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Old 12-16-2012, 12:56 AM   #3251 (permalink)
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Okay, this is a question from a Canadian....don't shoot me...

Is the whole thing about carrying a gun more about your rights, or because you really need protection?

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Old 12-16-2012, 01:40 AM   #3252 (permalink)
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This is a terribly morbid and sobering situation.

That said, there are many, many issues at stake here-- not just gun control.

We need to talk first and foremost about the collapsing mental health services we have in some parts of this country, and how the greater tendency is to institutionalize in prisons those with mental health issues, and when deemed "stable," release them. There is also an even greater tendency to completely ignore those issues, especially in the poorer sections of our society. As we speak, mental health beds are closing in budget-tight states.

We need to address the effects that the 24-7 news culture actually has on society. It further robs children of their innocence. I was speaking with people today who have children in the affected age bracket. They are unsure how to approach this topic with their children. Many parents do not want to speak of this to their children for some time, but have no choice but to confront the issue in fear that their children will hear it from others at school.

Also, there are things that are not your business nor mine to know. And contrary to the saying, there ARE such things as stupid questions. Asking the Chief Medical Examiner who has had to undertake such a horrific task as part of his job "what were the children wearing?" IS a stupid question; what do you THINK these 1st grade kids were wearing?!?! He answered it well: "Typical cute kid clothes." Stop covering in this manner.

The way in which the media covers these issues is horrific, and most often, leads to similar events. The type of attention we pay to these killers, making them anti-heros, just stokes other small fires.

As English journalist Charlie Brooker states, "If you don’t want to propagate more mass murders, don’t start the story with sirens blaring. Don’t have photographs of the killer. Don’t make this 24-7 coverage. Do everything you can to not make the body-count the lead story, not to make the killer some kind of anti-hero. DO localize the story to the affected community and make it as boring as possible in every other market. Because every time we have intense saturation coverage of a mass murder, we expect to see one or two more within a week.”

And finally... gun control. I am sorry, but I believe that there are a few areas in gun policy where we can improve as a country without conceding this liberty. I feel that guns should be registered. If not all guns, all semi-automatic guns. This serves to protect gun owners and the non-gun owning public from theft and illegal use. I also feel that you should have to pass a safety course and licensing exam to own a gun, and that you should need to re-take this exam after a certain period... maybe 5 years. I believe that there should be clip-size limits for certain weapons, and that if you buy a large amount (150 rounds?) of high-powered ammo at one time, you should have to sign your name as you must do when purchasing 2 boxes of Sudafed at the pharmacy. I also believe that we must get tighter on the person-to-person sales of weaponry. For instance, in Louisiana an individual can sell any gun out the back of a car to any other individual. No background check required. Same goes at gun shows.

All in all, there are many pieces to this problem. We need to treat guns at least like we treat cars. We need to stop fueling the vicious and destructive "Reality TV - turned- News" culture that we live in. We need to preserve the innocence of our children, because once you squander that, how do we expect hopefulness in society to survive? And once you squander hope for the world and for society, how do you help repair those shattered minds?
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:46 AM   #3253 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyB View Post
Okay, this is a question from a Canadian....don't shoot me...

Is the whole thing about carrying a gun more about your rights, or because you really need protection?

If you are me, and you live where I live, yes, it is for protection. Please see exhibit A:

Violence-Related Firearm Deaths per 100,000

So far in 2012 New Orleans has had 174 murders, nearly all of them due to gunshot wounds. These numbers do not include any attempted murders.

Nola.com Murder Map

We also have an avid hunting populous here, which is quite respectful and good with their firearms.

Keep in mind, speaking of these numbers and mental health-- usually 50% of deaths by firearms are suicides.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:35 AM   #3254 (permalink)
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After any horrific event it's normal and natural to discuss and/or debate possible contributing factors and potential preventative measures.

In cases like this people may want to talk about mental illness or gun control. People raising what they feel are legitimate questions and people who are looking for possible solutions should not be told to STFU.

On the other hand there are people/organizations/polititions with a pre-existing agenda who jump on events like these to further that agenda. It is both disgusting and predictable. Those people are not asking questions or attempting to find answers. Quite to the contrary they already have a political agenda and are simply siezing an oppertunity to try and further it. Those are the people who really need to back off and show some respect, but it's a sure-thing guarantee they won't.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:38 AM   #3255 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmoppett View Post
this is a terribly morbid and sobering situation.

