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Old 12-12-2012, 09:26 AM   #151 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okie-dobie View Post
Thanks, yes I do think she has a beautiful head too! I say that her head should be on a male because I personally don't think it's very feminine. I guess your right, you look at heads like this all the time on the females over there. So it would not be considered doggy looking.

I think there is some heads on the N.A. dogs that are outstanding and gorgeous! But sometimes I need to glance underneath the dog to check their sex, I find some of the male heads in N.A. pretty feminine looking. Of course this is my opinion when I have been out at the shows lately.

Personally I think Fedor's head looks very correct. Although I hate when a lot of euro dogs open their mouths to pant..lol! I find it ruins the appearance of his head, he is all gums and lips! It appears he has good under jaw but so much extra skin, not very tight lips AT ALL. So I think that's why some people think euro dogs can have a Great Dane type head.

It's all what you get use to looking at in your own country, although sometimes you would think we have two different breeds..lol!
Trust me..Jasmine has a beauitiful feminine head..afterall she is from established european lines is she not?

Now and again we do come across females that look so musculine, one has to look underneeth to tell what sex they are...but you would notice that right away..
The judges do not tolerate feminine looking males or the opposite, masculine looking females..male should look like a male and a female like a female.

As to Fedors head...yes he had a beautiful male head with very loose lips (not to my liking either) but that did not stop him from being the most popular stud of the last decade.
We like it or not Fedor has infuenced the breed and left his genetic mark for the future generations to come....that, we must respect.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:54 AM   #152 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Okie-dobie View Post
This is Jasmine, I think she has a very correct head however it should be on a male..lol! This picture she is about 2.5 years old.

I have come to really like Cash's head, it has gotten nicer as he has got older. He could do with more fill under his eyes and more under jaw but it's not bad. He is almost four in this picture taken the other day.
I do like both their heads and Jasmine does look feminine to me.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:10 AM   #153 (permalink)
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I do like both their heads and Jasmine does look feminine to me.
Thank you.
What do I know then. Maybe it's because she is close to 28" and over 84 lbs so reminds me of a male.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:21 AM   #154 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
Ine other area that is not mentioned often in this country, but is mentioned in the standard is "fill under the eyes". If you notice the boney structure around his eyes in the head on shot, you will notice that it is wider than the head directly below. This is a good illustration of not having enough fill under the eyes.
Thanks for your input! Your description of fill with the visual example helps quite a bit and I wonder if this is also a part of why he doesn't have quite as intense an expression.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BenVera View Post
Thanks for this - it's been interesting poking around and reading about how the standards have changed. I was about to post the link for the head standard evolution here but I see that Dictator posted the DPCA version. I've been looking at many old Dobe photos this morning!
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:34 AM   #155 (permalink)
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I've chimed in a few times since starting this thread because I'd really like some discussion on this.

The standard had to be based on realistic dogs at one time, right? So why is there any room for personal bias?

I mean, the standard even breaks down most features by dimensions. How can that be interpreted as anything other than exactly what it is?

I also find it fascinating that the champion NA dogs of yesteryear, such as Illena and the seven sires, all came from champion euro lines, suggesting that along the way, NA breeders began to stray from what was considered desirable features among both NA and euro lines. I imagine it is because they found that wiggle room for interpretation and personal bias. Do you agree?

As I stated earlier, I find it interesting that the modern champions (both NA and euro) have such a different look than their predecessors. How many times has the standard been changed to accommodate, or require, these differences? And why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
There is the standard, and then there is reality - our standard is very well written, but there is a smidge of room for interpretation and personal bias.
DPCA Standard:

Long and dry, resembling a blunt wedge in both frontal and profile views. When seen from the front, the head widens gradually toward the base of the ears in a practically unbroken line. Eyes almond shaped, moderately deep set, with vigorous, energetic expression. Iris, of uniform color, ranging from medium to darkest brown in black dogs; in reds, blues, and fawns the color of the iris blends with that of the markings, the darkest shade being preferable in every case. Ears normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull.


Top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle, with muzzle line extending parallel to top line of skull. Cheeks flat and muscular. Nose solid black on black dogs, dark brown on red ones, dark gray on blue ones, dark tan on fawns. Lips lying close to jaws. Jaws full and powerful, well filled under the eyes.


