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Old 11-17-2012, 12:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Interesting Development...

So remember when I said that I wasn't really fond of the idea of playing rescue lottery in terms of health and temperament and wanted a dog from a reputable breeder because of it? Oops.

So there's this doberman that popped up on my radar, Canada but willing to transport, no kids/no aversives is the only requirement, no adoption fee but willing to take a donation (which I would definitely do). He might be taken, rescuer is waiting on landlord to approve adopter. I threw her my information as well because I have recently discovered my landlord doesn't care about animals as long as they don't destroy anything or cause trouble- this includes BSL breeds. I've been avoiding getting a dog for the next couple years because I don't have time for a puppy... but I do have time for an adult!

All the information I've been reading has been on puppies! Does anyone experienced with doberman rescue have any tips or warnings for me?
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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What rescue in Canada?
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Not an agency. He was taken in to be euthed and they refused, instead got the owner to sign the dog over to them. Just a person who worked at the clinic with a big heart. He was taken because he was too "aggressive/dominant" because he apparently doesn't like to be zapped with a shock collar. They had a professional evaluate him and he came up fine, knows his basics well, just can't do anything but pure +R because he reacts badly to it. Mocha and Titan are the same; Titan popped me one on the arm when sister told me to try a choke collar on him, Mocha shows teeth if she's being physically corrected- or at least they used to have these issues as I haven't seen them reappear since going +R-only with them.

This is off of a bully forum, and trust me they are NOT shy about euthing HA dogs. Many members are of the opinion that one bite = you're done, no exceptions. She's even said that if the trainer thought he was aggressive she'd have him euthed herself.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Little poke.

The other person was unable to take him, so I am next in line. She knows I have Saffron and will be cat-testing him sometime this week. If he passes, he's mine! He's 2, black&rust, cropped and docked. Apparently a total sweetheart, just can't handle physical corrections.

So... any seasoned rescuers have any tips for me? Not my first rescue dog, but my first doberman and my first adult. I could always learn a thing or two
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:34 PM   #5 (permalink)
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No advice but good luck


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Old 11-18-2012, 10:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Transport from where in Canada to Pennsylvania????
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I have had 2 rescue dobies, 1 that was fully trained when she came to me and the one now who knew nothing and is SUPER sensitive. He has zero aggression, but only positive reinforcement training (which is all I do anyway) works for him...if not he completely shuts down. When I got him, I knew this about him and was prepared for the work that I knew was ahead of us. It sounds like you are going into this knowing his history and you are willing to work with him, so that is in your favor...just be cautious and get in with a good trainer right away. I wish you good luck!

BTW, I had the great debate of going to a reputable breeder or taking a chance on future health issues with a rescue. My logic was that there are plenty of rescues in need of loving homes, and I would give him just that for whatever period of time that I have with him! I'm glad that you changed your mind too
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:11 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Transport from where in Canada to Pennsylvania????
Apologies, thought you were looking for name over location. Ontario She's been down through my state before and estimates she's about 8 hours' drive from me.

Quote:
I have had 2 rescue dobies, 1 that was fully trained when she came to me and the one now who knew nothing and is SUPER sensitive. He has zero aggression, but only positive reinforcement training (which is all I do anyway) works for him...if not he completely shuts down. When I got him, I knew this about him and was prepared for the work that I knew was ahead of us. It sounds like you are going into this knowing his history and you are willing to work with him, so that is in your favor...just be cautious and get in with a good trainer right away. I wish you good luck!

BTW, I had the great debate of going to a reputable breeder or taking a chance on future health issues with a rescue. My logic was that there are plenty of rescues in need of loving homes, and I would give him just that for whatever period of time that I have with him! I'm glad that you changed your mind too
According to her, he knows his basics but pulls like the devil on the leash. Easy enough to fix even with being "restricted" to +R. Good with other dogs, not sure yet for cats. I've been scouring the state for a decent trainer or behaviorist to at least tell me what I might not be able to see myself. I'm no pro My problem is currently that it looks like there is literally no one in my city that does more than puppy obedience.

I've been leaning more and more toward rescue these past couple months. Maybe one day I can have a fancy papered working pup that I can reach for the top with like I'd planned, but at the moment with my schedule and resources a good ol' rescue boy is fine with me. Of course that doesn't mean that, if possible, I'm going to overlook the PAL program I do still want to compete, if I can!
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Apologies, thought you were looking for name over location. Ontario She's been down through my state before and estimates she's about 8 hours' drive from me.



