Sharly

So my parents just got stationed at Ramstein and my mother told me that if we were to get orders there, that we wouldn't be allowed to bring Toorc because they banned the doberman pinscher. I thought maybe she meant the base banned them which wouldn't be news to me, but she said the country as a whole... I'm a little confused (and maybe behind the times) but how could the country they originated in, just ban them?

Can someone fill me in on the facts please?

Thanks

Toby'shuman

This is news to me too. I'll dig around and see what I can find out. I have German friends who might be able to shed light on whether or not it is the case.

Sharly

Thanks! I really hope she's just mistaken... I can't imagine the whole country banning their own breed.

WorkingDobie

The German laws

Laws differ in Germany's 16 states, but in Hesse, Lower Saxony, and North Rhine - Westphalia, they contain some version of the following provisions:

Category I dogs- dangerous breeds that cannot be imported, bred, or sold - includes the American Staffordshire Terrier, Pit Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, Neapolitan Mastiff, Spanish Mastiff, Dogue de Bordeaux, Dogo Argentino, Fila Brasiliero, Roman Fighting Dog , Chinese Fighting Dog, Bandog, and Tosa Inu. These dogs must be registered and sterilized.

Category II dogs - potentially dangerous dogs that can be owned, imported, bred, and sold if they pass a temperament test and are free of aggressive actions for three years - include Akbash, Briard, Beauceron, Bullmastiff, Doberman, Komondor, Kuvasz, Maremma, Pyrenean Mountain Dog (our Great Pyrenees), Rhodesian Ridgeback, Rottweiler, Tibetan Mastiff, and more than 15 other breeds that are virtually unknown in the US.

Category III dogs - Those dogs that weigh more than 20 kilos (44 pounds) or are taller than 40 centimeters (15.75 inches). These dogs must be on a leash in developed areas and will be moved to Category II if they show aggression.

According to some stories, owners of banned breeds are required to place a red banner on their doors to identify their premises as harboring one of these breeds; dogs are being abandoned in the streets and killed by the dozens in animal shelters; and licenses to keep banned breeds cost $600-1000 in US dollars.

The temperament test given to the dogs lasts about three hours According to an eye-witness report posted on the Internet. [2] It includes an assessment of the dog's attitude towards other dogs and people and to stimuli that startle (an umbrella opening, a mock attack), and about an hour of instruction to dog owners.

Sharly

$600-$1000 to keep a family member how sad. And I'm sorry, But if you were to shake an umbrella at me I probably would snap too...

LindaH

Oh geez, why do I feel like this has PETA's fingerprints all over it!!!

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missabaldwin

Now, I could be wrong but it sounds like they are moving into on post housing? I'm pretty sure the doberman isn't an allowed breed in on post housing. We just had a couple pcs up here and had to give up their doberman because they were moving onto post.

ataro

WTF. The Dobermann is NOT banned in Germany. I live here, and I had zero problems importing Ashra... and have met several breeders of Dobermanns here at shows.

In the state of Brandenburg it is listed as a potentially dangerous breed, which means that you have to have it on a leash with a muzzle at all times in public (in Brandenburg only), but that's all. The Dobermann does NOT need to be temperament tested to be kept, sold, or imported... only if you are intending to breed it, which in that case the temperament test would be the ZTP which is completely unrelated to dangerous dog legislation.

The information that was posted above with all those breeds is not accurate... there aren't any obscure dangerous breeds or an extremely long list like that in any one state. If anyone is interested in the laws of a specific state feel free to PM me and I will find the original information in German and translate it for you.

I should add that for EVERY dog, owners must pay a tax each year (which can equate to $600-1000 per year). For some cities and breeds it is higher, but some do not differentiate . In Berlin it is about $160 for the first dog, and $240 for the second and subsequent dogs.

missabaldwin

I obviously didn't read your post as well as I should have. (It's late...) But I have a feeling she is mistaken and that its post that is the issue.

Adobe4two

Its very possible. I mean, think about it, BSL against one of their own breeds is very common in the USA: The American Pit Bull Terrier & American Staffordshire Terrier.

Unfortunately... Legislators are often morons.

Toby'shuman

My friend in Germany says it is news to him, but he recommends if you are at all worried to contact the local Townhall that your home is to be based in and ask them. Don't worry there is always someone who can speak English in such a place he says.

As for on base housing, now that is a matter I cannot advise upon. However, if you or your partner are not in the actual forces but are simply a spouse and the base doesnt allow your dog to go with you. Then do what I did when the RAF put restrictions on my being with my husband when he went to Hong Kong.

Don't go. Stay where you don't have such a problem.

By the way Zeblar is in Germany and will no doubt be able to advise you better with regards the attitudes towards Dobes in Germany at this moment in time. (She is the wife of a serving member of the British Armed Forces).

Anton-Caesar

A Staff is a "cat 1 dangerous dog breed" in Germany? You have got to be joking?!

ataro

It is ridiculous that you could even think that the Dobermann is banned in Germany, when the president of the German Dobermann club organizes all the IDC events in Europe...

Proof that Dobermanns are not banned in Germany (and no, myself and another member are not hiding our dogs from the public):
Dobermann - Sport und Zucht -

As for military housing, I haven't a clue but there are no such laws that restrict Dobermanns in regular housing. Where on earth did your parents get their information from?

