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Old 01-06-2013, 03:33 PM   #3451 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GRAYGHOST View Post
Good; They should not receive taxpayer money. The murder of the unborn is their largest source of income.
Inaccurate. A simple google search turned up exactly how PP spends their income, and less than 40% of their revenue is from abortions. Even if abortions are their largest source of income, it still amounts to less than 40% of total revenues. It's misleading to say that, since a full 60% of their revenue comes from things other than abortion.

38.4% of Planned Parenthood's 2009 income is from abortion.

And for a (still-biased) but factually accurate site, at least where PP's funding comes from, national right to life's annual report, read this.

I don't mind a debate, but tossing out inaccurate statements to make it seem like PP depends on abortions as their largest source of revenue isn't right. Settle for "largest single source, but still less than 40% of their total revenue" if you want to be factually accurate.
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:36 PM   #3452 (permalink)
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See, this is what you don't GET. People are talking about CHOICE. You, on the other hand, can't grasp that. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion. IT IS A CHOICE A LEGAL CHOICE. You want to take a woman's RIGHT to choose away.
And yeah, that's a big part of the argument for pro-abortion. Personal choice. You make your choices, you take responsibility for them.

I like to add in that while it is a woman's right to choose, that she must live with the consequences of that choice. And that choice should never be made lightly, like the woman in that other post, who got pregnant and then aborted because it didn't make her boyfriend stay with her. That's just sick.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:34 PM   #3453 (permalink)
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See, this is what you don't GET. People are talking about CHOICE. You, on the other hand, can't grasp that. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion. IT IS A CHOICE A LEGAL CHOICE. You want to take a woman's RIGHT to choose away.
Young Women/Women are also making a choice to possibly get pregnant by not practicing birth control or having their partner do so.

Condoms are readily available can be bought Female or Male and I don't believe you have to be a minimum age to buy them. They also prevent STDs and Aids.

The simplest solution is responsible sex; but, our country seems to have fallen by the wayside with respect to responsibility.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:38 PM   #3454 (permalink)
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Dictator.....

Common sense and personal responsibility have all but disappeared from our culture. Sad.....but it is a reality.
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:07 PM   #3455 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman View Post
See, this is what you don't GET. People are talking about CHOICE. You, on the other hand, can't grasp that. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion. IT IS A CHOICE A LEGAL CHOICE. You want to take a woman's RIGHT to choose away.
The choice to murder a helpless, unborn baby. What is the choice for the baby?
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:45 PM   #3456 (permalink)
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The choice to murder a helpless, unborn baby. What is the choice for the baby?

What you refer to as "an unborn baby" is your opinion. And you are entitled to it. The reality is that that is not how the law sees it. That's not opinion but fact.

If you're that adamant about this why don't you and others who share your opinion adopt all the children that are in the foster care system needing a loving home? Or is it you aren't concerned about those children?
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:09 PM   #3457 (permalink)
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See, this is what you don't GET. People are talking about CHOICE. You, on the other hand, can't grasp that. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion. IT IS A CHOICE A LEGAL CHOICE. You want to take a woman's RIGHT to choose away.
I am just curious as to how killing babies became simply a "choice" in the first place? How did that choice ever become a morally viable option?


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Old 01-06-2013, 09:55 PM   #3458 (permalink)
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I am just curious as to how killing babies became simply a "choice" in the first place? How did that choice ever become a morally viable option?
Killing babies is immoral and illegal. An abortion is terminating a pregnancy. It is your opinion that it is killing babies. And that opinion is not shared by many men and women in this country. Nor is it shared by our legal system.

Forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy that is either unwanted, the result of rape, incest or detrimental to her health is immoral and illegal.

The "choice" to terminate a pregnancy is between a woman and her doctor.

That "choice" is a right guaranteed by law.

No one is forcing abortion on women. But there are some who want to force their opinion on women and deny them their right to make a choice re their bodies.