That said, there are many, many issues at stake here-- not just gun control.

We need to talk first and foremost about the collapsing mental health services we have in some parts of this country, and how the greater tendency is to institutionalize in prisons those with mental health issues, and when deemed "stable," release them. There is also an even greater tendency to completely ignore those issues, especially in the poorer sections of our society. As we speak, mental health beds are closing in budget-tight states.

We need to address the effects that the 24-7 news culture actually has on society. It further robs children of their innocence. I was speaking with people today who have children in the affected age bracket. They are unsure how to approach this topic with their children. Many parents do not want to speak of this to their children for some time, but have no choice but to confront the issue in fear that their children will hear it from others at school.

Also, there are things that are not your business nor mine to know. And contrary to the saying, there are such things as stupid questions. Asking the chief medical examiner who has had to undertake such a horrific task as part of his job "what were the children wearing?" is a stupid question; what do you think these 1st grade kids were wearing?!?! He answered it well: "typical cute kid clothes." stop covering in this manner.

The way in which the media covers these issues is horrific, and most often, leads to similar events. The type of attention we pay to these killers, making them anti-heros, just stokes other small fires.

As english journalist charlie brooker states, "if you don’t want to propagate more mass murders, don’t start the story with sirens blaring. Don’t have photographs of the killer. Don’t make this 24-7 coverage. Do everything you can to not make the body-count the lead story, not to make the killer some kind of anti-hero. Do localize the story to the affected community and make it as boring as possible in every other market. Because every time we have intense saturation coverage of a mass murder, we expect to see one or two more within a week.”

and finally... Gun control. I am sorry, but i believe that there are a few areas in gun policy where we can improve as a country without conceding this liberty. I feel that guns should be registered. If not all guns, all semi-automatic guns. This serves to protect gun owners and the non-gun owning public from theft and illegal use. I also feel that you should have to pass a safety course and licensing exam to own a gun, and that you should need to re-take this exam after a certain period... Maybe 5 years. I believe that there should be clip-size limits for certain weapons, and that if you buy a large amount (150 rounds?) of high-powered ammo at one time, you should have to sign your name as you must do when purchasing 2 boxes of sudafed at the pharmacy. I also believe that we must get tighter on the person-to-person sales of weaponry. For instance, in louisiana an individual can sell any gun out the back of a car to any other individual. No background check required. Same goes at gun shows.

All in all, there are many pieces to this problem. We need to treat guns at least like we treat cars. We need to stop fueling the vicious and destructive "reality tv - turned- news" culture that we live in. We need to preserve the innocence of our children, because once you squander that, how do we expect hopefulness in society to survive? And once you squander hope for the world and for society, how do you help repair those shattered minds?

this!
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:39 AM   #3256 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMoppett View Post
If you are me, and you live where I live, yes, it is for protection. Please see exhibit A:

Violence-Related Firearm Deaths per 100,000

So far in 2012 New Orleans has had 174 murders, nearly all of them due to gunshot wounds. These numbers do not include any attempted murders.

Nola.com Murder Map

We also have an avid hunting populous here, which is quite respectful and good with their firearms.

Keep in mind, speaking of these numbers and mental health-- usually 50% of deaths by firearms are suicides.
And also remember that in extraordinarily high violence / crime areas, like NOLA or BR, if it's not a shooting every morning in the paper, it's a stabbing. Sometimes both.
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:20 AM   #3257 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyB View Post
Okay, this is a question from a Canadian....don't shoot me...

Is the whole thing about carrying a gun more about your rights, or because you really need protection?

both.

To me, the intent of the 2nd amendment can be seen in the movie Patriot. And, the sentiment: when people fear the government, you have tyranny; when the government fears the people, you have liberty. And now, we live in an evil world plain and simple. You should have the choice to defend yourself if you so choose.

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Old 12-16-2012, 09:23 AM   #3258 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMoppett View Post
This is a terribly morbid and sobering situation.

That said, there are many, many issues at stake here-- not just gun control.

We need to talk first and foremost about the collapsing mental health services we have in some parts of this country, and how the greater tendency is to institutionalize in prisons those with mental health issues, and when deemed "stable," release them. There is also an even greater tendency to completely ignore those issues, especially in the poorer sections of our society. As we speak, mental health beds are closing in budget-tight states.