River

It's probably on-base housing that has the bans, so I looked up Ramstein's policy. Dobes, pit bulls, rottweilers, and a few other breeds are on their banned list, so if you're living on base, Dobermans are not allowed. The only exceptions are military working dogs or service dogs.

Here's Ramstein Air Base's pet FAQ.

Ramstein also had a link from the above fact sheet that said:

"German Rules On Dangerous Dogs

In April 2001, German law was passed on import of dangerous dogs for protection of the citizens. The local offices of public order (OPO) at city and county level are appointed to enforce the dangerous dog regulation.

Dangerous dogs are defined as animals either
- known to be vicious
- having indicated inclinations to attack game or livestock
- having attacked persons
- having shown unusually aggressiveness

Automatically included are Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bullterriers and other dogs descendant from one of these dogs.

These races and any dogs deriving from these races cannot be imported to Germany. Breeding, reproduction, and trade of dangerous dogs are prohibited. The responsible authority may order the dog to be neutered. Dogs may not be trained or bred to become dangerous dogs."

lolonurse

I think if you want more info, PM Andrea, as she is German (she lives in US, but most of her family is still in Germany), and she just imported her newest puppy, Devil, from Germany. She is probably a good resource for accurate info on the status of the Dobe in Germany. The info originally posted sounds a bit odd to me - I'm sure it's not the entire (or totally accurate) information. At least I hope not!

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Sharly

I didn't think they were banned, I was asking because my parents just moved there and said that if we ever got orders to Germany we wouldn't be able to take Toorc with us. Just looking for the facts on it.

Both my husband and I are active duty Air Force and I know allllll about the stupid restrictions bases have on breeds. That's why I searched relentlessly for a dobe friendly house before I ever arrived on oahu. I did however, discover that Navy still accepts Dobermans and so we have signed up to get a house with them (hallelujah!)

It's just one of those things that I will always have to worry about. Military or not, BSLs will always threaten whether I can have Toorc or not. Being military just makes it worse. But since we are married, we do get the option to live off base so there is always that possibility that we find the kind hearted landlord to accommodate us and puppy. It sucks because Europe was next on our dream sheet. So I was worried if it was true that we wouldn't be able to go, because I'm not leaving anywhere without Toorc.

ataro

If you look into regular housing in Germany, you will not have a problem with bringing a Dobe (importing is likewise hassle free). They are sometimes a bit strict with the number of pets you can have, and some landlords don't allow any pets at all, but there is nothing governing specific breeds. Sometimes size can matter, but I can say I have had no problem finding a place to live because of my dog, even in a big city (Berlin).

I should also add that sadly, most Germans don't even know what a Dobermann looks like. So, it's not like you'll get any crap about the breed while walking on the street.

Sharly

Lol sad. I have a few years until my time on oahu is up so I'm not too concerned. But when the time comes, this dobershark is flying with us wherever we move to

lolonurse

please consider putting him through both puppy/socialization classes, and the full complement of obedience classes - and if possible, get him CGC certified. The good citizen cert goes a long way towards proving the manners, biddability, friendliness, temperament of a dog, and has helped people get into places others could not! (and a therapy dog cert goes even further!)

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Sharly

I'm already headed in that direction with him


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Zeblar

I've never had any issues with owning my Doberman here. Like ataro said so many German's don't even recognise the breed these days so nothing gets mentioned.

I don't put a muzzle on Odin but he is always on a lead, just not worth the hassle of letting him off. I take him onto camp if I want to let him have a run around without any other dogs being around him. I know another couple who also have a Doberman over here and apart from the usual snide remarks about Doberman's being manic killers that will maul you as soon as they look at you they don't have any problems with her either.

But this paying a tax thing is new to me... Live out if its an option German housing is beautiful not to mention they are normally massive! I hope you find a solution that works best for you and Toorc!

ETA: the snide remarks my friends receive sometimes are from Brits not Germans.

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ZeldaRules

What is a Pit Bull Terrier? I've never heard of that breed.

Toby'shuman

At first I thought you were taking the Pee there Zelda, then I thought, hey, maybe the US don't call them this, so for your edification.

It's a Pit Bull.

No different from the Pit Bulls you have in the US or anywhere else, but described as a PBT in some circles and in others it isn't. Though why that is, I am not sure.

My friend owns a PBT girlie, Toby loves her to pieces as he can be a Dobe around her. She is one tough girl.

Dobermin

My parents are German immigrants, originally from Mainz. When I moved out and got my first dobe, they thought I was nuts and my father refused to visit. And when relatives from Germany were coming to Canada to visit, my father was sure to inform them that if they were to visit my place, I had dobermans. But leave it do a dobe to do his whole repertoire of tricks for a banana to melt the heart of an 80 year old German auntie set in her ways!
That being said, my dad and his brothers and sisters grew up in Germany when dobes were guard dogs, not pets.
The Great Pyr on the list kind of shocks me. I've grown up around them and have never seen anything even close to aggressive.

ZeldaRules

I was being sarcastic because the correct breed name is American Pit Bull Terrier. If someone wanted to find a loophole and fight the system would they be able to show proof of their America Pit Bull Terrier on paper and be legal since it's not "Pit Bull Terrier" in any recognized breed club? We get nitty gritty with it in the US because BSL supporters, crooked lawyers, and lawmakers like to think that "pit bull" is an actual breed of dog.