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Old 01-03-2013, 12:02 PM   #3401 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
dang. i agreed with what you said. not all Christians are bad. i know plenty who are perfectly fine human beings. it's the loudest who really cause problems.
is this country ready for radical Islam? remember, we have freedom of religion - right?
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:57 PM   #3402 (permalink)
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is this country ready for radical Islam? remember, we have freedom of religion - right?
Islam is already here. i'm not a fan of it, but i'm not a fan of Christians telling me what i can and cannot do with my body simply because it's against their religion. frankly, i find that to be just as bad as radical Islam.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:15 AM   #3403 (permalink)
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is this country ready for radical Islam? remember, we have freedom of religion - right?
Wait, where does radical Islam come in? I'm totally missing your point, DR. What point are you trying to make?

We do have freedom of religion, yes. We also have that line in the 1st Amendment that goes something like this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Which basically protects all of us from having a national religion. Radical religions, be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. aren't going to take over. But it seems like any time religion is brought up, especially if it's Christianity, someone has to throw out Islam as some sort of a red herring. Why? Do we need to scare everyone into accepting one set of radicals in order to prevent these mysterious radical Muslims from taking over the country?

Because honestly, that won't happen. Radical believers of ANY religion have no place in dictating that public law in the United States adhere to their religious beliefs. If anyone wants to live in a theocracy that badly, they have many options to choose from. The United States isn't one of those choices.

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Old 01-04-2013, 02:56 PM   #3404 (permalink)
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Wait, where does radical Islam come in? I'm totally missing your point, DR. What point are you trying to make?

We do have freedom of religion, yes. We also have that line in the 1st Amendment that goes something like this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Which basically protects all of us from having a national religion. Radical religions, be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. aren't going to take over. But it seems like any time religion is brought up, especially if it's Christianity, someone has to throw out Islam as some sort of a red herring. Why? Do we need to scare everyone into accepting one set of radicals in order to prevent these mysterious radical Muslims from taking over the country?

Because honestly, that won't happen. Radical believers of ANY religion have no place in dictating that public law in the United States adhere to their religious beliefs. If anyone wants to live in a theocracy that badly, they have many options to choose from. The United States isn't one of those choices.
You have mis-stated some things, as many on the left do: (1) The 1st Amendment prevented the federal government from supporting an official national church (as in the Church of England); that is different from a national religion. (2) Being pro-life is not radical; it is simply protecting helpless, unborn babies from being murdered by abortionists. (3) No Christians have proposed that America be a "theocracy"; radical Muslims have. Radical Muslims have suceeded in having a good deal of control in several city governments. You only have to look at some countries in Europe, such as France, and Belgium to see the result when they gain power. (4) The anti-Christian left thinks Christians should not vote our beliefs, and should stay in our Churches, and not speak out. Sorry that is not going to happen. (5) The Constitution was written for "a religious and moral people, without these it will not survive".
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:07 PM   #3405 (permalink)
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point 2 - what right do you have to tell someone else what they can and cannot do with their body?

point 4 - there's a reason there's supposed to be a separation between Church and State. you do whatever you want based on your religious beliefs provided they do not hurt another human. example: if you vote to ban abortion, you're guaranteeing more women die every year.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:53 PM   #3406 (permalink)
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you do whatever you want based on your religious beliefs provided they do not hurt another human. example: if you vote to ban abortion, you're guaranteeing more women die every year.
There's the rub--many people believe that the fetus IS a person, and that it is being hurt (obviously) in an abortion.

The women that you say will die every year if abortion is outlawed--many, perhaps most, of them have a choice (abstain, birth control) whether to get pregnant. That is where women get to decide what to do with their bodies. Many, perhaps most, of them might choose not to risk a pregnancy by unprotected or reckless sex if they knew there was not an abortion option.

Of course, there are the rapes, the incests and abuses, the mother's life in danger problems to resolve. The majority of anti-abortion folks would allow abortions in difficult situations like these.

But there are still the basic disagreements--is the fetus a person? Does its life have value and is the fetus worth protecting? I can't see much hope that there will be agreement on those basic issues--and the two positions of anti and pro abortion don't really allow for compromise.