Teeth strongly developed and white. Lower incisors upright and touching inside of upper incisors true scissors bite. 42 correctly placed teeth, 22 in the lower, 20 in the upper jaw. Distemper teeth shall not be penalized. Disqualifying Faults: Overshot more than 3/16 of an inch. Undershot more than 1/8 of an inch. Four or more missing teeth.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:42 AM   #156 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenVera View Post
I've chimed in a few times since starting this thread because I'd really like some discussion on this.

The standard had to be based on realistic dogs at one time, right? So why is there any room for personal bias?

I mean, the standard even breaks down most features by dimensions. How can that be interpreted as anything other than exactly what it is?

I also find it fascinating that the champion NA dogs of yesteryear, such as Illena and the seven sires, all came from champion euro lines, suggesting that along the way, NA breeders began to stray from what was considered desirable features among both NA and euro lines. I imagine it is because they found that wiggle room for interpretation and personal bias. Do you agree?

As I stated earlier, I find it interesting that the modern champions (both NA and euro) have such a different look than their predecessors. How many times has the standard been changed to accommodate, or require, these differences? And why?


DPCA Standard:

Long and dry, resembling a blunt wedge in both frontal and profile views. When seen from the front, the head widens gradually toward the base of the ears in a practically unbroken line. Eyes almond shaped, moderately deep set, with vigorous, energetic expression. Iris, of uniform color, ranging from medium to darkest brown in black dogs; in reds, blues, and fawns the color of the iris blends with that of the markings, the darkest shade being preferable in every case. Ears normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull.


Top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle, with muzzle line extending parallel to top line of skull. Cheeks flat and muscular. Nose solid black on black dogs, dark brown on red ones, dark gray on blue ones, dark tan on fawns. Lips lying close to jaws. Jaws full and powerful, well filled under the eyes.


Teeth strongly developed and white. Lower incisors upright and touching inside of upper incisors true scissors bite. 42 correctly placed teeth, 22 in the lower, 20 in the upper jaw. Distemper teeth shall not be penalized. Disqualifying Faults: Overshot more than 3/16 of an inch. Undershot more than 1/8 of an inch. Four or more missing teeth.
That my friend is a million dollar question in any breed....

Personally I fell in love with the look of the original dobes from the 50's-70's in NA and Europe, I look back to great great great and beyond in Mabels pedigree and I wish that was still around not just look wise but overall.
IMO neither america nor most of europe is technically doing it right as far as creating the ideal doberman because they look nothing like it, if we're going off the look of the orignial foundation of the breed.

Now i'm not trying to be insulting at all, i'd happily buy a modern dobe but for realities sake if we look at what was originally created as far as the breed, either side (euro, na) can say they've "improved" the breed exponentialy far from it's traditional and initial look. This may be good this may be bad, it's just my observation and again it's not just this breed it's almost all breeds really, you could ask the same about the rear angulation on shepherds, the nonexistent noses on pugs, overly large bulldogs. I'm not saying it's happened in our breed but if you look around a dog show (not just in the us) a lot of "improvements" from the original dog aren't necessarily improvements, that doesn't mean some aren't though...it just isn't the norm. for what I see.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:43 AM   #157 (permalink)
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Asmit. . I thought you would know which dog I was describing. heehee

ok...........who is THIS dog?

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Old 12-12-2012, 10:44 AM   #158 (permalink)
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It looks like from many of the responses that people seem to assume that what they are used to looking at must be correct, even when it is not. I also do not see why Iceman is continually being accused of being rude when people have referred to the dogs he likes as Great Dane or Rottweiller looking and nobody thought that was rude? It looks to me as though the problem is that you are looking at the breed from the opposite ends of the spectrum. Yes, one one end, some of the European Dobermanns can be to heavy and coarse headed, but then many of the North American males are also very bitchy looking. The correct view is to look for balance. A male should definitely have a stong masculine head, but should never be coarse or clunky. The difference in the look of the American and European Doberman(n)s more the current style and "interpretation" than the written standard.

I do not mind "matronly" headed or bodied females at all, especially for breeding bitches. In the US, there are certainly plenty of fine boned and feminine males available to breed them with to temper their matronly look. It leaves with more options than when you start with a fine and ultra-elegant female.

Anyone that thinks that Fedor had a head like a Great Dane has not looked at a proper Great Dane head. The Doberman head is a blunt wedge (does give some room for variation), but a Great Dane is described as being two offset cubic rectangles.