Now I have a question for you......do you support an abortion if the pregnancy is the result of incest, rape or is detrimental to the woman's health?
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:12 PM   #3459 (permalink)
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Now I have a question for you......do you support an abortion if the pregnancy is the result of incest, rape or is detrimental to the woman's health?
Disturbingly, many pro-lifers still don't think those are justifiable reasons for an abortion. I personally would not want to carry a rape baby through pregnancy and be reminded of what happened to me every day for 18 years or so when I look that kid in the face.

Sick. Sick. Sick.

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Old 01-07-2013, 03:11 AM   #3460 (permalink)
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Disturbingly, many pro-lifers still don't think those are justifiable reasons for an abortion. I personally would not want to carry a rape baby through pregnancy and be reminded of what happened to me every day for 18 years or so when I look that kid in the face.

Sick. Sick. Sick.
I totally get this but it is and will always be impossible for me to get past the fact that this is a life with a beating heart, a future and a voice. Give the baby up for adoption. There are countless amounts of couples waiting and longing to hold a baby in their arms. To me it does not matter where they came from, it matters who they will become. And the honest truth is that when we speak of abortion and a women's right to choose, rape only accounts for less than two percent of unwanted pregnancies. I believe abortion as a convenient way to discard of an inconvenience, has encouraged irresponsible and out of control behavior in our society. Perhaps if the consequences were a little greater, people might think with their heads and not sex organs.

And regarding situations where the life of a mother is greatly at risk yes a baby should be taken. I have known several ladies who have suffered severe life threatening complications who's babies had to be taken very early and fought for survival. This is a tragedy and utterly different circumstance than an elective abortion born out of a desire to escape the consequences of poor choices.


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Old 01-07-2013, 04:37 AM   #3461 (permalink)
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i can't believe you're equating a product of rape with one of "poor choices."


not that it matters. women have always had the choice to do it, and they will always have that choice. make it illegal due to religious or "moral" beliefs and women will die due to poor care.

since when are women slaves to the parasite growing in their uterus?
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:19 AM   #3462 (permalink)
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.since when are women slaves to the parasite growing in their uterus?
Since the 98% of woman made the conscious choice to have unsafe sex. Live with the consequences of the decisions you make! Why is it so hard for people to grasp this? It is the exact same reason why divorce rates are so high, or depression is so prominent. People just can't seem to take responsibilities for their lives, or make the best of their decisions, it always seems to be whatever is easier is best in our society.... Even if that means murder...

And on another note, the reference to an unborn baby as a "parasite" made me physically ill. It is truly a shame you feel that way. I don't know why in the 2min it takes a baby to come out of the womb, a "parasite" becomes a valued, respected and (hopefully) loved member of family. I am sure you can in some way justify your term parasite for an unbaby, because a parasite is a organism that lives in another organism,its host (some call this Mom) and lives by sucking nutrients for the host (or Mom) to survive. To me, when you call a baby a "parasite" it is just another way to further emotionally detach yourself from the reality that the "Parasite" is actually an unborn human being. Remind me to get your friends and family to throw you (or you'r SO, don't know if you are a man or woman) a really awesome Parasite Party when you're expecting. Abortion, like divorce or prozak, is just another easy fix.

**I am not saying that divorce should NEVER happen there are times when divorce is justified. Nor am I saying that depression is not REAL, just that it is over "diagnosed" and in today's society it is often used as a excuse or crutch.