If you go back aways into this thread there is a lengthy discussion of the issues surrounding abortion--we couldn't come to any agreement then either.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:54 PM   #3407 (permalink)
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i don't believe a fetus is a person until it's born, but i am not a fan of aborting if it's viable...i.e. can live on its own outside the womb.

however, this isn't the point. the point is the choice needs to be available.

unfortunately, it's one of those hot-button issues like gun control, gay marriage, and the like. people will be vehemently for or against each of those, and it's very difficult to change minds.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:07 PM   #3408 (permalink)
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A couple of problems with the viable idea
1. As medicine gets better, premature babies are surviving at younger and younger ages. Right now, the viability age is perilously close to the maximum age for a fetus to be aborted. Do we have to go in and change the abortion legislation each time a new breakthrough allows a younger fetus to survive?
2. If you want to be legalistic about it--a 6-month old baby can't survive on its own outside the womb--it needs feeding and some minimum care. But it would be sorta silly to say that a mom could kill that baby with no penalty, and that that baby is not a "person".

I think the problem with trying to decide when a fetus is mature enough that mom shouldn't be able to abort it is that there is really no obvious dividing line. There is conception, implantation I suppose, perhaps the detection of a heartbeat, and then there is birth. Everything in between is a continuum that does not really allow for a definite line to be drawn between abortable and not--thus the continuing arguments.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:45 PM   #3409 (permalink)
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Consider the problems some women have getting access to the morning after pill even though it is legal. And even though there is birth control available, the reality is that abstinence is not an answer. People don't always think ahead. The pill, iud, etc. are alternatives but they require planning ahead, being responsible and we know that doesn't describe young people with raging hormones.

It's one thing to have your religious beliefs and to live that kind of life (I'm all for that) but it is another thing to impose those beliefs on others......to make them live what you deem the correct way to live. History has shown the abuses that a religion that has political power is capable of. People who fled England because of religious persecution came to this country for freedom. Freedom to practice their religion without being punished or killed. To live a life they wanted. It is ironic that many of those very people became as intolerant and abusive as the tyranny they ran from.

JMO
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:54 PM   #3410 (permalink)
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(5) The Constitution was written for "a religious and moral people, without these it will not survive".
You don't have to be religious to be moral.

What is needed is a sense of right and wrong. That doesn't require a religion.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:36 AM   #3411 (permalink)
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The question of whether or not a fetus is a person who deserves to be protected by society is not really a religious issue. Whether murder is wrong is not a religious issue. It is an ethical and moral one. Is the fetus is an innocent helpless life who will bear the consequences of a poor decision by its mother if it is not protected by society, or does it exist in a kind of suspension of life waiting to be, that will not suffer when it is snuffed out like a candle flame?

A woman would not be allowed to say that she wants to play tennis and because she has an absolute right to play tennis, if someone gets in the way by refusing to move off the court, she can kill him. That would be considered an absolutely ridiculous excuse.

But that kind of reasoning is rather similar to a woman's claim that she wants to have sex and has an absolute right to indulge, and that if she gets pregnant she has the right to abort the fetus.

IF you assume that the fetus is a person, the argument that the woman has a right to an abortion seems to be as ridiculous as the murder on the tennis court. If you think the baby is just part of the woman's body to treat as she pleases, you would consider abortion to be a legitimate way out of a problem pregnancy.

I'm not preaching the morality of no sex before marriage, and trying to handcuff our young folks for the "crime" of exploring each other, but I am preaching that society has an interest in protecting the defenseless. Denying some people a particular kind of right in order to prevent a murder is justified morally. In this case, IF you believe that a fetus is alive enough and a person enough for an abortion to be considered murder, you would have the moral obligation to try to prevent that murder. You are not imposing your beliefs about sex on others so much as you are trying to keep a baby from being killed.

That would make sense to everyone, I think, IF everyone agreed about the fetus' personhood. But they don't.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:13 PM   #3412 (permalink)
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Wait, where does radical Islam come in? I'm totally missing your point, DR. What point are you trying to make?

We do have freedom of religion, yes. We also have that line in the 1st Amendment that goes something like this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Which basically protects all of us from having a national religion. Radical religions, be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. aren't going to take over. But it seems like any time religion is brought up, especially if it's Christianity, someone has to throw out Islam as some sort of a red herring. Why? Do we need to scare everyone into accepting one set of radicals in order to prevent these mysterious radical Muslims from taking over the country?

