Can Natural (ears floppy and undocked tailed) dobies compete in AKC shows? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-30-2011, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
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Can Natural (ears floppy and undocked tailed) dobies compete in AKC shows?

Hi, I was thinking of getting a dobie and showing it. I was hoping to keep the pup natural, but I will crop and dock the tail, if i won't be able to compete.
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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-30-2011, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bookmans1 View Post
Hi, I was thinking of getting a dobie and showing it. I was hoping to keep the pup natural, but I will crop and dock the tail, if i won't be able to compete.
Neither uncropped ears or an undocked tail are a disqualification,so you'd be allowrd to compete. The big question is if you'd be successful. Our standard calls for cropped ears and a docked tail, anything else is faulty, and will be penalized.

There have been no more than 6 dobermans with uncropped ears who have earned an AKC championship.

There has never been an undocked doberman who's earned an AKC championship.

The combination of both? An almost impossible mountain to climb.

To be honest, the people who produce dogs who win in the show ring just aren't going to sell you a puppy with an undocked tail. It's extremely difficult to even find one who'll sell uncropped puppies.

Last edited by Murreydobe; 07-30-2011 at 11:45 AM.
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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-30-2011, 11:51 AM
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I agree with murrydobe, and the last sentance especially. Breeders putting out competitive dogs that will finish are sending them out docked and cropped. A natural dog in the states has about a zero percent chance of finishing. The breeders who will give you a fully natural dog are probably not breeding the kinds of dogs that will finish anyways, most of the time at least. Showing is about how closely your dog fits the standard, and cropped/docked is part of the standard.
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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-30-2011, 02:43 PM
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like the previous posters have said, your dog will not be disqualified for being all natural but they'll be penalized. so you can still show.

if you find a show breeder willing to sell you an all natural puppy, and allow you to show it, and if you're aware that it will be very difficult.. then go for it.

something clever goes here.
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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-30-2011, 03:16 PM
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You can show in any AKC venue such as obedience, agility, Rally...etc with any Doberman as long as it has AKC registration. The conformation ring will penalize floppy ears and a long tail but will not disqualify you..... not sure I'd want to do conformation with a dog with a tail for sure....ears maybe.

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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-02-2011, 12:11 PM
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I believe and hope, that in not too long we will be seeing more and more Natural Doberman, in and out of the rings.

I would love to have a quality one to show right now. if I wanted to show again.

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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-02-2011, 12:18 PM
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If you wanna show a all natural dobermann, try UKC, they are much open to all natural ones and i know a few UKC CH what are all natural. AKC i doubt you will ever have a chance with a all natural, not in the near future.

Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-02-2011, 02:06 PM
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Wonder how one of those nice ones from the English shows that Doug posted about would do?
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-02-2011, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathy43 View Post
Wonder how one of those nice ones from the English shows that Doug posted about would do?
Here's what he said about that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
Most of the dogs in these pictures could compete well in this country if cropped and docked, or if they were not penalized for their uncropped eard or undocked tails.


Last edited by Abby; 08-02-2011 at 02:22 PM.
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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-02-2011, 03:31 PM
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Right now it is just not about how they would do in the conformation ring but more so for educating the public and familiarizing the Breed people, handlers, judges, etc. to the Natural Doberman.......winning at this time would be a bonus for sure ............ it would take the right Judge and the right dog. But it will happen one day.

I wonder who will be the breeder of the first all natural Doberman to gain an AKC Conformation Championship?

I wonder if i will still be here to see it?

Hugz to all Doberman!

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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-02-2011, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathy43 View Post
Wonder how one of those nice ones from the English shows that Doug posted about would do?
Probably get excused from the ring a lot.
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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murreydobe View Post
Probably get excused from the ring a lot.
Instead of just getting dumped? A shame, actually.
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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathy43 View Post
A shame, actually.
We'll have to agree to disagree about that.
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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 12:57 PM
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hmmmmm, if the natural dobe is allowed to compete.............then they should not be exused from the ring unless they have a disqualifying fault.

Interesting times ahead.

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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 02:28 PM
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Or if they show undue aggression...

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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkevs View Post
hmmmmm, if the natural dobe is allowed to compete.............then they should not be exused from the ring unless they have a disqualifying fault.