We need to address the effects that the 24-7 news culture actually has on society. It further robs children of their innocence. I was speaking with people today who have children in the affected age bracket. They are unsure how to approach this topic with their children. Many parents do not want to speak of this to their children for some time, but have no choice but to confront the issue in fear that their children will hear it from others at school.

Also, there are things that are not your business nor mine to know. And contrary to the saying, there ARE such things as stupid questions. Asking the Chief Medical Examiner who has had to undertake such a horrific task as part of his job "what were the children wearing?" IS a stupid question; what do you THINK these 1st grade kids were wearing?!?! He answered it well: "Typical cute kid clothes." Stop covering in this manner.

The way in which the media covers these issues is horrific, and most often, leads to similar events. The type of attention we pay to these killers, making them anti-heros, just stokes other small fires.

As English journalist Charlie Brooker states, "If you don’t want to propagate more mass murders, don’t start the story with sirens blaring. Don’t have photographs of the killer. Don’t make this 24-7 coverage. Do everything you can to not make the body-count the lead story, not to make the killer some kind of anti-hero. DO localize the story to the affected community and make it as boring as possible in every other market. Because every time we have intense saturation coverage of a mass murder, we expect to see one or two more within a week.”

And finally... gun control. I am sorry, but I believe that there are a few areas in gun policy where we can improve as a country without conceding this liberty. I feel that guns should be registered. If not all guns, all semi-automatic guns. This serves to protect gun owners and the non-gun owning public from theft and illegal use. I also feel that you should have to pass a safety course and licensing exam to own a gun, and that you should need to re-take this exam after a certain period... maybe 5 years. I believe that there should be clip-size limits for certain weapons, and that if you buy a large amount (150 rounds?) of high-powered ammo at one time, you should have to sign your name as you must do when purchasing 2 boxes of Sudafed at the pharmacy. I also believe that we must get tighter on the person-to-person sales of weaponry. For instance, in Louisiana an individual can sell any gun out the back of a car to any other individual. No background check required. Same goes at gun shows.

All in all, there are many pieces to this problem. We need to treat guns at least like we treat cars. We need to stop fueling the vicious and destructive "Reality TV - turned- News" culture that we live in. We need to preserve the innocence of our children, because once you squander that, how do we expect hopefulness in society to survive? And once you squander hope for the world and for society, how do you help repair those shattered minds?
that's ok - I love revolvers

and I kind of agreed with a lot of your post.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:04 PM   #3259 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyB View Post
Okay, this is a question from a Canadian....don't shoot me...

Is the whole thing about carrying a gun more about your rights, or because you really need protection?

No worries! It's more for protection here. I have friends who live in more remote places where police response is a half hour or more away, and that could also be me if a relocation goes through (please yes, keeping fingers crossed). It's not because I don't want to rely on the cops, it's just simple logistics. If a car is 30 minutes away, there's no possible way for help to arrive in time. And while dogs are great, we've had multiple threads on this forum about how easy it is to stop a dog. Griff can drive off some people, but the people who aren't deterred by a barking Doberman are the ones you really need to worry about.

I'm glad that I have the right to own a firearm to protect myself. Do we need to, as a country, look at gun regulations? Maybe. I'm still reading arguments about that and trying to figure out what's good without compromising the right to bear arms. In some places, that right is necessary in order to protect yourself and we can't lose that. But this whole issue is shades of grey, and very emotionally charged right now. So that's all I'll comment on gun control issues for the moment.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:12 PM   #3260 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyB View Post
Okay, this is a question from a Canadian....don't shoot me...

Is the whole thing about carrying a gun more about your rights, or because you really need protection?

It's also a deterrent to criminals. You are less likely to F with somebody when there is a chance that they are armed. In Canada, all of the criminals know you are not armed because you can't be, unless you are a criminal. Therefore you are fair game.

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Old 12-16-2012, 03:53 PM   #3261 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMoppett View Post
This is a terribly morbid and sobering situation.

That said, there are many, many issues at stake here-- not just gun control.

We need to talk first and foremost about the collapsing mental health services we have in some parts of this country, and how the greater tendency is to institutionalize in prisons those with mental health issues, and when deemed "stable," release them. There is also an even greater tendency to completely ignore those issues, especially in the poorer sections of our society. As we speak, mental health beds are closing in budget-tight states.

....................snip.......................... ..