Just to clarify.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:30 AM   #3463 (permalink)
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i can't believe you're equating a product of rape with one of "poor choices."


not that it matters. women have always had the choice to do it, and they will always have that choice. make it illegal due to religious or "moral" beliefs and women will die due to poor care.

since when are women slaves to the parasite growing in their uterus?
If I gave the impression that I was including rape among people who make poor choices, I am sorry. That was not my intent! My point in saying what I did was to point out that rape has very little to do with why the majority of abortions happen yet it is used as one of the main reasons to justify it. Have you ever seen photos of an aborted baby? As early as 10 to 12 weeks there are perfectly formed arms, hands, fingers, legs and feet (which oddly enough look rather human) that have literally been torn apart and piled in a bloodied heap. Women are somehow led to believe that the 10 to 12 week baby inside their belly is some sort of unformed blob sucking the life out of them when in fact they have amazing human detail and a beating heart. And what about the reality of partial birth and late term abortions regularly practiced in the US, where fully developed babies are are ripped apart and discarded? Babies in utero feel the same pain as newly born babies who scream bloody murder receiving a simple shot. How is it ok to suck their brains out, dismember their bodies and throw them in the dumpster? I cannot even begin to wrap my head around this.


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Old 01-07-2013, 07:48 AM   #3464 (permalink)
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I totally get this but it is and will always be impossible for me to get past the fact that this is a life with a beating heart, a future and a voice. Give the baby up for adoption. There are countless amounts of couples waiting and longing to hold a baby in their arms. To me it does not matter where they came from, it matters who they will become. And the honest truth is that when we speak of abortion and a women's right to choose, rape only accounts for less than two percent of unwanted pregnancies. I believe abortion as a convenient way to discard of an inconvenience, has encouraged irresponsible and out of control behavior in our society. Perhaps if the consequences were a little greater, people might think with their heads and not sex organs.

And regarding situations where the life of a mother is greatly at risk yes a baby should be taken. I have known several ladies who have suffered severe life threatening complications who's babies had to be taken very early and fought for survival. This is a tragedy and utterly different circumstance than an elective abortion born out of a desire to escape the consequences of poor choices.
I see you believe in selective abortion (mother is at risk).

Whatever your views on abortion are and you are certainly entitled to those, to prevent or prohibit the women in this country from their legal right to choose is wrong. Even you have that right of choice and yours is not to have an abortion but to force your views, either based in your religion or your idea of what is moral, is morally and legally wrong. People have that right in this country to make choices. As long as those choices are legal, the self proclaimed moral can't take that right from them. It is your opinion that life begins at conception but until that opinion is held by doctors and legal community then the right to choice will stand.

And as for the "countless couple waiting to hold a baby in their arms" why don't they adopt the countless children languishing in foster care? That's the reality of this. Those "countless couples" only want certain children. They pick and choose what child gets a loving home and what child doesn't. I think the moral thing to do is help those kids. After all you posted it didn't matter where those children came from. Reality (again) is that it does matter where they came from....a great deal. Why aren't these kids a priority for the moral? Where aren't the moral and religiously correct protesting outside the state buildings where they process and place these kids?

The religious zealots have bombed, murdered and assaulted and harassed in their campaign to shut down facilities that provide legal health services to women.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:51 AM   #3465 (permalink)
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Might I add that if these were tiny innocent doberman puppies being torn limb from limb from their mothers womb perhaps the outcry would be different?


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Old 01-07-2013, 07:56 AM   #3466 (permalink)
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They don't abort a pregnant dog they remove the uterus. Although there is a drug that can be given that will prevent the pregnancy from taking if given right away.

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Old 01-07-2013, 08:28 AM   #3467 (permalink)
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And as for the "countless couple waiting to hold a baby in their arms" why don't they adopt the countless children languishing in foster care? That's the reality of this. Those "countless couples" only want certain children. They pick and choose what child gets a loving home and what child doesn't. I think the moral thing to do is help those kids. After all you posted it didn't matter where those children came from. Reality (again) is that it does matter where they came from....a great deal. Why aren't these kids a priority for the moral? Where aren't the moral and religiously correct protesting outside the state buildings where they process and place these kids?
Yeah, that's a good summary of part of the adoption problem.

