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Old 01-21-2013, 06:42 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Thank goodness the rescue is taking her back. Huge vibes for a safe and speedy transfer of custody, on that.

Thank goodness you didn't wind up worse for the wear, either, ajp. There are some real kra-kras out there to deal with.

Scary world to navigate, for both two and four leggeds.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:43 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Thank goodness the rescue is taking her back. Huge vibes for a safe and speedy transfer of custody, on that.

Thank goodness you didn't wind up worse for the wear, either, ajp. There are some real kra-kras out there to deal with.

Scary world to navigate, for both two and four leggeds.
Yep, you're right, which is why I didn't go over there alone, lol!
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:11 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Oh god you are in Columbus. If this is HMDD, my dogs came from the same rescue. I want to add something here. This rescue is fantastic. I adopted both Cleo and Thor from them 4 years ago and I am still in contact with the foster parents and try to make it at least to the annual Dobefest even so I live 2 hours away. I got numerous glowing references on them and have seen for myself the care and due diligence that is taken in placing the dogs with the right homes. However with the sheer staggering number of dogs that come through the rescue it is regrettable but not completely avoidable to have the rare bad apple in a home that is approved. And yes the dogs are microchipped by the rescue prior to being adopted out.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:27 PM   #79 (permalink)
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How about that home crop job???

When and where did that happen?

So happy she is being saved...but can't really celebrate till she is actually in the rescues hands.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:27 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I never blamed the rescue, quite honestly they are fantastic in my eyes, especially now!
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:49 PM   #81 (permalink)
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I think HMDD is pretty covered on that based on their contract. It includes this sentence "I agree to surrender ownership of the animal to the group if for any reason representatives of Hand Me Down Dobes, Inc. considers the living conditions provided unsatisfactory." They list specific conditions as well and essentially leaving it up to the rescue's discretion on if these conditions are met. If not, the rescue can and will repossess the dog and the legal fee will be paid for by the adopter. I'm not an attorney but the language in the adoption contract seems pretty clear. Of course they have to know about it first. It also prohibits you from transfering ownership to somebody else, which might explain why they were reluctant to give the dog over to a third party. They probably were simple going to lie to the rescue and say the dog just died. I remember that litter from their facebook page a couple of years ago. One of them was fostered by the former president of the rescue herself if I remember that correctly.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:13 PM   #82 (permalink)
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How about that home crop job???

When and where did that happen?

So happy she is being saved...but can't really celebrate till she is actually in the rescues hands.
I don't believe it was a "home crop". The puppy entered rescue with an atrocious crop but not really any worse than crops provided by the hack vets in our state. Nearly all of our veterinarians have attended vet school at OSU and cropping is not part of their curriculum, resulting in a slew of butchered up ear crops. I think the Adopter added that for effect, as she told the OP "she" rescued the dog from an awful home. SHE adopted the dog and at the time, acted as if she was the luckiest person in the world to be getting a 12 week old puppy.

And yes, you are correct, no celebrations until the dog has been safely surrendered.
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:17 PM   #83 (permalink)
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I'm just more surprised the more I find out.

If you don't mind following up with me once she is successfully out I would really appreciate it. I had a couple sleepless nights over this girl!
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:57 PM   #84 (permalink)
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I don't believe it was a "home crop". The puppy entered rescue with an atrocious crop but not really any worse than crops provided by the hack vets in our state. Nearly all of our veterinarians have attended vet school at OSU and cropping is not part of their curriculum, resulting in a slew of butchered up ear crops. I think the Adopter added that for effect, as she told the OP "she" rescued the dog from an awful home. SHE adopted the dog and at the time, acted as if she was the luckiest person in the world to be getting a 12 week old puppy.

And yes, you are correct, no celebrations until the dog has been safely surrendered.
Yeah, some humans lie and lie, and then lie some more.

Please let us know when the girl is safe and sound, okay?

Not any chance "SHE" will stumble across this thread, huh?

Might be best to keep mum until pupper is safe.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:21 PM   #85 (permalink)
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One word...loophole! I have to bite my tongue here, but please continue to dig! I commend you for what you are doing. The more I read, the more furious I become with these people who own this doberman.