You appear to have a misconception about mental health services and prisons. People (criminals) get put into Jail/Prison for committing crimes, not for being mental patients. When their time is served they are released. I'm not sure what you think Prisons are doing to 'stabilize' people with mental problems. By their very nature Jails/Prisons are extremely expensive, yet so severely underfunded that basic staffing and security needs are often barely enough. Criminals tend to be highly manipulative too, so the limited mental health resources within a Prison can easily be overwhelmed just dealing with the manipulators.

I don't know how old you are, but for much of our history there were multiple 'Insane Asylums' in almost every State. Those institutions held tens of thousands of people. That isn't the case anymore. The same personalities who would have been committed back then are now among us in society. Yes, many are committing crimes and ending up in Jail. That is only a temporary reprieve for society at large. There is a down side to involuntary commitment on a large scale and plenty of potential for abuse within that sort of system.

Should we bring back the state run asylums and start yanking kids who we deem mentally unstable away from their homes and parents? It is certainly worth discussing whether the potential threat to personal liberty is overshadowed by the greater public good. Can't say I'm too eager to see little Johnny taken away from his mommy just because the teacher saw him draw a tank battle. Can't say I'm too eager to see a Judge decide that so-and-so is a potential threat to society and locked up either. That so-and-so could be you or I without the proper safeguards in place and fully functional. On the other hand it might actually help, unlike gun control which is nothing more than a useless feel-good political measure.
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:20 PM   #3262 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MsMoppett View Post
....................snip.................
And finally... gun control. I am sorry, but I believe that there are a few areas in gun policy where we can improve as a country without conceding this liberty. I feel that guns should be registered. If not all guns, all semi-automatic guns. This serves to protect gun owners and the non-gun owning public from theft and illegal use. I also feel that you should have to pass a safety course and licensing exam to own a gun, and that you should need to re-take this exam after a certain period... maybe 5 years. I believe that there should be clip-size limits for certain weapons, and that if you buy a large amount (150 rounds?) of high-powered ammo at one time, you should have to sign your name as you must do when purchasing 2 boxes of Sudafed at the pharmacy. I also believe that we must get tighter on the person-to-person sales of weaponry. For instance, in Louisiana an individual can sell any gun out the back of a car to any other individual. No background check required. Same goes at gun shows.

All in all, there are many pieces to this problem. We need to treat guns at least like we treat cars. ............................snip...............

There is a lot to address here. What exactly do you think would be accomplished by registering guns? Ummm... we know who was in possession of the gun, what difference would it make if the gun was in a registry somewhere???

150 rounds is a “large amount”???? My kids and I can shoot that in an hour. That's less than 50 rounds for each of us.

Bearing arms is a Right, not a privilege. I'll support a safety course and licensing exam for owning a gun when we have a critical thinking test and history exam before allowing people to speak, publish, or read anything.

Same with individual firearm sales, first make a constitutionally acceptable plan to regulate who can buy a book, give a speech, read an online article or publish a newsletter then take that plan and retrofit it to gun sales.

The car/gun analogy is bogus. Owning a gun is a Right. Owning a car is not. Putting Rights aside; cars are much, much, much more dangerous than guns. Statistics are difficult to pin down because of gang violence involving 'children' and so forth, but even taking that into consideration our kids are roughly 20 (twenty!) times more likely to die from a car than a gun.

The grim reality is that a child is far, far, far more likely to die riding home from the ball game or soccer practice than from a gun.

Fire and drowning exceed guns for child related deaths too. By quite a large margin.

The villainization of semi-auto firearms and high capacity magazines is a successful effort of the gun-control organizations. Of course larger magazine capacity means you can shoot more without reloading, but limiting magazine capacity isn't going to deter bad guys. In the old days both bad guys and good guys were known to carry multiple revolvers, as well as spare cylinders for speed loads. We're talking all the way back to muzzle loading and blackpoweder days.

I haven't run a revolver for eons. It's been at least 5 years since I've done anything resembling practice, and more than 10 years since I qualified with one. Just to make a point I dragged out a six shot revolver and videoed a couple reloads. NO PRACTICE was done before the video was taken. I'm just an average Joe nobody. Someone who is skilled or someone who practices can run a revolver more than well enough to make up for a lack of “high capacity” magazines. Would I want to be handicapped with a six shot revolver when a 14 shot semi-auto was available? Of course not, but if all I had was a revolver it will get the job done.

