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Old 12-31-2012, 01:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
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New food

I was using Orijen large breed puppy food but its been difficult to find since their fire and am currently looking for a new food for my 5 month old puppy. I'm having issues finding a grain free food for all life stages besides taste of the wild Sierra mountain. Suggestions would be appreciated. I'd prefer 5 star. Am I able to switch to just regular adult food yet? I worry about the protein/mineral ratios.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:04 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Have you tried ordering from chewy.com? They have prices as low as my local store and free shipping on orders that are large enough (one of the big bags would certainly qualify). If not, you could probably easily switch him to the regular Orijen adult formula.
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:51 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I did yesterday but I guess their out. Is it just a few types of orijen that are out or is it all of them? Do I not need to worry about the minerals on their regular food since he's still growing ? He's 20 weeks today. If i can't find the same food I think I'm gonna try natures instinct out
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:52 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I did yesterday but I guess their out. Is it just a few types of orijen that are out or is it all of them? Do I not need to worry about the minerals on their regular food since he's still growing ? He's 20 weeks today. If i can't find the same food I think I'm gonna try natures instinct out
The calcium/phosphorus levels in the regular adult formula and in the large breed puppy formula are nearly identical. My not-quite-six-month-old pup is on Orijen adult.
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:13 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I switched from Orijen LB Puppy when my boy was 5 months to FROMM Grain free. Their recipes are made to be interchangeable. The Surf and Turf has the highest amount of protein and that is what I transitioned him onto because Orijen's LB Puppy formula was very high in protein compared to the other formulas out there.

Also I can not say enough positive things about NV Instinct. We sell it where I work, and we also sell the NV Instinct Frozen Raw Diet. My dogs LOVE these! I often defrost the medallions and give them as treats or add them to their food. The NEW NV Instinct with freeze dried raw bits is pretty good too!

SO - FROMM Grain free and NV... great diets. and both of these diets are ALS diets. My boy thrives on them!
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:17 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I am still loyal to Taste of the wild. Its a great grain free food that is at the right price point, with several interchangeable recipes. People here will tell you "don't get taste of the wild, its owned by DIAMOND and they produce crap." Yes, the company was bought out by diamond, but the TOTW reps still assure us that their facilities are managed by TOTW and their product is the ONLY one manufactured in their building with no other diamond products. Diamond just stamped their name on it to take profit from it.. and TOTW benefits because they have the backing of a bigger company who can eat some of the up front costs that the small company alone could not.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:26 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Be that as it may, Taste of the Wild was recalled right along with all of the other products manufactured at Diamond's Gaston, S. Carolina plant. I have not found manufacturers' reps to be the most credible sources of information, in general.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Be that as it may, Taste of the Wild was recalled right along with all of the other products manufactured at Diamond's Gaston, S. Carolina plant. I have not found manufacturers' reps to be the most credible sources of information, in general.
Yup.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:35 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Be that as it may, Taste of the Wild was recalled right along with all of the other products manufactured at Diamond's Gaston, S. Carolina plant. I have not found manufacturers' reps to be the most credible sources of information, in general.
I have to agree and most reps will vouch for any product or company they work for. Doing otherwise could be detrimental to their overall survival in general.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:12 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Have you considered a raw premade diet? I am partial to Vital Essentials, and my dogs have never been healthier. It will pack on a LOT of muscle--just a forewarning. I also really like Earthborn Grain Free. I believe they have a Large breed puppy formula. However I have never been a believer in feeding for different life stages. I believe a great food should have enough nutrition to support a dog from puppyhood to maturity.

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Old 01-02-2013, 12:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I have to agree and most reps will vouch for any product or company they work for. Doing otherwise could be detrimental to their overall survival in general.
I do agree with you guys, reps are never to be trusted.. but you can't always deem everyone as liars. What I go on mostly is the product. I tried switching Roz to orijin and acaina(sp?) on two separate occasions. Gave it a full two months to let her system adjust.. non formed stools the entire time! I just know her system processes TOTW perfectly, she has plenty of energy, and her coat and health are wonderful. She is 4 and doesn't have a speck of tartar... but perhaps that is more attributed to the antlers and sun cured raw hides that I get her. Also, when my flat coat was still around, he had terrriibbllee food allergies. Everything I tried just gave him massive hot spots all over his body. Then I found orijin. I switched him to that and it cleared up his skin, but his poops were always terrible. Probably too much protein for my Sr. dog. I was recommended to try TOTW. When I switched to it, none of the skin issues came back and his poops were finally, dare I say, perfect!