I'm Prelaw and my focus is to become a criminal defense attorney in serious/violent crimes ultimately. With that said, with a lot of my study and outside reading material, I read a LOT of cases that would make someone's skin crawl. Hearing about animal cruelty though, probably makes me more furious than some of these cases I read. It gets my blood pumping more than anything else.

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Old 01-22-2013, 05:33 AM   #86 (permalink)
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One word...loophole! I have to bite my tongue here, but please continue to dig! I commend you for what you are doing. The more I read, the more furious I become with these people who own this doberman.

I'm Prelaw and my focus is to become a criminal defense attorney in serious/violent crimes ultimately. With that said, with a lot of my study and outside reading material, I read a LOT of cases that would make someone's skin crawl. Hearing about animal cruelty though, probably makes me more furious than some of these cases I read. It gets my blood pumping more than anything else.
No contract is watertight, loopholes exist in every single one I have ever come across. Some are huge whoppers that you could drive a truck through and some are so small if you blinked you would miss them completely.

I have yet to find a contract so well written that something, somewhere cannot be found, however, in this case I hope the adopter cannot find anything of the sort no matter how hard they look. I also hope they are blacklisted from rescue for the remainder of their lives and are closely monitored by your Animal Control people. Who might I add could learn a good few things from the RSPCA in how to operate an effective organistion who actually do protect an animals welfare. Because as it stands, from what I have heard, they sorely lack any common sense or ability to act when it comes to obvious cruelty cases and the more subtle ones that some folk perpertrate.

KM ... How long will it be before you graduate? Are you taking a law degree or a law course?
In the UK when one does a Law Degree you can place the initials LL.B (Legum Baccalaureus) after your name.

Do you have something similar in the US?

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Old 01-22-2013, 10:16 AM   #87 (permalink)
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I have a question never though about it until now. Can breeders see rescues black list. Know the list would not be perfect but if name and address are the same good bet it is the same person. I would hate to see a good breeder get suckered into this family.

So glad that the rescue jump in.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:23 AM   #88 (permalink)
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HAPPY ENDING!

I am not sure who looped in the rescue group and convinced them to take this girl back, but I want to thank whoever did it.

I received this email today.

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Hi,

Thank you for your willingness to assist with xxxxx’s placement. Ironically, xxxx Rescue called last night to check on her behavior. They are going to place her with a rep from their rescue who happens to be a trainer. We very excited for her! It was nice meeting you! Best wishes for you in your “Doberman endeavors!”
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Pieces still don't all add up to me since they previously told me they spoke with the rescue group, but at this point, the most important thing that matters has been taken care of!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!
AWESOME NEWS!! I really was worried about this doberman, especially since she is only 2 and hasn't known a wonderful home yet. I think that the, I suppose now previous owners, were looking for the easy way out and trying to intimidate with the lawyer thing to get you off their tail. I'm glad you didn't let up and helped this girl!! Thank you! We need more people like you in the world!!!!
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:41 AM   #89 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby'shuman View Post
No contract is watertight, loopholes exist in every single one I have ever come across. Some are huge whoppers that you could drive a truck through and some are so small if you blinked you would miss them completely.

I have yet to find a contract so well written that something, somewhere cannot be found, however, in this case I hope the adopter cannot find anything of the sort no matter how hard they look. I also hope they are blacklisted from rescue for the remainder of their lives and are closely monitored by your Animal Control people. Who might I add could learn a good few things from the RSPCA in how to operate an effective organistion who actually do protect an animals welfare. Because as it stands, from what I have heard, they sorely lack any common sense or ability to act when it comes to obvious cruelty cases and the more subtle ones that some folk perpertrate.

KM ... How long will it be before you graduate? Are you taking a law degree or a law course?
In the UK when one does a Law Degree you can place the initials LL.B (Legum Baccalaureus) after your name.

Do you have something similar in the US?
I agree! Contracts aren't as ironclad as people think, but I do hope in this case that it holds up! A lot of cases here in the U.S. involving animal cruelty and/or negligence are still far and few. Ahhhh I wish I could discuss it more! Soon enough I suppose haha! Animal cruelty and owners who neglect their pets are my trigger.