We need to start striving for excellence and not just defending what we are used to seeing on our side of the pond. The same goes with the style of showing. Neither one is better than the other and both have their strengths and weaknesses. However, if you are knowedleagle of Doberman(n)s you can see quality or shortcomings no matter the style of presentation.

Someone asked about the European procedure for examination. No they do not get nearly as "Handsy" with the dogs as we do here in the US, bu actually I think most of the "pat down" done in the US show ring is more to show off for the crowd or it is "what is expected". Because of the short coat, you can usually see everything that you need to without being terribly physical with the dosgs. On the other hand, European judges typically inspect teeth and testicles with the dog sitting and usually do a more thotough and detailed examination of the mouth than the average North American judge.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:36 AM   #159 (permalink)
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I'm not a breeder, nor do I intend to become a breeder, but even a novice can notice subtle to extreme differences in dobe heads. This statement is EXACTLY why I started this thread. Thank you Kansadobe!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
It looks like from many of the responses that people seem to assume that what they are used to looking at must be correct, even when it is not. I also do not see why Iceman is continually being accused of being rude when people have referred to the dogs he likes as Great Dane or Rottweiller looking and nobody thought that was rude? It looks to me as though the problem is that you are looking at the breed from the opposite ends of the spectrum. Yes, one one end, some of the European Dobermanns can be to heavy and coarse headed, but then many of the North American males are also very bitchy looking. The correct view is to look for balance. A male should definitely have a stong masculine head, but should never be coarse or clunky. The difference in the look of the American and European Doberman(n)s more the current style and "interpretation" than the written standard.

I do not mind "matronly" headed or bodied females at all, especially for breeding bitches. In the US, there are certainly plenty of fine boned and feminine males available to breed them with to temper their matronly look. It leaves with more options than when you start with a fine and ultra-elegant female.

Anyone that thinks that Fedor had a head like a Great Dane has not looked at a proper Great Dane head. The Doberman head is a blunt wedge (does give some room for variation), but a Great Dane is described as being two offset cubic rectangles.

We need to start striving for excellence and not just defending what we are used to seeing on our side of the pond. The same goes with the style of showing. Neither one is better than the other and both have their strengths and weaknesses. However, if you are knowedleagle of Doberman(n)s you can see quality or shortcomings no matter the style of presentation.

Someone asked about the European procedure for examination. No they do not get nearly as "Handsy" with the dogs as we do here in the US, bu actually I think most of the "pat down" done in the US show ring is more to show off for the crowd or it is "what is expected". Because of the short coat, you can usually see everything that you need to without being terribly physical with the dosgs. On the other hand, European judges typically inspect teeth and testicles with the dog sitting and usually do a more thotough and detailed examination of the mouth than the average North American judge.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:43 AM   #160 (permalink)
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Thank you, Dictator, for posting these links! Very useful in our discussion. It appears as though the DPCA standard accepted by the AKC has been changed at least 10 times since the history of the breed in the show ring. Below are quotes pulled directly from the article:

"The 1929 edition of William Sidney Schmidt's The Doberman Pinscher published in the U.S. The DPCA did not incorporate this standard in America, but relied on the 1920 modified German standard until it wrote its own standard in 1935."

"Adopted by the DPCA and approved by the AKC in August 1935. The first standard written by the DPCA."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictator View Post
Am I reading this correctly; that cropped ears became optional, according to the DPCA and AKC standard, in 1935, yet cropped ears became the standard in AKC shows from 1969-present? Any particular reason for this? If the Doberman(n) was intended to be a cropped/docked breed by his originator, then wouldn't cropping have remained the standard permanently? This goes for euro showlines as well.

"1935 standard:
Ears: Cropped to a point and carried erect. If uncropped, ears should be set high, not too far apart and of medium size, drooping forward close to cheek. The top line of folded ear being slightly above the level of the skull.

1942 standard:
Ears: Well trimmed and carried erect. In all states where ear trimming is prohibited or where dogs with cropped ears cannot be shown, the above requirements are waived.

1948:
Ears: Well trimmed and carried erect. (In all states where ear trimming is prohibited, or where dogs with cropped ears cannot be shown, the foregoing requirements are waived.) The upper attachment of the ear when held erect, should be level with the top of the skull.

1969 standard:
Ears: Normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when carried erect, is on the level with the top of the skull."
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:55 AM   #161 (permalink)
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There is no perfect head and yes there is room in our standard for some personal preference - "blunt wedge, medium stop, etc.." is not an exact science.

