?), how about allowing doctors, nurses, pharmacists the "choice" of not performing an act which goes against their conscience, rather than forcing them out of business (which kinda messes up their lives too).

Because going against their conscience prevents a woman who's legal right to choice is being taken away.

Example:

I am vehemently against smoking. I don't smoke and I don't want it around me. And I am vocal about it, but if I had a job somewhere that sold tobacco products and refused to sell those products to customers because of my opinion on smoking, that would be wrong. Those customers have a legal right to purchase tobacco products.

It is inaccurate to refer to people as "pro abortion" when actually they are "pro choice".

[dobermansrule]

Originally Posted by River

So Ron Paul is the magic pill that will somehow fix all our problems? He could somehow wave a magic wand and make the Senate, Congress, and the office of the President actually get along, work together, and be willing to compromise? He's the.... dare I say it... messiah?

I had no idea. My mind is blown.

yep, I hear you. My personal opinion is office of president in some ways is irrelevant anymore - except for the ability to issue directives and commander in chief role. I wrote in Quincy for president - given the current gridlock, he'd be as effective as anybody.

[VZ-Doberman]

Just on CNN...

Rand Paul's son arrested at an airport for underage drinking.

[GRAYGHOST]

Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman

Just on CNN...

Rand Paul's son arrested at an airport for underage drinking.

This has to do What with the discussion of murdering babies?

People actually still watch CNN?

[dobermansrule]

Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman

Just on CNN...

Rand Paul's son arrested at an airport for underage drinking.

oooo.... that's a biggie....

[falnfenix]

Originally Posted by GRAYGHOST

This has to do What with the discussion of murdering babies?

People actually still watch CNN?

the thread is called The Politics Thread, in case you forgot.

[Dictator]

Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know how accurate this article is but it does give an interesting read on abortion in the US from both points of view.

[VZ-Doberman]

Originally Posted by GRAYGHOST

This has to do What with the discussion of murdering babies?

People actually still watch CNN?

What is the name of this thread??

Now you're attempting to dictate what can be posted. Shame on you.

[VZ-Doberman]

Originally Posted by dobermansrule

oooo.... that's a biggie....

I bet it will be at the Rand's dinner table tonight.

[River]

Originally Posted by dobermansrule

yep, I hear you. My personal opinion is office of president in some ways is irrelevant anymore - except for the ability to issue directives and commander in chief role. I wrote in Quincy for president - given the current gridlock, he'd be as effective as anybody.

That and the president is a handy person to lay the blame on when the real problems go far beyond the office of the President. They blamed Bush (they still do), they blame Obama, shoot, some people still blame Nixon for things- but yet the president isn't the be all and end all of decision making.

If Quincy believes in long walks in parks, swimming in rivers, and plenty of relaxation time, I'd vote for him. Griffin could be his VP. His puppy dog eyes and excellent people skills would be a real asset to Quincy's campaign, since he can really connect with the voters and make them think he's one of them.

[VZ-Doberman]

Sad but when he moves to DC he'll get that pack mentality. I think there's something in the water.

[melbrod]

Quote VZ Doberman:
"I am vehemently against smoking. I don't smoke and I don't want it around me. And I am vocal about it, but if I had a job somewhere that sold tobacco products and refused to sell those products to customers because of my opinion on smoking, that would be wrong. Those customers have a legal right to purchase tobacco products."


You could always get a job selling something else at another store. The case of a doctor who is prevented from practicing what he has spent years training for because he is against abortion and wishes to direct patients who want an abortion to another practitioner just doesn't seem to be the equivalent (to me). Neither is a pack of cigarettes equivalent to a human life.

Check out the abortion statistics in this article by Gallup--seems the figures are changing--the more Obama pushes abortion issues to the left, the more people seems to go to the right with their opinions.[img]http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx[img] In any case, the numbers who are strongly against abortion are about even with the numbers who are strongly in favor of it being allowed. Most folks are in the middle and want it available only under specific conditions. But (except for age of fetus) that is not how it is set up currently.

Quote VZ Doberman:
"It is inaccurate to refer to people as "pro abortion" when actually they are "pro choice"."

A quibble--Let's call "Pro Abortion being available to everyone" instead, then.

[PJH]

Originally Posted by falnfenix

every. last. person. in this thread insisting that abortion should not be a right, either go adopt a kid or keep quiet...please. unless you've actually been through the adoption process, you simply have no idea what more unwanted children in the system will do.

Well I know I will get flamed for this old fashioned concept but how about people practice some self control? When did personal responsibility get thrown out the window? And another old fashioned very unpopular concept....what if, just what if sex was kept in the confines of marriage babies were actually born into families? There would be no need for a system.

My husband and I have three biological children. I am a huge advocate for adoption and caring for orphans and we plan on adopting in the future. I also have many friends who have adopted within the states and internationally as well. One friend currently has adopted two from China, one from Kenya and are currently working on a Hatian adoption. My sister in law has adopted 5 children within the US, all with special needs. Her second adoption was a 5 year old boy who is now 15 and suffers from attachment disorder. He is unable to bond with people and detaches himself from any feeling associated toward people. After 10 years of counseling and intense therapy he still becomes violent and is unsafe to live with. He is well on his way to becoming a full blown sociopath who will most likely eventually hurt or kill someone before he will be able to receive the help and care he needs. Adopting older children out of the system is often not for the faint of heart and sadly often times their needs are beyond our ability to meet.