In the US the requirements are a bachelor's degree, LSAT, law school (usually 3 years), board exam, and then a "moral character" determination. Our equivalent to LLB is a JD first degree (Juris Doctorate). Towards the end of law school, many people can clerk and sometimes represent clients to an extent. The unauthorized practice of law is heavily regulated here though. It's pretty strict. Until someone's a licensed attorney, the exceptions are far and few. It's difficult for licensed attorneys when it comes to multijurisdictional issues too. For my courses right now, I've briefed more cases lol!

I'm currently completing my bachelor's and practicing for the LSAT. My advisors know that I plan to apply to law school, so my program is set up around that in a lot of ways. I hope to schedule the LSAT for next year. I have a 4.0 right now, so if I can continue that in law school, then i'd like to add more courses and graduate in 2 years instead of 3. The area I want to practice is Criminal Law. More specifically, I want to ultimately become a criminal defense attorney dealing with mainly serious/violent crimes. I'm a sucker for cross-examination haha, my favorite part! I also have an interest in Tort Law. What area of law do you practice?

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:07 AM   #90 (permalink)
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I have a question never though about it until now. Can breeders see rescues black list. Know the list would not be perfect but if name and address are the same good bet it is the same person. I would hate to see a good breeder get suckered into this family.

So glad that the rescue jump in.

Great point! I can't be sure on how it works with breeders and owners of this nature, but when I rescued my doberman from a local humane society, they told me that she wasn't the first doberman that the previous owners had bought from a reputable breeder and then surrendered (I assure you the reasons given for the surrender are ridiculous). I agree with you here, and hopefully they don't breeder "hop" like my girl's previous owner apparently did.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:04 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kmbeach22 View Post
I agree! Contracts aren't as ironclad as people think, but I do hope in this case that it holds up! A lot of cases here in the U.S. involving animal cruelty and/or negligence are still far and few. Ahhhh I wish I could discuss it more! Soon enough I suppose haha! Animal cruelty and owners who neglect their pets are my trigger.

In the US the requirements are a bachelor's degree, LSAT, law school (usually 3 years), board exam, and then a "moral character" determination. Our equivalent to LLB is a JD first degree (Juris Doctorate). Towards the end of law school, many people can clerk and sometimes represent clients to an extent. The unauthorized practice of law is heavily regulated here though. It's pretty strict. Until someone's a licensed attorney, the exceptions are far and few. It's difficult for licensed attorneys when it comes to multijurisdictional issues too. For my courses right now, I've briefed more cases lol!

I'm currently completing my bachelor's and practicing for the LSAT. My advisors know that I plan to apply to law school, so my program is set up around that in a lot of ways. I hope to schedule the LSAT for next year. I have a 4.0 right now, so if I can continue that in law school, then i'd like to add more courses and graduate in 2 years instead of 3. The area I want to practice is Criminal Law. More specifically, I want to ultimately become a criminal defense attorney dealing with mainly serious/violent crimes. I'm a sucker for cross-examination haha, my favorite part! I also have an interest in Tort Law. What area of law do you practice?
Like you I rather leaned towards criminal as I too fancied arguing a case, cross examining and winning the day because of my brilliance.
My goal was to eventually become a Barrister, standing before the court in my wig and gown dazzling everyone with my astute observations and astounding summary.

Yeah right.

One day during a lesson my Tutor decided to carry out an exercise to see how we felt about the kind of cases we might come across in our careers.
He gave each of us a piece of paper. It was folded and we were told not to peek at it but to simply keep it before us as the lesson progressed.

He then went on to ask us to put our hands up if we wanted to be either Prosecution or Defence on the following cases.

Rape.
Child Molestation.
Murder.
Burglary.
Driving without due care and attention.
Shop lifting.

Of course the majority of us put our hands up to indicate we wanted to work for the Prosecution. (lock the bad guys up where they belong attitude)

He then told us to open our pieces of paper. Out of a class of 40 he asked the persons holding the Prosecution pieces of paper to stand up.
One person stood.
The rest of us were Defence.

Prosecution jobs he told us were few and far between. In fact they were probably more in the region of one in one hundred.
So.
If you any of you guys do not think you could defend someone accused of the aforementioned crimes to the best of your ability, criminal wasn't for you.

So to answer your question I chose Employment and Contract Law.