Because honestly, that won't happen. Radical believers of ANY religion have no place in dictating that public law in the United States adhere to their religious beliefs. If anyone wants to live in a theocracy that badly, they have many options to choose from. The United States isn't one of those choices.
my point is that Christians are meek lambs compared to radical Islamists. Our constitution protects everyone. Sharia law you ladies?
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:17 PM   #3413 (permalink)
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Quote:
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point 2 - what right do you have to tell someone else what they can and cannot do with their body?

point 4 - there's a reason there's supposed to be a separation between Church and State. you do whatever you want based on your religious beliefs provided they do not hurt another human. example: if you vote to ban abortion, you're guaranteeing more women die every year.
is it really only about being told what you can and can't do with your body? I look around me and see all the different ways people express with their bodies - we have that freedom.

We are all 'free' to choose to do whatever it is we want to do. Whether or not our actions violate a law and the law is enforced is another question.

and where does your point 4 come from? ban abortion and more women die? really?
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:19 PM   #3414 (permalink)
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i don't believe a fetus is a person until it's born, but i am not a fan of aborting if it's viable...i.e. can live on its own outside the womb.

however, this isn't the point. the point is the choice needs to be available.

unfortunately, it's one of those hot-button issues like gun control, gay marriage, and the like. people will be vehemently for or against each of those, and it's very difficult to change minds.
do you have kids? when you first became pregnant, how did that announcement go? hey dear, I have a mass of tissue growing rapidly inside me, but we don't have to worry about naming it or preparing for it until it becomes viable outside the womb.... maybe I'll go in and have it removed along with that mole tomorrow.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:26 PM   #3415 (permalink)
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You don't have to be religious to be moral.

What is needed is a sense of right and wrong. That doesn't require a religion.
just for discussion purposes...

say you plop a group of people not affiliated with any religion down on a deserted island. Given them no religious book or teaching.

where does their senses of right and wrong come from? what if the group were split 50/50 by chance in 'good' people and just simply rotten people. Then the group decided to form laws for their island. The 50% rotten would have their say and establish a law skewed with rotten in it - say killing the unwanted was ok. Killing the unhealthy was ok. Cheating was ok. So on this island, what we might consider wrong is right. Does that make it right? And by what standard do the good people on the island judge the feeling they have about - their consciences - the bad people and the actions they are taking?
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:32 PM   #3416 (permalink)
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[quote=GRAYGHOST;1217001]You have mis-stated some things, as many on the left do: (1) The 1st Amendment prevented the federal government from supporting an official national church (as in the Church of England); that is different from a national religion. (2) Being pro-life is not radical; it is simply protecting helpless, unborn babies from being murdered by abortionists.[quote]

Whoa whoa whoa, first off, I am not part of the left. Nor am I part of the right. I don't really fit in with either side, which is fine by me- a lot of other people are in the same boat. And I went back over what I wrote, Greyghost. Nowhere have I said that being pro-life is radical. In fact, I didn't mention abortion at all. Just because someone is anti-abortion doesn't mean that they are some kind of uber-religious radical, any more than being pro-abortion makes you some kind of leftist anti-Christian freak.

And I don't believe I misspoke. It's pretty clear: Congress shall make no law respecting establishment of religion. The word used is religion, not national church. Part of why this country is here is because we wanted away from England to get away from one religion's control over how people choose to worship.

If you want to open the door to a national religion, which religion do we pick? Christianity? Judaism? Buddhism? Islam? We shouldn't have a national religion, and I have no idea why we'd want one. Unless we want to wind up like England, with an established national religion and church. No thanks. Our right to worship how we choose and to keep that separation of church and state is an important thing, here.

As for radical Muslims, I have yet to see where they are any kind of a real threat for taking over this country. Yes, there's problems in Europe, but those issues are for those countries to handle on their own. It doesn't mean it will happen here in the U.S., especially when our laws forbid it and hey, the 1st amendment will never permit something like sharia law to take effect here. For that matter, our citizens will never permit something like sharia law to take effect here. We don't want religious law- of any religion- to be the law of the land.