According to her, he knows his basics but pulls like the devil on the leash. Easy enough to fix even with being "restricted" to +R. Good with other dogs, not sure yet for cats. I've been scouring the state for a decent trainer or behaviorist to at least tell me what I might not be able to see myself. I'm no pro My problem is currently that it looks like there is literally no one in my city that does more than puppy obedience.

I've been leaning more and more toward rescue these past couple months. Maybe one day I can have a fancy papered working pup that I can reach for the top with like I'd planned, but at the moment with my schedule and resources a good ol' rescue boy is fine with me. Of course that doesn't mean that, if possible, I'm going to overlook the PAL program I do still want to compete, if I can!
I have the same problem with finding decent trainers nearby. I was fortunate to find 1 since I am not a pro with this training stuff either, and his methods have worked great! I hope that you can find somebody to help. Hopefully some TLC and pos training work for this boy, and you can do some things that you were hoping to with a dobe. My rescue is being evaluated to be a visiting pet at hospitals and nursing homes after the holidays, and we are now entering the world of agility. These are 2 things that I never thought that he would be able to do because he was so fearful of everything...so there is hope for this poor guy you are looking at. I look forward to hearing updates on the situation.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:23 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I have the same problem with finding decent trainers nearby. I was fortunate to find 1 since I am not a pro with this training stuff either, and his methods have worked great! I hope that you can find somebody to help. Hopefully some TLC and pos training work for this boy, and you can do some things that you were hoping to with a dobe. My rescue is being evaluated to be a visiting pet at hospitals and nursing homes after the holidays, and we are now entering the world of agility. These are 2 things that I never thought that he would be able to do because he was so fearful of everything...so there is hope for this poor guy you are looking at. I look forward to hearing updates on the situation.
I think my google skills just suck. After I posted that I just plugged in "lancaster dog training" and while I got some out in California I found 2 that claim to use positive methods! One is only 10 minutes away from the house and has pictures of dobermans in her classes, plus all of her trainers feed raw and they discuss clickers and the like on their blog and facebook page. I've sent her an email explaining the situation from his "bite history" to the fact that he is still *not* mine and asked if she would still be willing to accept a dog like him into her program. I guess we'll find out tomorrow when business hours open back up! She does nearly everything I would have wanted aside from dock diving (might give up for that one) and sch (which he's probably not suited for anyway).

Congrats on your rescue boy's success! I love hearing stories like that My sister's bait rescue pitty works with special ed kiddos at one of my city's public middle schools... and this was a dog that was terrified of everything before!
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:36 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Update! She's arranging for a home check of some kind, we've been discussing me doing a skype walkaround if she cannot travel here to do it herself. I believe this means we're well on our way? I've never formally adopted a dog before, always just been the middleman. This is rather exciting!
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:43 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Pictures! He's still at the clinic, but she welcomed me to post pictures here These were (obviously) not taken by me.








I passed the written application (ugh, 10 pages. VERY thorough rescue app) and the interview with the trainer she has him set up with. Home check will be via a local rescue connection here this weekend and they said that with everything I've told them it sounds like I would be a very good match for him so the home check is more a formality. Should the home check this weekend go through, I'd be given a ride from my roommate up to Buffalo to pick him up... we're going halvies

I've been emailed his written history and it looks like I'm his 4th home in 2 years, poor boy! He was purchased from EuroDobes (not ringing any bells?) by a trucker who gave him to someone in a small apartment who gave him to a horse farm who gave him to the clinic. They used some pretty intense aversives on him including alpha rolls, putting a choke chain over his muzzle (????!!), and using the prong so hard that he was already beginning to redirect before the final bite that got him surrendered.

So now I'm flying around the place cleaning up and making everything presentable before the home check. The amount of running around that I've done in the past couple days is seriously overwhelming, I don't know how those of you heavily involved in rescue do it. The trainer I found seems interested in working with him, but I was recently informed that some trainers start dogs on +R and proof with aversives which obviously will not work for him. Looks like I get to ask her some more questions then
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:19 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Good luck! The clickertraining yahoogroup is a pretty good group. Although you cannot discuss aversives, etc. It might be a good reference for you for tips, etc.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Sounds like you took on quite a project dog especially for being your first personal Doberman. Kudos to you, HA is not my area of expertise nor something I like to challenge...its exhausting and you are braver than me! I wish you the best of luck and hope he can be truly rehabilitated or managed well at the very least. He is very handsome. It sucks to hear of his start in life, some recover from that trauma but some don't. I hope he is a very good dog for you. My ex had a dominant male GSD that was trained the same way(except this happened at a board and train facility...my ex didn't know any better). Unfortunately his dog was too damaged/too much of a liability and had too many bites on his record. He couldn't bear to euth him so he sent him to a no-kill sanctuary where he keeps him alive in an outside pen for the rest of his life for $80 a month. The dog is only 4.