Banning or restricting magazine capacity is just another effort by people with a political agenda. It would be bad for the good guys- the law abiding folks, but have zero effect on crime. Semi-auto and magazine capacity restrictions are NOT a legitimate public safety issues.


Reload without practice
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:54 PM   #3263 (permalink)
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Obama administration, Congress quietly let school security funds lapse | WashingtonGuardian

School Security Funding cut.

Oregon mall shooter confronted by armed citizen then killed himself.

Connecticut shooter killed himself when armed first responders arrived.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:19 AM   #3264 (permalink)
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I am just so sorry that some of you have to fear for your safety that much.....that is really sad.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:33 AM   #3265 (permalink)
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I am just so sorry that some of you have to fear for your safety that much.....that is really sad.
Yes it is sad.

US population 311 million plus. Canada population 33 million plus.

More people equals more crime what would Canada be like with 311 million plus in population.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:37 AM   #3266 (permalink)
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I think it is more than population, demographics more so.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:35 AM   #3267 (permalink)
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When you cut all the fat away you're left with a few simple facts: You have a female gun owner and mother of a developmentally disabled son. This same mother, beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt did not secure her firearms in an appropriate manner to prevent her developmentally disabled son from gaining access. Had that ONE simple step been taken there is an astoundingly high chance that this shooting would have never taken place.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:55 AM   #3268 (permalink)
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I'm not going to speculate on the specifics of the most recent shooting in regards to mental health. But in regards to Jared Loughner and James Holmes the writing was on the wall. They were both bat **** crazy, they were both students of schools that were very concerned for the well being of staff and students alike at their prospective universities.

(In my state) Had those schools taken the evidence they had and notified the police they would have been taken in to custody and placed on a 72 hour emergency hold at their local mental health care facilities and given evaluations. (I think its more then fair to say that both Loughner and Holmes would have failed their evaluations miserably.) At the end of the 72 hours they would have seen a judge, been court ordered treatment, and automatically been disbarred from possessing a firearm.

Schools, the police, and doctors alike are hesitant to put somebody on an Emergency hold for fear of being sued. And that is a problem, of course there needs to be balance. But 72 hours of somebody's life doesn't warrant a multi million dollar lawsuit. With today's advances in medication and behavioral science I see very little need to "lock somebody up and throw away the key". There is a need to ensure people have access to the help the need along with followup care to ensure a mentally ill person stays a steady course of recovery. That includes those mentally ill people that don't want help.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:42 AM   #3269 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by adhahn View Post
There is a lot to address here. What exactly do you think would be accomplished by registering guns? Ummm... we know who was in possession of the gun, what difference would it make if the gun was in a registry somewhere???

150 rounds is a “large amount”???? My kids and I can shoot that in an hour. That's less than 50 rounds for each of us.

Bearing arms is a Right, not a privilege. I'll support a safety course and licensing exam for owning a gun when we have a critical thinking test and history exam before allowing people to speak, publish, or read anything.
Same with individual firearm sales, first make a constitutionally acceptable plan to regulate who can buy a book, give a speech, read an online article or publish a newsletter then take that plan and retrofit it to gun sales.

The car/gun analogy is bogus. Owning a gun is a Right. Owning a car is not. Putting Rights aside; cars are much, much, much more dangerous than guns. Statistics are difficult to pin down because of gang violence involving 'children' and so forth, but even taking that into consideration our kids are roughly 20 (twenty!) times more likely to die from a car than a gun.

The grim reality is that a child is far, far, far more likely to die riding home from the ball game or soccer practice than from a gun.

Fire and drowning exceed guns for child related deaths too. By quite a large margin.

The villainization of semi-auto firearms and high capacity magazines is a successful effort of the gun-control organizations. Of course larger magazine capacity means you can shoot more without reloading, but limiting magazine capacity isn't going to deter bad guys. In the old days both bad guys and good guys were known to carry multiple revolvers, as well as spare cylinders for speed loads. We're talking all the way back to muzzle loading and blackpoweder days.

I haven't run a revolver for eons. It's been at least 5 years since I've done anything resembling practice, and more than 10 years since I qualified with one. Just to make a point I dragged out a six shot revolver and videoed a couple reloads. NO PRACTICE was done before the video was taken. I'm just an average Joe nobody. Someone who is skilled or someone who practices can run a revolver more than well enough to make up for a lack of “high capacity” magazines. Would I want to be handicapped with a six shot revolver when a 14 shot semi-auto was available? Of course not, but if all I had was a revolver it will get the job done.