For those who have never bred a litter or two, you make concessions and some of those concessions have to do with your personal preference. There is wiggle room in every standard including ours as no two people will ever agree on exactly what something means.

I see many different head types in the ring - some I like and some I don't - some are more correct than others. You can get different head types in the same litter. To me a Doberman is a sleek animal and should look poured into its skin - not to say that all mine have that - but I prefer it. So a head that is not in any way sleek and/or tight skinned is faulty. A "wedge" is not a "block" . And, while a male should look like a male, a big blocky flewy head is just as faulty as a bitchy head IMHO..... even if you or I personally like it.

I also know that plenty of the euro pictures I see of heavily panting dogs were not taken in the ring - so it tells me that that is how they like to see a dog presented. I see these types of pictures of both Euro Dobes in Europe and in North America. To me it distorts the head and I don't know if it is a blunt wedge or not or if they have underjaw or not.... or if it is just all flews. so comparing those pictures to pictures of dogs presented with their mouths closed is NOT presenting apples to apples. The same dog panting may look totally different than the same dog with its mouth closed.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:44 PM   #162 (permalink)
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This makes sense.

I realize that, in order to develop a perfect head, other desirable features may be lost through those generations, and the same can be said for breeding for those features and consequently losing the structural integrity of a good head. Of course the shape is going to evolve with the rest of the dog over time!

So I suppose there's really no way for everyone involved in the breed to unanimously name one dog (then and now) who resembles the closest characteristics of the breed standard. Although I've enjoyed seeing the pictures of those dogs who are preferred by our forum members.

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Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
There is no perfect head and yes there is room in our standard for some personal preference - "blunt wedge, medium stop, etc.." is not an exact science.

For those who have never bred a litter or two, you make concessions and some of those concessions have to do with your personal preference. There is wiggle room in every standard including ours as no two people will ever agree on exactly what something means.

I see many different head types in the ring - some I like and some I don't - some are more correct than others. You can get different head types in the same litter. To me a Doberman is a sleek animal and should look poured into its skin - not to say that all mine have that - but I prefer it. So a head that is not in any way sleek and/or tight skinned is faulty. A "wedge" is not a "block" . And, while a male should look like a male, a big blocky flewy head is just as faulty as a bitchy head IMHO..... even if you or I personally like it.

I also know that plenty of the euro pictures I see of heavily panting dogs were not taken in the ring - so it tells me that that is how they like to see a dog presented. I see these types of pictures of both Euro Dobes in Europe and in North America. To me it distorts the head and I don't know if it is a blunt wedge or not or if they have underjaw or not.... or if it is just all flews. so comparing those pictures to pictures of dogs presented with their mouths closed is NOT presenting apples to apples. The same dog panting may look totally different than the same dog with its mouth closed.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:28 PM   #163 (permalink)
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Dictator v Glenhugel IMO is the epitome of a Male Doberman Head.

His head, ears and neck all blend together.

Heads of the Dobes today reflect the Standard of Today and the Breeders vision of a Doberman(n) whether NA or European. Ears and neck affect the head as well at the rest of the body structure which JMO accounts for the difference in heads. A NA Show Dobes head would not look good on a Euro Show Dobe nor would a Euro Show Head look good on a NA Show Dobe.

Whether you agree with the NA or Euro Breeders is a matter of personal preference.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:33 AM   #164 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
I'm a huge fan of Jet's head.

But, since I'm incredibly biased, my Siri also has what I consider to be a beautiful head.

Shown below and in my avatar photo
Siri groupie here!!!! ZOMG!!!

I love Tequila Mali's head, despite the hangy back bottom lip. I admit when I first saw her photo I assumed she was male.

One thing I wish is that there was less disparity between the sexes heads...so many lippy male heads out there I don't know how they throw the beautiful dry female heads that they do.
I do not care for Agador's head in photos but my dog does he have some beautiful dry headed girls out there.

Hangy lips, blocky heads, tons of stop, beady eyes drive me bat**** crazy and there is a lot of that around. I want them looking like they're going Mach 10 in a jet= DRY. I mean, function-wise how are they supposed to successfully latch onto something with all the lips some of them have? I imagine torn lips. ugh

Seems back in the "old" days there was less daylight between the sexes heads.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:07 PM   #165 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hank View Post
I love Jets head. But I don't know enough to say its near the best

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Yes - but I am going to extend that to say I just love the look of all of Foxfire's dogs. Jaina has the prettiest doberhead out of any dog I've ever owned, and I must admit that I love seeing images of other Foxfire get on the forum (Siri, Guilty, to name a few). Overall, I just like the light, clean build in her line - and as I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm completely envious of her Cupid after seeing him in person.