Rescue is my passion and it is very rewarding and can be a lot of fun, especially fostering. I've been volunteering in rescue for 6 years and will only foster certain types of dogs, there are some behaviorial issues that I just won't deal with, when you're in it for a while sometimes you just get exhausted because while you get a lot of good dogs, you do see a lot that carry the emotional baggage from their former lives. Definitely keep us updated and stat on top of his issues, it sounds like you're going about this the right way

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Old 11-21-2012, 06:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I hope it works for you. This is a dog I was contacted about last week and I wasn't able to help much. I have worried about him although I knew he was safe at the clinic. I hope it works for you. He does sound like a hard luck case that could use a break for sure.
Woohoo I am so excited that I may still be able to know how he does. He sure is handsome.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Sounds like you took on quite a project dog especially for being your first personal Doberman. Kudos to you, HA is not my area of expertise nor something I like to challenge...its exhausting and you are braver than me! I wish you the best of luck and hope he can be truly rehabilitated or managed well at the very least. He is very handsome. It sucks to hear of his start in life, some recover from that trauma but some don't. I hope he is a very good dog for you. My ex had a dominant male GSD that was trained the same way(except this happened at a board and train facility...my ex didn't know any better). Unfortunately his dog was too damaged/too much of a liability and had too many bites on his record. He couldn't bear to euth him so he sent him to a no-kill sanctuary where he keeps him alive in an outside pen for the rest of his life for $80 a month. The dog is only 4.

Rescue is my passion and it is very rewarding and can be a lot of fun, especially fostering. I've been volunteering in rescue for 6 years and will only foster certain types of dogs, there are some behaviorial issues that I just won't deal with, when you're in it for a while sometimes you just get exhausted because while you get a lot of good dogs, you do see a lot that carry the emotional baggage from their former lives. Definitely keep us updated and stat on top of his issues, it sounds like you're going about this the right way
After reading his history, I wouldn't call him human aggressive more than I'd call him possibly reactive and definitely fear aggressive. He seems to be wary/fearful of new people but will open up as soon as he realizes they aren't going to hurt him. I have never dealt with true HA, just dogs that may spiral down toward it, and he pretty much fits the bill. I'm afraid of what may have happened to him if he didn't find a home willing to understand him, and I'm so glad that she took the chance to find him someone... even if it turns out to not be me, I will have been glad to have at least tried to make a difference for him. I'm kinda used to fearful dogs though. Mocha was absolutely terrified and would scream and hide from anyone who got near her... if they cornered her she'd stand her ground and begin to snarl and snap (and BITE, though puppy teeth did not do much damage) and this was as an 8 week old puppy!! We did some pretty intense confidence building with her (was an adventure, she's not food or praise motivated either) and she's a therapy dog now in addition to my dad's service dog, but that was a rough road.

I'm sorry to hear about your ex's GSD, though. Stories like that is what has made me nervous about trusting a trainer, but I've come to realize not all trainers will do that to a dog. I also very much hope that he's able to come out of the shell they've backed him into... I think right now he just needs time and a new approach. He's a goober when he's not watching out for a swat according to his foster mom, so here's hoping they haven't completely squashed his personality too.

I will certainly keep everyone updated one way or the other. Thank you for the well wishes and luck, everyone... seems like we're both gunna need it. Adara, I joined the clicker group- thanks for the tip!
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:45 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Youre right, it's not full blown HA and more reactivity as he is able to function and be around people without immediately wanting to engage them, but you've got a big issue on your hand with how reactive he is to physical correction. There may be times when you will need to yank on his collar or grab him abruptly to get him out of a bad situation, you or other people need to be able up do that without fear of him attacking the handler. There have definitely been times where I've needed to yank my dog's leashes and pull them back from a bad situation. They would never dream of reflecting onto me. You're going to have to get creative in these beginning stages of working with him. I was attacked by my ex's GSD because I was walking out of our apt with Zelda and prime to go to the dog park and there was a guy jogging by. The GSD started barking and growling and started to charge towards the door and my first instinct was to drop my dogs leashes and act really fast to stop this GSD from running out and attacking the jogger, the ex was in the kitchen and nowhere near his dog. I grabbed his scruff and he turned around and latched onto my hand and pinned me against the wall, he held his bite and my ex could not call him off and was barely able to pry his jaws off of me. That dog had been punished and handled so roughly at training that he did not accept any physical correction or restraint from anyone other than his owner. My dogs would not have redirected onto me like that because they are fine being handled in any way in any situation. Just something to think about because managing a young dog and keeping people and the dog safe is a lot of work.