So on experience I recommend TOTW.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:59 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Have you tried Acana?
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:37 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I just love you siggy Rouleaux! BEYOND cute!
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:42 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I have heard good things about Acana.

But, every dog is an individual. I would have to say that as long as you aren't feeding him cuddy food brands like Beneful, Pedigree or the like (Gravy Train, etc.) you are on the right track and care about your dog's health.

Nature's Variety Instinct has Frozen Raw Patties in interchangeable recipies that Rou loves to eat! Check that out! I feed it every now and then, but when I had a lot of them I would see a huge difference in his skin, coat, and overall condition. Plus his stools were always formed.

Your guy isn't getting table food, is he?
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:15 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Your guy isn't getting table food, is he?
You say that like there's something wrong with table food! For dogs being fed kibble, a handful of good table scraps on top of each meal was found to be one means to reduce the risk of bloat. Table food is only a bad idea if the person whose table it is eats a lousy diet (processed, starchy, sugary, etc.)... other than that, it is probably the healthiest part of what goes in your dog's dish.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I do agree with you guys, reps are never to be trusted.. but you can't always deem everyone as liars. What I go on mostly is the product. I tried switching Roz to orijin and acaina(sp?) on two separate occasions. Gave it a full two months to let her system adjust.. non formed stools the entire time! I just know her system processes TOTW perfectly, she has plenty of energy, and her coat and health are wonderful. She is 4 and doesn't have a speck of tartar... but perhaps that is more attributed to the antlers and sun cured raw hides that I get her. Also, when my flat coat was still around, he had terrriibbllee food allergies. Everything I tried just gave him massive hot spots all over his body. Then I found orijin. I switched him to that and it cleared up his skin, but his poops were always terrible. Probably too much protein for my Sr. dog. I was recommended to try TOTW. When I switched to it, none of the skin issues came back and his poops were finally, dare I say, perfect!

So on experience I recommend TOTW.
I think a lot of times when dogs have problems on high end, high protein foods, it's because they are actually getting way too much. It's easy to overfeed, because foods like Orijen are often at least 100 calories more per cup that other foods. Not saying that's what happened her, but that's pretty common.

Also, senior dogs actually need higher protein levels than younger dogs, because their bodies begin losing the ability to absorb as much from their food. I'm always puzzled by "senior dog foods" that are low protein, because that is not what their bodies need!

That said, every dog is an individual and what's works best for your dog is what's best for them.

Quote:
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You say that like there's something wrong with table food! For dogs being fed kibble, a handful of good table scraps on top of each meal was found to be one means to reduce the risk of bloat. Table food is only a bad idea if the person whose table it is eats a lousy diet (processed, starchy, sugary, etc.)... other than that, it is probably the healthiest part of what goes in your dog's dish.
I also think adding in "people food" is great for dogs. With Shanoa, we did have to introduce new foods slowly and in small portions because she had a bit of a sensitive stomach. But she regularly gets things added to her bowl: raw eggs, sardines, cottage cheese, yogurt, either raw or cooked meat...she loves it and it's good for her. It's not every meal, and not all that stuff at once, but human foods that are appropriate (i.e. not dangerous or poisonous) for dogs are great to feed. Just remember to reduce the amount of kibble you feed, or you'll end up with a fat dog.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:18 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Also, senior dogs actually need higher protein levels than younger dogs, because their bodies begin losing the ability to absorb as much from their food. I'm always puzzled by "senior dog foods" that are low protein, because that is not what their bodies need!
I'm going to have to politely disagree on this a bit.. unless something has changed in the last year I have been in school and not working in the vet field. Senior dogs tend to lose kidney function, and their kidneys become diseased the older they get. High protein puts extra stress on them and assists in shutting them down faster. ---if I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but I've been going to nutrition seminars for years now and every canine/feline nutritionist has stressed this fact.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:34 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I'm going to have to politely disagree on this a bit.. unless something has changed in the last year I have been in school and not working in the vet field. Senior dogs tend to lose kidney function, and their kidneys become diseased the older they get. High protein puts extra stress on them and assists in shutting them down faster. ---if I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but I've been going to nutrition seminars for years now and every canine/feline nutritionist has stressed this fact.
Well, the newest research says differently, I'm afraid. There's an awesome article in the Whole Dog Journal that goes into detail about the studies, but I can't link it because it's subscription only.

Also, the entire first page of Google results links to several other articles stating the same:

Protein Requirements in Senior Dogs - You Might be Surprised | Dog Star Daily
ASPCA | Feeding Older Dogs
DogAware.com Articles: Diets for Senior Dogs
Surprising Findings about Dog Food for Older Dogs
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All of this is based studies that are a few years old. I often find that many veterinarians (not all, thank goodness!) are quite behind when it comes to the field of companion animal nutrition. If you are in the veterinary field (tech, I think you said?) you may want to dig up the actual studies and give them a read; I'm sure they'd be valuable to you and your clients.