As for Christians voting on their beliefs, truthfully we all do that. I'm not telling anyone to not vote on their beliefs. It's when those beliefs cross the line into telling other people how to live their lives, that's when there's a problem. And it's when those beliefs take away the ability to see the point of view from the other side, and take away the ability to compromise, that there's a real problem. But then, that problem belongs to the majority of people these days, not just some Christians.

Of course, if I did belong to a political party, it would probably be the mind your own business party. Maybe we should get that rolling.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:34 PM   #3417 (permalink)
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do you have kids? when you first became pregnant, how did that announcement go? hey dear, I have a mass of tissue growing rapidly inside me, but we don't have to worry about naming it or preparing for it until it becomes viable outside the womb.... maybe I'll go in and have it removed along with that mole tomorrow.
It's not decided like that. Many time young girls who find themselves pregnant don't make that decision lightly. It is a weighing of choices. And in the end one choice is made... a very personal, private choice that is hers alone. Not a govt. choice, not a religious choice and certainly not a choice dictated by others who aren't the ones pregnant. No one advocates "whim abortions". What is advocated is choice.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:44 PM   #3418 (permalink)
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just for discussion purposes...

say you plop a group of people not affiliated with any religion down on a deserted island. Given them no religious book or teaching.

where does their senses of right and wrong come from? what if the group were split 50/50 by chance in 'good' people and just simply rotten people. Then the group decided to form laws for their island. The 50% rotten would have their say and establish a law skewed with rotten in it - say killing the unwanted was ok. Killing the unhealthy was ok. Cheating was ok. So on this island, what we might consider wrong is right. Does that make it right? And by what standard do the good people on the island judge the feeling they have about - their consciences - the bad people and the actions they are taking?
Not going into Survivor Island. People decide on rules based on their make-up. This is where sympathy, empathy and what we consider good behavior comes to play. Yes, society has its damaged people. Those are why we have laws to protect us. In the beginning (how about that little phrase) there were no laws or courts or police. Religion became the law, court, police and in many cases executioner. Unfortunately laws can become skewed with ill intent, hatred and unfairness.

Again, it doesn't take a religious person to be fair, moral, just. History has demonstrated that some of the most religious people were the opposite of that.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:15 PM   #3419 (permalink)
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No one advocates "whim abortions". What is advocated is choice.
I knew a girl who allowed herself to become pregnant three time, hoping each time that her boyfriend would marry her. When he refused--abortion time.

Whim abortions are more common than you think. And if we keep pushing that an abortion is OK, and that the pregnant women is just dealing with a lump of tissue, women will be having abortions not just based on a whim, but because they see nothing morally wrong with one. No big deal.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:05 PM   #3420 (permalink)
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It's not decided like that. Many time young girls who find themselves pregnant don't make that decision lightly. It is a weighing of choices. And in the end one choice is made... a very personal, private choice that is hers alone. Not a govt. choice, not a religious choice and certainly not a choice dictated by others who aren't the ones pregnant. No one advocates "whim abortions". What is advocated is choice.
I think what it boils down to is 'we' (society) want our sex out of wedlock, and we want it now, without any religious shackles (e.g., responsibility). In a marriage, it is not a woman's choice, alone. It is the couples' decision together. So, the argument is about freedom to have sex and be able to undo the consequences of that.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:09 PM   #3421 (permalink)
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You will always have the stupid, clueless, irresponsible and ignorant. No solution is perfect. IMO it would have been better to not have her as a mother of 3. Again, it comes down to choice.

As to the woman you were referring to, Hopefully she will find herself unable to become pregnant after this.

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Old 01-05-2013, 03:35 PM   #3422 (permalink)
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I think what it boils down to is 'we' (society) want our sex out of wedlock, and we want it now, without any religious shackles (e.g., responsibility). In a marriage, it is not a woman's choice, alone. It is the couples' decision together. So, the argument is about freedom to have sex and be able to undo the consequences of that.
You know, this is absolutely true and a very good point. People who choose to have sex without taking steps to avoid a pregnancy? Irresponsible. And an abortion for that sort of thing is also irresponsible. Abortion should, ideally, be a safeguard for women who are raped, the victims of incest, or who will die if they continue to carry the baby. Just because I believe we should have the right to choose doesn't mean that abortion should be treated as this casual backup to irresponsible behavior, not the way some people treat it.

