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Old 01-03-2013, 03:20 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JennZilla View Post
I am not arguing that high protein is bad for seniors when it comes to muscle mass and over all health. Its just something that is avoided often times in seniors because of risk to their kidneys
As MeadowCat already pointed out, protein does not pose risk to kidneys. If a dog's kidneys are beginning to fail, it is phosphorus which needs to be reduced, not protein (admittedly, it is difficult to reduce phosphorus without affecting protein level, since they tend to ride along together... but, it ain't about the protein!). When a dog is in the very end stages of kidney disease, reducing protein will allow the dog to feel a little less crappy in his final days... this is a comfort thing, not a medical management of disease thing. Reducing protein will not prevent nor slow the progression of kidney disease, just as providing abundant protein will not cause kidney disease.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm going to pick out this point because it is not -always- true. My flat coat was on orijin for several years, and switched to TOTW because his stool were never great on orijin. Was on a high protein diet for the majority of his life. We had to let him go 3 months ago because he had completely atrophied in his back legs and hips. Despite all the supplements and good nutrition, his muscle loss could not be controlled, and he could no longer stand or walk on his own. There are other factors in hind end atrophy
I did not mean to sound as if I was saying that protein deficiency was the single cause of loss of muscle mass. Of course, if injury or disease or some degeneration prevents exercise, this will lead to atrophy, as well.
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:14 PM   #28 (permalink)
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As MeadowCat already pointed out, protein does not pose risk to kidneys.
If I ever said that to any of the vets I have worked with over the years, they would laugh in my face. Thats ok, I don't wish to argue.
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:29 PM   #29 (permalink)
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If I ever said that to any of the vets I have worked with over the years, they would laugh in my face. Thats ok, I don't wish to argue.
Vets are not crash-hot on nutrition since they don't get a lot of education for their degree and the most non-college education about nutrition they get is from the dog food companies. It is the same problem with doctors - they suck at nutrition and alternative methods (on the average, just in case I am offending someone on here who is a more responsible type of human doctor). We are in the depths of stage 4 cancer here at home so I am somewhat conversant with what I say. And considering the state of Yoda's health and that he has outlived his dx, maybe there is something I am doing right.
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:42 PM   #30 (permalink)
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You are right, food companies pay for studies.. but they study so they can improve as well. I don't really pay attention to studies paid for by a financially interested party though... just the ones released via news letter directly to veterinarians by reputable researchers, who are often retired veterinarians themselves.
Research does not always come with an inclusion regarding the source of funding, and research is expensive. Who do you think is gonna cough up the bucks, if not a financially interested party? This is why there is no (or practically no) research directly comparing commercial kibbled diets to raw... there are no corporate entities with the kind of financial resources it would take to fund such studies except the entities which manufacture kibble, and they certainly ain't gonna go there.

As for retired vets... the ones I know buy a retirement home, sometimes, or travel... many of them go fishing a lot, or miss their former lives and go back to work a couple of days a week for a veterinarian friend. The proper design of research studies is not a skill developed either in veterinary school or during their career practicing medicine. I would be very surprised if there was a significant number of retired veterinarians doing research.

This study is interesting: Perceptions, practices, and consequences associated with foodborne pathogens and the feeding of raw meat to dogs. Basically, it says that they might have found some stuff, but that they couldn't attribute this to that, and couldn't really draw conclusions. It ends with "In addition to veterinary consultation, development and dissemination of credible literature about the health implications of various pet diets, especially in media perused by those choosing alternative diets for their dogs (such as the Internet, newspapers, magazines, and books), would be helpful in order to provide science-based information to pet owners, so that they are able to make better informed decisions. However, because of the affective and ideological components involved in the choice to feed raw meat, even the most comprehensive scientific review will not persuade all owners to change their feeding practices." I would suggest that methods for persuading owners to change their feeding prectices was the whole point of the study. It was paid for by Purina.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:24 PM   #31 (permalink)
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--quick line about retired vets-- every single seminar I have gone to (.. except the hills seminars.. those are a joke for the most part) have been instructed by retired veterinarians doing research. The body is unwilling far before the interest. Good vets love what they do, and have a hard time not doing it.

All valid points. But I would never consider myself more wise than a veterinarian ("i" being a general statement of any human that is not a veterinarian, not just my personal knowledge base)... the schooling they go through is intense, even at the minimum level. I know they aren't gods, but I'm not going to discount their education and general intelligence paired with their love for animals.

We are in an age where loads of new information is getting revealed and health care is getting an overhaul on all sides. I mean OHSU of all places voluntarily without me having asked, is recommending herbals for a few of my medical conditions. They were allllll about strictly western medicine until maybe a year or two ago.

The point being, it is good to keep an open mind, but you can never believe that you are absolutely right about something.. because a few years later that fact will become incorrect information.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:27 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Although.. you can take that further into conspiracy theories of pushing new products when pharmaceutical/herbal supplement companies aren't making enough profit margin and need to bring out new "research" to back their newest product.

Its hard to know who you can trust now a days :/
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