The other half of the adoption problem is that adoption is expensive enough that a lot of people can't afford it. You have to pay anywhere from $7,000 to 30,000 to adopt the baby PLUS the cost of raising that baby. And when you adopt a kid, the expenses are all yours. Sure, you get tax breaks for being a parent. In that way, it's no different than giving birth to a child of your own.

But the actual costs of adoption are prohibitive for a lot of people. Where's all the outcry over that? We have kids who are basically doomed to spend their lives in foster care. While I can see some costs as being necessary, just like with dog rescues, I wonder at a $30,000 price tag to adopt a child. Surely there's state funds already in place, or that we could find, to help get kids into homes and out of foster care.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:42 AM   #3468 (permalink)
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I see you believe in selective abortion (mother is at risk).

Whatever your views on abortion are and you are certainly entitled to those, to prevent or prohibit the women in this country from their legal right to choose is wrong. Even you have that right of choice and yours is not to have an abortion but to force your views, either based in your religion or your idea of what is moral, is morally and legally wrong. People have that right in this country to make choices. As long as those choices are legal, the self proclaimed moral can't take that right from them. It is your opinion that life begins at conception but until that opinion is held by doctors and legal community then the right to choice will stand.

And as for the "countless couple waiting to hold a baby in their arms" why don't they adopt the countless children languishing in foster care? That's the reality of this. Those "countless couples" only want certain children. They pick and choose what child gets a loving home and what child doesn't. I think the moral thing to do is help those kids. After all you posted it didn't matter where those children came from. Reality (again) is that it does matter where they came from....a great deal. Why aren't these kids a priority for the moral? Where aren't the moral and religiously correct protesting outside the state buildings where they process and place these kids?

The religious zealots have bombed, murdered and assaulted and harassed in their campaign to shut down facilities that provide legal health services to women.
I am well familiar with the foster care system and adoption which is another thread in itself of disgusting proportions! While not impossible, it is often an extreme challenge to adopt a child who has been in the system for any length of time. Often these children suffer from detachment disorder which is an absolute nightmare. I sadly have much experience with this and am currently going through this with my family. That is entirely different subject however!

I do not believe that taking every measure to preserve the life of a baby and being unsuccessful at preserving the life of both mother and baby has anything to do with elective abortion. As I stated before, this is a tragedy and is accompanied by grief over the loss of a child, not a callous disregard for life.

I realize that abortion is a choice for women today and that it will indeed remain that way. I just wish our society had the integrity in the first place to never recognize murder as a choice. I am indeed a Christian and will be the first to say that many who profess to be such are complete idiots and lack the love and compassion of the Jesus they claim to follow. It is sad.

And yes perhaps the puppy example was a bit over the top! However, the point was that I often feel there is more outrage over the mistreatment of animals than the lives of the unborn. To me that is sad, to those who view babies as disposable, it is not. To each his own.


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Old 01-07-2013, 08:47 AM   #3469 (permalink)
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[quote=TheStig;1223233]I don't know what any of this is about...I'm late to the dinner table, as usual.

But...

Those of you (insert snide remark here), that didn't either vote for, or write in Ron Paul for this past election...

Slap yourself

I live in a state that won't accept write ins if the candidate lost in the primaries, but I wrote him in anyways, with a big red sharpie. I wrote Ron Paul or suck it!


You spoiled a ballot and your vote (depending on the jurisdiction) might not have counted in any race. They will take your ballot and put it in a box until the Official State Librarian, in Illinois where I live that would be the Secretary of State, gets a destruction order and has them shredded.

Ya, you showed them.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:54 AM   #3470 (permalink)
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Out of curiosity, what about IVF clinics. Are you ok with those?
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:06 AM   #3471 (permalink)
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What you refer to as "an unborn baby" is your opinion. And you are entitled to it. The reality is that that is not how the law sees it. That's not opinion but fact.

If you're that adamant about this why don't you and others who share your opinion adopt all the children that are in the foster care system needing a loving home? Or is it you aren't concerned about those children?
It is also a fact that if a pregnancy is not interupted whether by abortion or naturally there will be a baby.