Banning or restricting magazine capacity is just another effort by people with a political agenda. It would be bad for the good guys- the law abiding folks, but have zero effect on crime. Semi-auto and magazine capacity restrictions are NOT a legitimate public safety issues.

Why people are thanking this post is blowing my mind. Ignore list just grew.
There is only one reason and ONE reason only for a gun that shoots multiple rounds per second and it's not for deer hunting.

And don't give me that it's protection from the government crap- all they have to do is point a microwave gun @ you and your AR-15 & you're toast.

DIAF already.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:41 AM   #3270 (permalink)
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Why people are thanking this post is blowing my mind. Ignore list just grew.

DIAF already.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:52 AM   #3271 (permalink)
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Q734 I guess a semi-automatic shotgun would fall into that catagory also which is used for hunting, trap or skeet shooting?
Banning any new semi auto firearms or banning hi capacity mags is not going to work. There are already millions of each already out there. Just revolvers? They have speed loaders for those. So what would happen?Besides carring 3,4 or 5 extra revolvers. So the next step would be for a law that would make you turn in all your semi auto and mags. Then after that. Turn in your revolvers.
Allowing only 10 round mags? You can always carry extra 20 or 30 mags. With any practice you can reload within 1 1/2 sec. or less. Any type of Gun Laws (or any law) that are passed criminals or the mentally ill do not care about laws. There are so many gun laws on the books now. The problem also is criminal control. I say if you use a gun in a crime, you get 20 yrs in prison. But you do the whole 20 yrs. But then criminals would use a knife.
All of these shootings started out with the first thing these shooters all had in common, a Mental Illness and most of them had Hi IQ's! Also most if not all were giving off warning signs. Yes they use guns. But if they could not get their hand on a gun it would be a knife, sword or a make a home made bombs like at Columbine. Yes not only Harris and Klebold had guns. They had set multiple bombs they had made to go off. Not counting the ones they made and were throwing at victims.
One other thing in common most of these shooters do? They kill them selfves once they hear sirens and think they are going to be confronted. So I think put armed teachers or off duty police in schools. First I think more funding for Mental Health!
I guess they have to go after the object used and try and control it. Because they can't control the mentally ill. This evil person in this shooting even distroyed his computers at home.

Here is a good article

December 16, 2012 by Dan Mitchell


I wrote earlier this month about an honest liberal who acknowledged the problems created by government dependency. Well, it happened again.

First, some background.

Like every other decent person, I was horrified and nauseated by the school shootings in Newton, Connecticut.

Part of me wishes the guy hadn’t killed himself so that he could be slowly fed into a meat grinder.

And my friends on the left will be happy to know that part of me, when I first learned about the murders, thought the world might be a better place if guns had never been invented.

Sort of like my gut reaction about cigarettes when I find out that somebody I know is dying of a smoking-related illness or how I feel about gambling when I read about a family being ruined because some jerk thought it would be a good idea to use the mortgage money at a casino.



But there’s a reason why it’s generally not a good idea to make impulsive decisions based on immediate reactions. In the case of gun control, it can lead to policies that don’t work. Or perhaps even make a bad situation worse.

I’ve certainly made these points when writing and pontificating about gun control. But I’m a libertarian, so that’s hardly a surprise. We’re people who instinctively are skeptical of giving government power over individuals.

But when someone on the left reaches the same conclusion, that’s perhaps more significant. Especially when you get the feeling that they would like ban private gun ownership in their version of a perfect world.

That’s why I heartily recommend Jeffrey Goldberg’s article in The Atlantic.

Here are some of the most profound passages in the article, beginning with a common-sense observation that there’s no way for the government to end private gun ownership.

According to a 2011 Gallup poll, 47 percent of American adults keep at least one gun at home or on their property, and many of these gun owners are absolutists opposed to any government regulation of firearms. According to the same poll, only 26 percent of Americans support a ban on handguns. …There are ways, of course, to make it at least marginally more difficult for the criminally minded, for the dangerously mentally ill, and for the suicidal to buy guns and ammunition. …But these gun-control efforts, while noble, would only have a modest impact on the rate of gun violence in America. Why? Because it’s too late. There are an estimated 280 million to 300 million guns in private hands in America—many legally owned, many not. Each year, more than 4 million new guns enter the market. …America’s level of gun ownership means that even if the Supreme Court—which ruled in 2008 that the Second Amendment gives citizens the individual right to own firearms, as gun advocates have long insisted—suddenly reversed itself and ruled that the individual ownership of handguns was illegal, there would be no practical way for a democratic country to locate and seize those guns.