***Edited to add: the idea that high protein diets cause kidney damage has been debunked.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Thanks! I will check those out!

I'm sure they will be coming out with tons of new studies.. as I think this is the second generation of sr dogs we have since starting high protein diets. We didn't have the info just a few years back about feeding these types of diets... I've been waiting for new studies to come up about the subject. All my human anatomy studies have gotten in the way of me getting wind of these new studies! Lol..

p.s. (former vet tech, my last job ended about a year ago when I decided to go back to school full time)
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:39 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Although, I am never satisfied with google searches. I will get in contact with some vet friends and get new scientific studies from their publishings. You can never trust what is on the internet.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:43 PM   #22 (permalink)
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All my human anatomy studies have gotten in the way of me getting wind of these new studies!
Ahh, human anatomy class...so much fun! One of my favorite classes ever.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:51 PM   #23 (permalink)
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You say that like there's something wrong with table food! For dogs being fed kibble, a handful of good table scraps on top of each meal was found to be one means to reduce the risk of bloat. Table food is only a bad idea if the person whose table it is eats a lousy diet (processed, starchy, sugary, etc.)... other than that, it is probably the healthiest part of what goes in your dog's dish.
Exactly my point. Does OP have children that come over to the house or older folk who think it is okay to give the dog doughnuts? Do they get into the garbage and eat grease from the night before? Do they get into the compost pile outside?

I personally don't give my dog food from my plate or table, but I give turkey for special occasions and not a lot. But do I disagree with your feeling on table food? ABSOLUTELY NOT. But not everyone actually is conscientious of what they feed their dog because he is begging at the base of the kitchen counter. Your idea of table food and the layman's idea of table food varies drastically. How do you know the dog isn't being fed Cocoa Puffs?

But the above questions should be asked too!

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Old 01-03-2013, 01:30 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Although, I am never satisfied with google searches. I will get in contact with some vet friends and get new scientific studies from their publishings. You can never trust what is on the internet.
Well, actually you can trust much of what's on the internet... you just need discernment skills.

From The Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, 2006, published by the National Research Council of the National Academies (THE BIBLE): “Older dogs appear to require somewhat more crude protein to maintain labile protein (so-called protein reserves), perhaps as much as 50% more (Wannemacher and McCoy, 1966). The optimal concentrations for other variables and outcomes (e.g., optimal immune response, wound healing, health in old age) have to be evaluated before more specific recommendations can be made.” THEY KNEW THIS IN 1966!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I didn't used to be this cynical, but now I sorta am. Who does the research? Dog food companies. What is the single most expensive component of their products? Animal protein. What is it in their best interest for the research to find??? For bonus points: who writes many/most of the animal nutrition texts used in vet schools?

You ever see a big old dog who has gotten sorta weak in the back end and hollow in the hips? That's protein deficiency.

Makes me want to puke...

The Orijen White Paper, just because anyone interested in canine nutrition should read it! http://files.championpetfoods.com/OR...hite_Paper.pdf .
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:15 AM   #25 (permalink)
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You ever see a big old dog who has gotten sorta weak in the back end and hollow in the hips? That's protein deficiency.

Makes me want to puke...
I'm going to pick out this point because it is not -always- true. My flat coat was on orijin for several years, and switched to TOTW because his stool were never great on orijin. Was on a high protein diet for the majority of his life. We had to let him go 3 months ago because he had completely atrophied in his back legs and hips. Despite all the supplements and good nutrition, his muscle loss could not be controlled, and he could no longer stand or walk on his own. There are other factors in hind end atrophy, and more often than not, it is spondylosis of the lumbar spine. Not the kind that only forms bridging between the vertebrae per say, but the kind that narrows the spinal canal.

You are right, food companies pay for studies.. but they study so they can improve as well. I don't really pay attention to studies paid for by a financially interested party though... just the ones released via news letter directly to veterinarians by reputable researchers, who are often retired veterinarians themselves.

I want to make clear here; I am not arguing that high protein is bad for seniors when it comes to muscle mass and over all health. Its just something that is avoided often times in seniors because of risk to their kidneys. As long as routine bloodwork is done to make sure there is no strain on these vital organs, then it is perfectly acceptable and most likely a wise choice for a sr pet. As I said, I only trust sound research.. so I cannot make a definitive statement either way. That is the wonder of science, it is constantly growing and improving.
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