It really angers me to see such beautiful dogs damaged like that by piss poor owners who have no business owning a dog.

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Old 11-21-2012, 11:36 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Eurodobes? Rhonda Sule.
He's very handsome! Have fun with him! Do you have any good training books? Control Unleashed? or "When Pigs Fly" are both great.

Geez his story is so familiar, sounds just like Manson. I wish, if nothing else, Rhonda did a better job screening homes. So sad, and the worst part is, it happens ALL the time. It hurts my heart because I know if Saph didn't have a good home before me, the same thing would have happened to her and that many of her family members are tossed from home to home to home. Poor dogs. I hope to see lots of updates on him.
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:51 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Eurodobes? Rhonda Sule.
He's very handsome! Have fun with him! Do you have any good training books? Control Unleashed? or "When Pigs Fly" are both great.

Geez his story is so familiar, sounds just like Manson. I wish, if nothing else, Rhonda did a better job screening homes. So sad, and the worst part is, it happens ALL the time. It hurts my heart because I know if Saph didn't have a good home before me, the same thing would have happened to her and that many of her family members are tossed from home to home to home. Poor dogs. I hope to see lots of updates on him.
I was asked about a Joanna Puchala as being the breeder. It did not mean anything to me but if it does to you please let me know. I am a bit farther from knowing these people than I used to be. I understand she is in Oshawa. I rescued a girl last year about this time and I had some leads on some BYB or greeders but only by location not name at that time. Since I am in Oshawa I love to hear details of this crap so I can monitor and maybe actually find ways to hinder their business.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:55 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I completely agree that I will have to get creative and think outside of the box for the problem of him reacting to touch. Luckily it's harsh touch that gets him going, not just ANY touch, so hopefully with time and counterconditioning he'll allow me to haul him away in emergency situations, and while he seems wary/fearful of strangers he is willing to accept and trust once they prove they're not going to hurt him. He did seem to be uncomfortable when the professional was messing with him (ie, soft pushing/pulling, picking up feet, etc) though by the end of the assessment he was leaning into her touch, so crossing fingers that going slow and showering him with rewards will help build his confidence back up. He's definitely food motivated, typical doberdrool over smelly treats. He doesn't sound as badly damaged as your ex's GSD, let's hope he recovers better

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It really angers me to see such beautiful dogs damaged like that by piss poor owners who have no business owning a dog.
THIS however needs to be thanked a million times over and then again! I've mentioned before about my hesitation with certain dog sports... the reason I hesitate with those is because there seems to be a prevalence of people in my area who get rotties, GSDs, or dobes, teach them "protection", and then they think it's funny when I ask to pet a dog, they say yes, and as soon as I'm within reach the dog tries to take my hand off. Oh yes, great prank. As an advocate for these breeds I am personally offended whenever I see this happening, to me or otherwise.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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What is Manson's story, and how did it turn out, if you don't mind my asking? I don't have either of those books, but I've heard Control Unleashed mentioned here more than a few times. I've added them to my amazon cart along with some supplies I'll be ordering after the home visit.

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Trucker purchased as puppy from EuroDobes in Oshawa, raised him in cab of truck. Unknown reasons for rehoming.
On who the breeder is, I wasn't supplied a name. This was in his trainer's notes that she forwarded to me once I passed the telephone interview. There is nothing else on his first home, so I believe it's safe to assume that's all I have to go by. His second home had him for 2 weeks in a small apartment, and he landed in his third home as a 1.5yo. Nine months later... we're here.

Looking up those two people, all I'm able to find is Stray Farms. Am I to assume I've found the right place?