Which is why prohibition was a flop. Which is why the current War on Drugs is so misguided. And so on and so on.

The author then wonders whether the best way of protecting public safety is to have more gun ownership.

Which raises a question: When even anti-gun activists believe that the debate over private gun ownership is closed; when it is too late to reduce the number of guns in private hands—and since only the naive think that legislation will prevent more than a modest number of the criminally minded, and the mentally deranged, from acquiring a gun in a country absolutely inundated with weapons—could it be that an effective way to combat guns is with more guns? Today, more than 8 million vetted and (depending on the state) trained law-abiding citizens possess state-issued “concealed carry” handgun permits, which allow them to carry a concealed handgun or other weapon in public. Anti-gun activists believe the expansion of concealed-carry permits represents a serious threat to public order. But what if, in fact, the reverse is true? Mightn’t allowing more law-abiding private citizens to carry concealed weapons—when combined with other forms of stringent gun regulation—actually reduce gun violence?

He cites examples where armed citizens stopped mass killings.

In 1997, a disturbed high-school student named Luke Woodham stabbed his mother and then shot and killed two people at Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He then began driving toward a nearby junior high to continue his shooting spree, but the assistant principal of the high school, Joel Myrick, aimed a pistol he kept in his truck at Woodham, causing him to veer off the road. Myrick then put his pistol to Woodham’s neck and disarmed him. On January 16, 2002, a disgruntled former student at the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, Virginia, had killed three people, including the school’s dean, when two students, both off-duty law-enforcement officers, retrieved their weapons and pointed them at the shooter, who ended his killing spree and surrendered. In December 2007, a man armed with a semiautomatic rifle and two pistols entered the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and killed two teenage girls before a church member, Jeanne Assam—a former Minneapolis police officer and a volunteer church security guard—shot and wounded the gunman, who then killed himself.

The author also punctures the left’s mythology about concealed carry laws.

In 2003, John Gilchrist, the legislative counsel for the Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police, testified, “If 200,000 to 300,000 citizens begin carrying a concealed weapon, common sense tells us that accidents will become a daily event.” When I called Gilchrist recently, he told me that events since the state’s concealed-carry law took effect have proved his point. …Gilchrist’s argument would be convincing but for one thing: the firearm crime rate in Ohio remained steady after the concealed-carry law passed in 2004.

Goldberg elaborates.

Today, the number of concealed-carry permits is the highest it’s ever been, at 8 million, and the homicide rate is the lowest it’s been in four decades—less than half what it was 20 years ago. (The number of people allowed to carry concealed weapons is actually considerably higher than 8 million, because residents of Vermont, Wyoming, Arizona, Alaska, and parts of Montana do not need government permission to carry their personal firearms. These states have what Second Amendment absolutists refer to as “constitutional carry,” meaning, in essence, that the Second Amendment is their permit.) Many gun-rights advocates see a link between an increasingly armed public and a decreasing crime rate. “I think effective law enforcement has had the biggest impact on crime rates, but I think concealed carry has something to do with it. We’ve seen an explosion in the number of people licensed to carry,” Lott told me. “You can deter criminality through longer sentencing, and you deter criminality by making it riskier for people to commit crimes. And one way to make it riskier is to create the impression among the criminal population that the law-abiding citizen they want to target may have a gun.” Crime statistics in Britain, where guns are much scarcer, bear this out. Gary Kleck, a criminologist at Florida State University, wrote in his 1991 book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, that only 13 percent of burglaries in America occur when the occupant is home. In Britain, so-called hot burglaries account for about 45 percent of all break-ins. Kleck and others attribute America’s low rate of occupied-home burglaries to fear among criminals that homeowners might be armed. (A survey of almost 2,000 convicted U.S. felons, conducted by the criminologists Peter Rossi and James D. Wright in the late ’80s, concluded that burglars are more afraid of armed homeowners than they are of arrest by the police.)

That last bit of info is very powerful. The bad guys are more afraid of armed homeowners than the police. Surely, as I explained here, that tells us that gun ownership lowers crime.