I've been reading about Russia stopping adoptions to the US. It seems adopting in the US is difficult. Parents don't want to give up their parental rights, no single women/men, couple is too old, etc. While all this is going on the children are getting older and that in itself makes adopting harder. The Adopters biggest fear is that the biological parent/parents will come back and want the child.

It is a complicated issue.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:57 AM   #3472 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman
What you refer to as "an unborn baby" is your opinion. And you are entitled to it. The reality is that that is not how the law sees it. That's not opinion but fact.

It is also a fact that what the "law" considers an "unborn baby" can change any day. It has changed back and forth many times. When the Supreme swings back more conservatively we should EXPECT change.

It amazes me that the very people who are willing to kill an UNBORN BABY will be outside a prison protesting when a convicted murder is put to death.

No matter what the "LAW" says I will stick to my OPINION that unless a mothers life is in jepardy ABORTION IS MURDER.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:31 AM   #3473 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman
What you refer to as "an unborn baby" is your opinion. And you are entitled to it. The reality is that that is not how the law sees it. That's not opinion but fact.

It is also a fact that what the "law" considers an "unborn baby" can change any day. It has changed back and forth many times. When the Supreme swings back more conservatively we should EXPECT change.

It amazes me that the very people who are willing to kill an UNBORN BABY will be outside a prison protesting when a convicted murder is put to death.

No matter what the "LAW" says I will stick to my OPINION that unless a mothers life is in jepardy ABORTION IS MURDER.

And you are entitled to that opinion. FYI I am very much for the death penalty.

Only my opinion here but I doubt you will ever see the repeal of womens' choice.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:35 AM   #3474 (permalink)
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every. last. person. in this thread insisting that abortion should not be a right, either go adopt a kid or keep quiet...please. unless you've actually been through the adoption process, you simply have no idea what more unwanted children in the system will do.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:39 AM   #3475 (permalink)
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Sadly, I'll have to reference the first scene in the movie 300 and correlate that with the animal world.

What do most animal mothers do if they have offspring that are born...different?

Off with their heads, that's what. Dunzo, wiped off the map, finished, capoot...no longer with us.

Now, I realize that is not the same as pro life/pro choice, but the only thing that separates humans from the workings of the animal kingdom is emotion.

I personally believe that before one can just simply have a child...a field of tests/forms/paperwork/waiting period, etc., etc. must be in order to actually make sure the couple want to produce a child.

All this 'accidental' pregnancy and reasons to give abortion as a word, true meaning, needs to stop and be stopped by rule of iron fist.

As for the testing and what not, before one would be allowed to have a child...that'd help rule out anyone carrying the genes for disease or even preventing stupid people from procreating.

It's a harsh world folks, time to put the kids to sleep and wake up and stop being so sensitive. There are genetic diseases present today, simply because someone had too much 'heart' and was pro life. Now that diseased or otherwise handicapped child has to live their life in probable torment because their parents were selfish bastards.

"But we love him, so we want to keep him alive...even though he is in a complete vegetative state, can't survive without this huge medical wheelchair that costs thousands and thousands of dollars...

Maybe that makes me cold hearted, but that is wrong. And that is why the human species has the problems we have today.

What's the penalty for teenagers who have no business being parents, having children out of wed lock? They get a reality tv show on mtv.

Lastly, people need to mind their own business. I don't particularly care what other people do, it's a free country...however, I do start to care when I get taxed to help fund some of this bull****.

People on welfare who are perfectly capable of working...probably could have prevented the entire welfare system with selective breeding...weed out the idiots and usurpers from the get go, lol.

Ron Paul would have fixed all of that...by the way.

Wasted breath though ladies and gents...until the super wealthy are taken out of control, the government either blown up or replaced with new people, 1/32 of it's overall size now, and the pussification of 'Merica turned around...why bother.
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