Boring I know.

I realised that day I would never make it to Barrister because I wouldnt be able to defend someone who had hurt a child or raped someone or killed whilst driving their car whilst drunk etc, etc. I also realised that whilst I loved the law I didnt necessarily agree that some crimes shouldnt still hold the death penalty, so I chose not to settle for the academic achievement and call it a day.

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Old 01-23-2013, 12:15 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Toby'shuman View Post
Like you I rather leaned towards criminal as I too fancied arguing a case, cross examining and winning the day because of my brilliance.
My goal was to eventually become a Barrister, standing before the court in my wig and gown dazzling everyone with my astute observations and astounding summary.

Yeah right.

One day during a lesson my Tutor decided to carry out an exercise to see how we felt about the kind of cases we might come across in our careers.
He gave each of us a piece of paper. It was folded and we were told not to peek at it but to simply keep it before us as the lesson progressed.

He then went on to ask us to put our hands up if we wanted to be either Prosecution or Defence on the following cases.

Rape.
Child Molestation.
Murder.
Burglary.
Driving without due care and attention.
Shop lifting.

Of course the majority of us put our hands up to indicate we wanted to work for the Prosecution. (lock the bad guys up where they belong attitude)

He then told us to open our pieces of paper. Out of a class of 40 he asked the persons holding the Prosecution pieces of paper to stand up.
One person stood.
The rest of us were Defence.

Prosecution jobs he told us were few and far between. In fact they were probably more in the region of one in one hundred.
So.
If you any of you guys do not think you could defend someone accused of the aforementioned crimes to the best of your ability, criminal wasn't for you.

So to answer your question I chose Employment and Contract Law.

Boring I know.

I realised that day I would never make it to Barrister because I wouldnt be able to defend someone who had hurt a child or raped someone or killed whilst driving their car whilst drunk etc, etc. I also realised that whilst I loved the law I didnt necessarily agree that some crimes shouldnt still hold the death penalty, so I chose not to settle for the academic achievement and call it a day.

That's fair enough! Seems like a pretty good exercise by your instructor then too. I know it's difficult for many to swallow, but I could defend them. I'm not heartless, but a "win" wouldn't necessarily mean an acquittal. I was steadfast that I wanted to become a Prosecutor until I started learning more about the legal system here. One of the cases I read that had an impact is Connick v. Thompson , 578 F.3d 293. (5th Cir. 2009). Also, some of the mitigating factors that were raised on appeal for various claims in different cases I've read, such as ineffective assistance of counsel, had an impact as well.

Probably a good choice if you believe in the death penalty haha!

I bet you have heard some interesting claims with Employment Law!!
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:03 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kmbeach22 View Post
That's fair enough! Seems like a pretty good exercise by your instructor then too. I know it's difficult for many to swallow, but I could defend them. I'm not heartless, but a "win" wouldn't necessarily mean an acquittal. I was steadfast that I wanted to become a Prosecutor until I started learning more about the legal system here. One of the cases I read that had an impact is Connick v. Thompson , 578 F.3d 293. (5th Cir. 2009). Also, some of the mitigating factors that were raised on appeal for various claims in different cases I've read, such as ineffective assistance of counsel, had an impact as well.

Probably a good choice if you believe in the death penalty haha!

I bet you have heard some interesting claims with Employment Law!!
Strangely enough, I have, but as this thread probably couldnt take the excitement I had best not start recalling them. LOL!

Law I have found is both rewarding and frustrating. If you can take the excitement along with the hours of tedious research then it can be most fullfilling.

I have to admit, I love it.

And I love sticking one in the eye of the bully too!
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:31 PM   #94 (permalink)
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UPDATE----Back to the Thread Topic