Here’s another no-sh*t-Sherlock observation from the article.

It is also illogical for campuses to advertise themselves as “gun-free.” Someone bent on murder is not usually dissuaded by posted anti-gun regulations. Quite the opposite—publicly describing your property as gun-free is analogous to posting a notice on your front door saying your home has no burglar alarm. As it happens, the company that owns the Century 16 Cineplex in Aurora had declared the property a gun-free zone.

I recently mocked the idea of gun-free zones with several amusing posters. It’s unbelievable that some people think that killers care about such rules.



One place that isn’t likely to see any massacres is Colorado State University.

For much of the population of a typical campus, concealed-carry permitting is not an issue. Most states that issue permits will grant them only to people who are at least 21 years old. But the crime-rate statistics at universities that do allow permit holders on campus with their weapons are instructive. An hour north of Boulder, in Fort Collins, sits Colorado State University. Concealed carry has been allowed at CSU since 2003, and according to James Alderden, the former sheriff of Larimer County, which encompasses Fort Collins, violent crime at Colorado State has dropped since then.

I also recommend this video, which makes fun of those who support gun-free zones.

Here is Goldberg’s conclusion.

But I am sympathetic to the idea of armed self-defense, because it does often work, because encouraging learned helplessness is morally corrupt, and because, however much I might wish it, the United States is not going to become Canada. Guns are with us, whether we like it or not. Maybe this is tragic, but it is also reality. So Americans who are qualified to possess firearms shouldn’t be denied the right to participate in their own defense. And it is empirically true that the great majority of America’s tens of millions of law-abiding gun owners have not created chaos in society.

Goldberg’s article, by the way, doesn’t even mention the value of private gun ownership when government fails to maintain public order, as occurred after Hurricane Sandy and during last year’s British riots.

I have a couple of final things to share, including this this video about a woman who lost her parents because she decided to obey a bad government law. And here’s a great study from Cato about individuals using guns to protect themselves.

Daniel J. Mitchell
Daniel J. Mitchell is a top expert on tax reform and supply-side tax policy at the Cato Institute.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:16 AM   #3272 (permalink)
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I am not for outlawing guns across the board but the laws need to change! Some guns I BELIEVE people have no RIGHT to own. It's time! Those children had right too.

Think of it this way....
One shoe bomber on a plan....now we all take our shoes off at the airport. Many, many of these shootings have happen and no changes to the laws. It's reprehensible!
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:24 AM   #3273 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Q734 View Post
Why people are thanking this post is blowing my mind. Ignore list just grew.
There is only one reason and ONE reason only for a gun that shoots multiple rounds per second and it's not for deer hunting.

And don't give me that it's protection from the government crap- all they have to do is point a microwave gun @ you and your AR-15 & you're toast.

DIAF already.
regarding multiple rounds per second... not sure many people own those types of guns.. i guess one could squeeze a few per second from a standard semi-auto pistol or rifle. You can get on old WWI vintage Lee Enfield bolt riflt in good working condition - British soldiers were trained to squeeze 30 rounds per minute out of one.

Proposal: The Barney Fife Bill. Gun owners can only have one bullet at their disposal at any one time.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:30 AM   #3274 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueberry View Post
I am not for outlawing guns across the board but the laws need to change! Some guns I BELIEVE people have no RIGHT to own. It's time! Those children had right too.

Think of it this way....
One shoe bomber on a plan....now we all take our shoes off at the airport. Many, many of these shootings have happen and no changes to the laws. It's reprehensible!
The problem is, given the current sentiment, those that want to ban guns want to ban guns. All of them. Just look at Europe and other countries that the general citizenry can't have guns without lots of red tape - that's the model.

I haven't read the details about what particular firearms the connecticut shooter mental wacko was using... wasn't it pretty much standard fare guns?

Last edited by dobermansrule; 12-17-2012 at 09:33 AM..
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:12 AM   #3275 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobermansrule View Post
The problem is, given the current sentiment, those that want to ban guns want to ban guns. All of them. Just look at Europe and other countries that the general citizenry can't have guns without lots of red tape - that's the model.

I haven't read the details about what particular firearms the connecticut shooter mental wacko was using... wasn't it pretty much standard fare guns?

Main gun in Newtown also used in D.C. sniper shootings

I would not consider this gun as standard fare but I'm sure some will.

Last edited by blueberry; 12-17-2012 at 10:14 AM..
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