[VZ-Doberman]

Originally Posted by melbrod

Quote VZ Doberman:
"I am vehemently against smoking. I don't smoke and I don't want it around me. And I am vocal about it, but if I had a job somewhere that sold tobacco products and refused to sell those products to customers because of my opinion on smoking, that would be wrong. Those customers have a legal right to purchase tobacco products."


You could always get a job selling something else at another store. The case of a doctor who is prevented from practicing what he has spent years training for because he is against abortion and wishes to direct patients who want an abortion to another practitioner just doesn't seem to be the equivalent (to me).

That was used as an example. Doctors do have the option of performing abortions. The premise is the same.

Originally Posted by melfod

Neither is a pack of cigarettes equivalent to a human life.

Never said it was.

Originally Posted by melrod

Check out the abortion statistics in this article by Gallup--seems the figures are changing--the more Obama pushes abortion issues to the left, the more people seems to go to the right with their opinions.[img]http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx[img] In any case, the numbers who are strongly against abortion are about even with the numbers who are strongly in favor of it being allowed. Most folks are in the middle and want it available only under specific conditions. But (except for age of fetus) that is not how it is set up currently.

And the law still stands. Choice over religious doctrine.

Originally Posted by melrod

Quote VZ Doberman:
"It is inaccurate to refer to people as "pro abortion" when actually they are "pro choice"."

A quibble--Let's call "Pro Abortion being available to everyone" instead, then.

Not a quibble.....an inaccuracy, and an intentional one.

It is choice.....choice to avail yourself to birth control, sterilization, abortion, prenatal health care, sex education, breast exams, pap tests or fertility/reproductive issues. These are services provided by Planned Parenthood. It is a freedom guaranteed by the supreme court and state courts. No one is trampling on your rights but some see fit to attempt to trample others' rights.

People are entitled to their opinions, they are not entitled to dictating how others should live their lives.

[Rosemary]

Birth control is not 100% fool-proof. For example, after my neice was born, my sister-in-law went on the pill. She got pregnant. After my nephew was born, she had an IUD implanted. She got pregnant again. After she miscarried, she had a tubal ligation. Two years later, their second daughter was born. Oops? She said if she got pregnant after the hysterectomy (needed because of complications with the last pregnancy), she was suing someone.

[VZ-Doberman]

Originally Posted by PJH

Well I know I will get flamed for this old fashioned concept but how about people practice some self control?

There have been no flames here. Considering the subjects discussed this has been quite a civil discussion. So I guess my question to you is why drop a post declaring victim status?

Originally Posted by PJH

When did personal responsibility get thrown out the window? And another old fashioned very unpopular concept....what if, just what if sex was kept in the confines of marriage babies were actually born into families? There would be no need for a system.

There has always been a lack of personal responsibility amongst people. Perhaps with greater access to information we are more aware of it now. As to the sex question, sex has never been confined to marriage. One needs only to look at recorded history for evidence of that. Even children from marriages sometimes wind up in foster care. There will always be a need for the system.

Originally Posted by PJH

My husband and I have three biological children. I am a huge advocate for adoption and caring for orphans and we plan on adopting in the future. I also have many friends who have adopted within the states and internationally as well. One friend currently has adopted two from China, one from Kenya and are currently working on a Hatian adoption. My sister in law has adopted 5 children within the US, all with special needs. Her second adoption was a 5 year old boy who is now 15 and suffers from attachment disorder. He is unable to bond with people and detaches himself from any feeling associated toward people. After 10 years of counseling and intense therapy he still becomes violent and is unsafe to live with. He is well on his way to becoming a full blown sociopath who will most likely eventually hurt or kill someone before he will be able to receive the help and care he needs. Adopting older children out of the system is often not for the faint of heart and sadly often times their needs are beyond our ability to meet.

I commend you and your friends for adopting.

I don't know if the foster care system makes damaged children or if they arrive that way. Perhaps it's a little of both.

[Thor_Red]

I've noticed that none of the pro-lifers is touching on the topic of IVF clinics. Why is nobody bombing or picketing them? They knowingly create surplus embryos that will later be destroyed as bio waste. And they do it by the hundreds of thousands. At least don't have a double standard. If you are against abortions you also need to shut all the IVF clinics down.

[VZ-Doberman]

Thor-Red.....

When I read your post the first thing that popped into my head was the scene from Frankenstein where the villagers storm the castle wielding pitchforks and torches.

[dobermansrule]

Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman

Thor-Red.....

When I read your post the first thing that popped into my head was the scene from Frankenstein where the villagers storm the castle wielding pitchforks and torches.

thus the political party I founded... The Torches and Pitchforks Party.

Our party platform is defenestration (throwing them out the windows).

[VZ-Doberman]

Certainly beats the expense and time consuming formality of a trial.