What I've noticed a lot of out here recently in BYB dogs is not having a straight nose - the nose will curve downward, giving the dog... well, I can't really describe it well. J has a dobe that attends her daycare who's 6 months old that has a noticably short, curved nose and I just really want to grab the owner and educate them about what a Dobe should look like, in addition to why purchasing from a BYB is a bad idea.

IMO, the wedge-shaped, long-nosed head that a well-bred Dobe displays (such as Cupid and Siri, and of course my Jaina) is as trademark (to me) of a good Dobe as the dished profile is of a well-bred Arabian horse.

edit: just realized the best worst way to describe the poor BYB dog's nose: it's curved like the beak of a parrot, but ends with the nose of a mutt.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:55 PM   #166 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by zorianak View Post
Yes - but I am going to extend that to say I just love the look of all of Foxfire's dogs. Jaina has the prettiest doberhead out of any dog I've ever owned, and I must admit that I love seeing images of other Foxfire get on the forum (Siri, Guilty, to name a few). Overall, I just like the light, clean build in her line - and as I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm completely envious of her Cupid after seeing him in person.

What I've noticed a lot of out here recently in BYB dogs is not having a straight nose - the nose will curve downward, giving the dog... well, I can't really describe it well.
J has a dobe that attends her daycare who's 6 months old that has a noticably short, curved nose and I just really want to grab the owner and educate them about what a Dobe should look like, in addition to why purchasing from a BYB is a bad idea.

IMO, the wedge-shaped, long-nosed head that a well-bred Dobe displays (such as Cupid and Siri, and of course my Jaina) is as trademark (to me) of a good Dobe as the dished profile is of a well-bred Arabian horse.

edit: just realized the best worst way to describe the poor BYB dog's nose: it's curved like the beak of a parrot, but ends with the nose of a mutt.
Is this kinda what you are trying to describe?
Jones doesn't have a crazy curve, I always think it looks like he broke his nose or ran into something...

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Old 12-13-2012, 09:37 PM   #167 (permalink)
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Borong the Warlock has always been the perfect doberman to me. Probably since I grew up with him depicted as the ideal dog in the AKC book of standards. That I poured over as a kid. I need to look through my old magazines and see if I can find a head shot though. I can't seem to find on with a quick google search

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Old 12-13-2012, 10:17 PM   #168 (permalink)
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Borong the Warlock has always been the perfect doberman to me. Probably since I grew up with him depicted as the ideal dog in the AKC book of standards. That I poured over as a kid. I need to look through my old magazines and see if I can find a head shot though. I can't seem to find on with a quick google search

Borong the Warlock
I had fun looking back through that pedigree

I actually really like these dog's look. Although people say the breed has improved so much and these dogs have so many faults etc etc, I love the older doberman.









Such powerful intense looking dogs.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:28 PM   #169 (permalink)
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Is this kinda what you are trying to describe?
Jones doesn't have a crazy curve, I always think it looks like he broke his nose or ran into something...

What you are illustrating is called a "Roman Nose".
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:47 PM   #170 (permalink)
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:48 PM   #171 (permalink)
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I had fun looking back through that pedigree

I actually really like these dog's look. Although people say the breed has improved so much and these dogs have so many faults etc etc, I love the older doberman.









Such powerful intense looking dogs.
Same here, these are the dobermans I fell in love with!
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:50 PM   #172 (permalink)
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Quote:
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What you are illustrating is called a "Roman Nose".
is that also what Zorianak is trying to explain?
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:57 PM   #173 (permalink)
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is that also what Zorianak is trying to explain?
Head illustrations from DPCA.org
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:07 PM   #174 (permalink)
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I know what a Roman nose is thanks.... I put the pictures of Jones up to see if that is what Zorianak was trying to describe.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:25 AM   #175 (permalink)
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is that also what Zorianak is trying to explain?
I don't know for sure, but what Zorianak is describing sounds more to me like a "down face". It seems to be quite common these days. The planes of the muzzle are not parallel with the top of the skull.
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