The dog has been safely returned to the rescue group where she will be properly evaluated. From what I gather, the "aggression" consisted of: 1) her growling at a daughter when the daughter went over to her while sleeping and patted her on the head and 2) her lunging for a treat while the husband was luring her with a treat while getting her nails trimmed. Offenses worthy of a death sentence?! Apparently in the Lombard home they were.
This Dublin, OH family does not deserve to own animals, IMO. If anyone would like to know their name to pass along to any Ohio breeders, please PM me. They will not be going the rescue route again. The Owner has stated that she regrets rescuing a puppy in the first place and will be purchasing a puppy from a breeder next time around. Breeders beware!
FYI: She purchased her first Doberman from Bobbi Brady. Bobbi passed several years ago so I imagine they will contact the Doberman Pinscher Club of Columbus for referrals.
Thank you to the OP for starting this thread. I am not sure what made me read it, but glad I did. Synchronicity.
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:48 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoodleDobe View Post
The dog has been safely returned to the rescue group where she will be properly evaluated. From what I gather, the "aggression" consisted of: 1) her growling at a daughter when the daughter went over to her while sleeping and patted her on the head and 2) her lunging for a treat while the husband was luring her with a treat while getting her nails trimmed. Offenses worthy of a death sentence?! Apparently in the Lombard home they were.
This Dublin, OH family does not deserve to own animals, IMO. If anyone would like to know their name to pass along to any Ohio breeders, please PM me. They will not be going the rescue route again. The Owner has stated that she regrets rescuing a puppy in the first place and will be purchasing a puppy from a breeder next time around. Breeders beware!
FYI: She purchased her first Doberman from Bobbi Brady. Bobbi passed several years ago so I imagine they will contact the Doberman Pinscher Club of Columbus for referrals.
Thank you to the OP for starting this thread. I am not sure what made me read it, but glad I did. Synchronicity.
We are all glad you read this thread, too.

It is hard to believe people like that exist, but they do! Much worse ones are also out there looking for a better puppy or dog than the last bad one they had to get rid of. It's just all so disturbing.

Thank you so much for following up and posting that this girl made it back to rescue safely
I was so afraid you would never get her back. Hope she is okay and doesn't carry too much baggage from living with those idiots.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:23 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Thanks to all that is good, she is back safely.

Appreciate you letting us know, I've been worrying over her.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:15 AM   #97 (permalink)
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I'm a firm believer that some people should only be allowed to own lawn ornaments not real life dogs. I offer as proof Thor, who was an owner surrender because he was too much of a bother and is now a working service dog. Thank you Hand Me Down Dobe Rescue for matching me with both my precious fur kids Thor and Cleo and for all the work you do.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:29 AM   #98 (permalink)
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It is the same here in Canada, we are not allowed to refuse to euthanize. Of course we (I say we as I'm a tech) do everything in our power to convince the owner to choose other options but that is all we can legally do.
I disagree... I worked at a clinic in Calgary for two years with 7 vets and there were several cases where the Drs refused to euthanize a perfectly healthy animal.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:34 AM   #99 (permalink)
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I disagree... I worked at a clinic in Calgary for two years with 7 vets and there were several cases where the Drs refused to euthanize a perfectly healthy animal.
You can disagree all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't legally allowed to refuse. If they did that was their choice, and a risk they chose to take. Sure, you *could* refuse and get away with it, but if an owner knows the legality and decides to go above the vet..then they risk a lot of trouble. I'm not saying some vets don't or won't refuse, but they do risk losing their licence if they do. I've been a CVT for a long time, and I've seen owners file complaints over this. So yes, a vet CAN choose to refuse, but they can get in a lot of trouble if they do. That's what we're saying.

I never said no vet will ever refuse, I said it's a legality and they aren't allowed. It doesn't mean some won't risk it, and refuse anyway. Many won't however, especially if, like my boss of many years, they've had a complaint filed because they did try to refuse.

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Old 01-24-2013, 08:28 AM   #100 (permalink)
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You can disagree all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't legally allowed to refuse. If they did that was their choice, and a risk they chose to take. Sure, you *could* refuse and get away with it, but if an owner knows the legality and decides to go above the vet..then they risk a lot of trouble. I'm not saying some vets don't or won't refuse, but they do risk losing their licence if they do. I've been a CVT for a long time, and I've seen owners file complaints over this. So yes, a vet CAN choose to refuse, but they can get in a lot of trouble if they do. That's what we're saying.

I never said no vet will ever refuse, I said it's a legality and they aren't allowed. It doesn't mean some won't risk it, and refuse anyway. Many won't however, especially if, like my boss of many years, they've had a complaint filed because they did try to refuse.
What ever happened to freedom of choice?
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