EDIT: Forgot to mention, I've been approved to rename him, so if all goes well I will likely be naming him Skoll. For those who are not Norse mythology buffs, Skoll and Hati are brothers, wolves, who chase the sun and moon respectively. The other name I was debating is Heimdall, but I do like Skoll better. He is neutered, fully vaccinated, and microchipped. She'll be setting about changing the chip to my information and she has all of his medical records from his most recent home which she'll be giving to me either sometime soon or when she hands me his leash on the 15th. I believe customs is going to want me to quarantine him for 30 days anyway, but at least I know I don't have to get him jabbed and denutted in the middle of him settling in.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:52 PM   #22 (permalink)
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EDIT: I believe customs is going to want me to quarantine him for 30 days anyway, but at least I know I don't have to get him jabbed and denutted in the middle of him settling in.
There should be no quarantine as long as Rabies is current. That at least should make things easier!
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:30 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I was asked about a Joanna Puchala as being the breeder. It did not mean anything to me but if it does to you please let me know. I am a bit farther from knowing these people than I used to be. I understand she is in Oshawa. I rescued a girl last year about this time and I had some leads on some BYB or greeders but only by location not name at that time. Since I am in Oshawa I love to hear details of this crap so I can monitor and maybe actually find ways to hinder their business.
Oh really? You could very well be right, or who knows, maybe they are both using the same name and dont know it??
Or I could be completely wrong. But, I know a person on this forum got a dog from rhonda and his reg'd name started with Eurodobe.

Sorry Jazi- I don't know what happened with Manson in the end. He was given to a person i know from the "breeder" and at 6 months old, they got rid of him on kijiji- for free. I had said i would take him, but they gave him to someone else. A woman took him, but wasnt aware he had a bite history, had a small child, he bit the kid a couple of times, she put him back on kijiji for $500, i emailed her, told her i know she got the dog for free and if she would like to, i would take him, but i wouldnt pay her. She said she spent too much money on him and wouldnt give him away. About 6wks later, she emailed me asking if i still wanted to take him- he has now bit her and she needs him gone asap. However, she didnt drive and was a couple hours from me. So i had arranged to pick him up a couple weeks later, and the day i was supposed to pick him up, she decided to give him to a person she knew who had a farm because she "needed him gone" So three homes in 6 months. You can search my other posts, there was Bruno as well, basically the same thing happened with him(no bite history though), but i think he had 5 homes by the time he was 1.
These poor dogs never seem to get a chance to *be* well behaved dogs and just get tossed from home to home.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
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[quote=thea2003;1194941]Oh really? You could very well be right, or who knows, maybe they are both using the same name and dont know it??
Or I could be completely wrong. But, I know a person on this forum got a dog from rhonda and his reg'd name started with Eurodobe.

Hey with these people there is no predicting. They are crooks and frauds which means any name could be the one used at any given time. Who can keep track. I would not be surprised if she was involved as she has used many many names in the past.
I hope this dog works out for Jazi..he has had a hard go of it. If he is from Rhonda then hard life right from birth. Man this makes me crazy!
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:45 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by donnatoldu2 View Post
There should be no quarantine as long as Rabies is current. That at least should make things easier!
Sweet! He is fully vetted so everything should be current.

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Originally Posted by thea2003 View Post
Sorry Jazi- I don't know what happened with Manson in the end. He was given to a person i know from the "breeder" and at 6 months old, they got rid of him on kijiji- for free. I had said i would take him, but they gave him to someone else. A woman took him, but wasnt aware he had a bite history, had a small child, he bit the kid a couple of times, she put him back on kijiji for $500, i emailed her, told her i know she got the dog for free and if she would like to, i would take him, but i wouldnt pay her. She said she spent too much money on him and wouldnt give him away. About 6wks later, she emailed me asking if i still wanted to take him- he has now bit her and she needs him gone asap. However, she didnt drive and was a couple hours from me. So i had arranged to pick him up a couple weeks later, and the day i was supposed to pick him up, she decided to give him to a person she knew who had a farm because she "needed him gone" So three homes in 6 months. You can search my other posts, there was Bruno as well, basically the same thing happened with him(no bite history though), but i think he had 5 homes by the time he was 1.
These poor dogs never seem to get a chance to *be* well behaved dogs and just get tossed from home to home.
Poor dogs :/ From the sounds of things he's trying so hard to be a good dog. Barring reports of past reactivity, most of the things his owners put for his behaviors were incorrect or misinterpreted. For instance they said that he was unwilling to drop balls/treats/stolen food but when the clinic had him assessed he gave up the ball easily and, while he scooted away when they tried to take a high value item from him, they were able to take it without growling or teeth. Said he didn't like going in crates (snarl/growl), notice they left out HOW they put him in (I expect roughly dragging from the sounds of it), but at the clinic he walks into the kennel with ease and is very wiggley when being greeted once inside. Said he was good with all strangers, but he's been a little wary of new people (granted, this one could be from the sudden change). Sigh. They don't think their rough treatment of him contributed to his issues at all, so that goes to show how accurate the owners' assessment of him is.

Anyway. Home check is tomorrow at 11. Final hurdle, then we're good to go
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