I would argue that access to abortion is part of the argument, not just irresponsible sex, because of the rape and risk of health to the mother that I mentioned above. That has to be part of the discussion- banning abortions completely will kill some women who can't carry a baby to term without both themselves and the baby dying.

And access to birth control. It needs to be there. It needs to be better. Don't want more abortions? Make sure women can have access to the means to prevent pregnancies before they happen. Yet in some areas, pharmacies refuse to give women birth control because it goes against their beliefs.

Hey, people are going to bump uglies every chance they get. At least let's make sure we all have access to birth control and condoms to keep unwanted pregnancies from happening.

About the married couples- yes, having a child should be a mutual decision. They're both going to be raising the baby together. I've known some people who have had a baby because one partner talked the other one into it. I can't see that ending well, if someone's talked into it. I have no idea why that happens. It really makes no sense. All or nothing, because there is another person involved who will know if one of his/her parents didn't really want that baby.

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Old 01-05-2013, 04:59 PM   #3423 (permalink)
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is it really only about being told what you can and can't do with your body? I look around me and see all the different ways people express with their bodies - we have that freedom.

We are all 'free' to choose to do whatever it is we want to do. Whether or not our actions violate a law and the law is enforced is another question.

and where does your point 4 come from? ban abortion and more women die? really?
i honestly believe that's a large part of it.

and women have always and will always abort, but if you ban it they will resort to back alley abortions (again) and will die from those poorly-performed, unsanitary abortions. again. this has happened before.

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do you have kids? when you first became pregnant, how did that announcement go? hey dear, I have a mass of tissue growing rapidly inside me, but we don't have to worry about naming it or preparing for it until it becomes viable outside the womb.... maybe I'll go in and have it removed along with that mole tomorrow.
you're asking this question of someone who absolutely wants nothing to do with pregnancy and giving birth. 1 - i take active measures against pregnancy, and 2 - i would have a pregnancy terminated.

i can't get sterilized because in my state, most places will not perform the procedure unless a woman is a mother of two *and* over 35. this is unfair. i have never wanted children, will never want children, and should not be forced to worry about the risk of having children.

birth control methods are not 100% guaranteed to work. essentially, you're telling me my only option should be abstaining...and this isn't fair to my partner, whom i love very much.

furthermore, as the product of an unwanted pregnancy and subsequent adoption, i have to tell you...even the most well-adjusted kids are going to question things. i spent the majority of my adult life debating whether to send in paperwork to get medical records - you know, to find out what sort of hereditary diseases i might have in my background? i honestly don't know if it's better that i was put up for adoption. i know my birth mother was pressured into it, and i wonder how much that screwed up *her* life at the time. forcing women to have unwanted children isn't fair to those women, nor is it fair to the children.

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Old 01-05-2013, 06:01 PM   #3424 (permalink)
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.

And access to birth control. It needs to be there. It needs to be better. Don't want more abortions? Make sure women can have access to the means to prevent pregnancies before they happen. Yet in some areas, pharmacies refuse to give women birth control because it goes against their beliefs.
There is plenty of access to birth control; it just should not be paid for by taxpayers. Pharmacists should should have the right not to dispense birth control pills (like the 'morning after' pill which kills the fertalized egg) if it against his/her beliefs. These are usually independent pharmacies, so what gives some big government flunkie the right to tell them what to do?
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:17 PM   #3425 (permalink)
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There is plenty of access to birth control; it just should not be paid for by taxpayers. Pharmacists should should have the right not to dispense birth control pills (like the 'morning after' pill which kills the fertalized egg) if it against his/her beliefs. These are usually independent pharmacies, so what gives some big government flunkie the right to tell them what to do?
Birth control is not available just by asking for it. In some states the person must have written permission from her parent/s in order to obtain it. I would rather pay for someone's birth control who is on welfare than wind up supporting another addition to the welfare roles. Pharmacists who disagree with dispensing a legal medication should not allow their personal/religious beliefs to interfere with another person's right to have access to that medication. What gives some big government flunkie the right? Our legal system.....you know, the one that makes sure people have access to medications. The one that isn't supposed to bow to pressure from religious organizations just so those organizations can foist their doctrines on people. If you don't want to avail yourself to birth control then don't. But don't take that choice from everyone else.
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