Interesting times ahead.
Every judge has the right to excuse a dog from their ring if they feel the dog lacks breed type.
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 05:06 PM
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If you want to show and be competitive then you need to make it as easy as possible for a judge to put your dog up. Presentation, conditioning and grooming are all going to count if done correctly. Why anyone would want to purposely make it hard for a judge to put up an otherwise nice dog is beyond me. Cropped and docked certainly makes it much easier for a judge to look down the line-up and compare dogs.

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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 05:12 PM
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I need to brush up on my rules for Judging.

So a judge has the right to excuse a dog from the ring if he/she feels the dog lacks breed type?

Are these rules written down anywhere?

I found the AKC Judges rules..................http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/REJ999.pdf

"This insert is issued as a supplement to the “Rules,
Policies and Guidelines for Conformation Dog
Show Judges”
Effective Immediately
Replace the existing policy “Individual
Examination of Dogs,” on page 12, with the
following:
[P] Individual Examination of Dogs Judges are
expected to examine and gait every dog in the
same objective, breed-specific manner even if a
poor specimen may clearly be out of the ribbons.
This includes breeds that according to their
breed standard traditionally have been cropped
and/or docked and dogs entered which may
have deviations from the breed standard.
Approach dogs calmly. Examine each with a
gentle but sure touch and no sudden, surprising
moves.
Approved by AKC Board of Directors"


Last edited by Darkevs; 08-03-2011 at 05:41 PM.
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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkevs View Post
I need to brush up on my rules for Judging.

So a judge has the right to excuse a dog from the ring if he/she feels the dog lacks breed type?

Are these rules written down anywhere?
Yes, they can.



http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/REJ999.pdf

page 16-"you may excuse any dog for lack of merit"
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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 05:42 PM
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It's o-k if we disagree; I'm cool with it.

I do hate to see breed type dependent on a man made thing(procedure) though. Just as an aside: I support the right to choose. I think it would be cool to have one of each, all natural and C/D. Maybe next time.
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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathy43 View Post

I do hate to see breed type dependent on a man made thing(procedure) though. Just as an aside: I support the right to choose. .
A really important element of type is the dog's outline. If the outline is changed, type is changed. Drop ears, and especially those godawful tails make a huge change in that outline.
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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 06:06 PM
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And those godawful long ear crops do not change the outline?

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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murreydobe View Post
A really important element of type is the dog's outline. If the outline is changed, type is changed. Drop ears, and especially those godawful tails make a huge change in that outline.
LOL. And we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that.
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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathy43 View Post
Wonder how one of those nice ones from the English shows that Doug posted about would do?
I have no doubt that any number of our powerful top tier professional handlers could easily finish some of the the dogs I saw in the UK if they wanted to stand the flack from the hard-liners. However, it might be insurmountable for us mere mortals to try to finish one. I think that very few judges would be foolish enough to excuse a Quality Doberman even with a tail, but they may not have the courage to place it unless it is handled by one of the beauthiful people.

I want to be clear. I promote cropped and docked Dobermans. I will fight for the right to crop and dock my dogs to my last breath. If that right is taken away, I would have to consider my options. I could and have lived with natural ears. I would have to think long and hard if I would want to bother to continue to exhibit Dobermans if I had to leave tails on them, or just keep my personal cropped and docked dogs at home. Sure, as a judge, it is easy to tell the good ones from the bad ones with or without a tail and I think that anyone that wants to exhibit an uncropped and/or undocked dog should be able to without penalty. However, I think that prohibiting docking and cropping would be a serious blow to the breed. It doesn't seem to have had a big impact on the breed in the UK so far. In Germany their National Specialty used to have a 500 dog entry when they could crop and dock, now they are lucky if they can draw 100.

As far as selling puppies with natural ears and/or tails, we have only done it once to date. The problem is that these dogs have my kennel name on them for life and I want them to be a credit to the breed. Most importantly, if the buyer is not happy with the dog, we want it back and I do not want to have to face re-homing a puppy that is too old to crop or dock. Just ask any rescue organization. The docked and cropped puppies are a lot easier to place than the natural ones.


Last edited by Kansadobe; 08-03-2011 at 06:11 PM.
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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-03-2011, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkevs View Post
And those godawful long ear crops do not change the outline?
Our standard calls for cropped ears and a docked tail-that's part of the parameters of the outline.

Unless/until our standard is changed (and I would fight that with the last breath in my body), this is a cropped/docked breed.
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