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post #126 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
Thanks! I'm flattered but if you read the standard, the muzzle and the backskull should be the same, and Harvard has more backskull than muzzle. I don't love him any less for it, but as a breeder recognize that it isn't totally correct. His 1/2 brother Comet actually has IMHO the better head.... I just love Harvard's for oozing "boy"

There is the standard, and then there is reality - our standard is very well written, but there is a smidge of room for interpretation and personal bias.
Good to know, now that you phrase it that way I can see how he's just a small fraction uneven when comparing those two areas.

As to the rest, breeders like you are a treasure, (not just in this breed) but I see some breeders today breeding what they like and that's all regardless of how some is completely against standard. As for oozing boy that's one of my biggest loves about him is all of him just says boy.


I'd also like to add something I meant to add pages ago, I think heads are even more subjective in photos just like other parts and whole shots of dogs, I've seen some dogs I would think ugly in photos in person and completely changed my mind as they look better in person. Dakota for instance I think looks way different in person than photos (not that he looks bad in photos) but realistically seeing a dog is always the best route to accurately judge imo

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post #127 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 08:17 PM
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I don't know if I've said this before... but I LOVE Harvard.
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post #128 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 08:33 PM
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I LOVE Louise's head too! What a stunner!


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post #129 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 08:39 PM
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No Maverick? But he's my favorite of your bunch, still! I thought he had a really nice head but what do I know about conformation?

I'm half tempted to take some pics of Skoll for you folks to rate him, once he's here. I've had a couple people, even show people, mention to me that he looks show bred. I can't show him but you folks know the standard better than I do and I'd like to know how he adds up!


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post #130 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 08:39 PM
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I might have posted this picture in this thread already, can't remember..lol!
This is Jasmine, I think she has a very correct head however it should be on a male..lol! This picture she is about 2.5 years old.


I have come to really like Cash's head, it has gotten nicer as he has got older. He could do with more fill under his eyes and more under jaw but it's not bad. He is almost four in this picture taken the other day.


And last but not least we have Covea..lol! She has a very poor head, almost no stop, very narrow muzzle and very little under jaw. Although she has nice shaped eyes and they are dark...and she is cute. Oh and she can bite like an alligator and has a ton of drive so that makes up for her head..lol!! She is identical to her mother Gamy. She is a year old in these pictures..


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post #131 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkevs View Post
Asmit..............who is the dobe with the punishing looking jaws................bet that dog bites deep and hard.
Haha which one? FTR they both were incredible working dogs. What they looked like didn't matter, but their bodies supported them for long healthy lives and their head functioned to produce nice strong grips. <Lol, my opinion of conformation.

A lot of my 'likes' in the doberman today have been molded by temperament, working ability, and other non-conformation related ideas. My mind translates certain characteristics with being common in working-line dobes and I think that makes me more attracted to them.

I used to be absolutely in love with the some of the way overdone Euro show line heads. (I'm not saying they all are, but I used to love the ones that were)
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post #132 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmit View Post
Haha which one? FTR they both were incredible working dogs. What they looked like didn't matter, but their bodies supported them for long healthy lives and their head functioned to produce nice strong grips. <Lol, my opinion of conformation.

A lot of my 'likes' in the doberman today have been molded by temperament, working ability, and other non-conformation related ideas. My mind translates certain characteristics with being common in working-line dobes and I think that makes me more attracted to them.

I used to be absolutely in love with the some of the way overdone Euro show line heads. (I'm not saying they all are, but I used to love the ones that were)
Of course me to, but this thread is about best heads, I guess I should not have posted Covea. I wanted to show the extremes.

I have never liked the major block heads on some of the euro show lines. And while I am attracted to the working line dogs because I like how many of them work they certainly are not super attractive in conformation. I like that many of them are smaller and more agile, but many are not well put together. And I agree when I spot a working line Doberman I get a little more excited to watch them work. BUT there is nothing better than seeing a good looking, correct, well put together Dobermann either show or working do a very nice strong routine...I have seen both.

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post #133 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okie-dobie View Post
Of course me to, but this thread is about best heads, I guess I should not have posted Covea. I wanted to show the extremes.

I have never liked the major block heads on some of the euro show lines. And while I am attracted to the working line dogs because I like how many of them work they certainly are not super attractive in conformation. I like that many of them are smaller and more agile, but many are not well put together. And I agree when I spot a working line Doberman I get a little more excited to watch them work. BUT there is nothing better than seeing a good looking, correct, well put together Dobermann either show or working do a very nice strong routine...I have seen both.
Yes exactly! It's ok I posted not 'perfect' heads as well. And with short ears too I also think the thread became very educational by pointing out faults in different heads and what keeps a dog from being "perfect".

I find my self thinking sometimes, wow I really like how that dog looks! But in reality, I just like their overall structure and working ability/temperament. Objectively judging the conformation makes me go 'eh, maybe their not pretty after all'
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post #134 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 10:11 PM
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[QUOTE=Okie-dobie;1205571]I might have posted this picture in this thread already, can't remember..lol!
This is Jasmine, I think she has a very correct head however it should be on a male..lol! This picture she is about 2.5 years old.


I actually love bitches that are a bit "doggy" - so I think her head is lovely.

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post #135 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 10:22 PM
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I am not sure that really helped my opinion of that dog. He has some nice points but to me his nose looks short, neck too thick, chest not quite right either.
I am still fairly new to this (only in the breed 9 years) but I don't think I would breed to that dog, some of the others you posted had much nicer heads.

Once again my unprofessional opinion.

Quote:
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maybe you should see the head in full context to have a better idea...
If you still think this dog looks like a bully breed or a rottie...you have no idea what a proper dobermann looks like.


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post #136 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okie-dobie View Post
I might have posted this picture in this thread already, can't remember..lol!
This is Jasmine, I think she has a very correct head however it should be on a male..lol! This picture she is about 2.5 years old.
Jasmine has a beautiful feminine head (for a euro dobermann) reason you think her head should be on a male is probably because she has a better head than the NA males which you are used to seeing


Quote:
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I am not sure that really helped my opinion of that dog. He has some nice points but to me his nose looks short, neck too thick, chest not quite right either.
I am still fairly new to this (only in the breed 9 years) but I don't think I would breed to that dog, some of the others you posted had much nicer heads.

Once again my unprofessional opinion.
if you could just stop comparing him to the NA dogs then the problem will go away.


since this is an educational thread, i would like to point out one common misunderstanding..
The term "blunt wedge" used in the standards is to describe the look of the head shape viewed from the TOP....not from the side!!

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post #137 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
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Jasmine has a beautiful feminine head (for a euro dobermann) reason you think her head should be on a male is probably because she has a better head than the NA males which you are used to seeing




if you could just stop comparing him to the NA dogs then the problem will go away.
It is possible to get your point across without being rude and insulting. You make it sound like ALL NA dogs are ugly or have bad heads. Maybe that's just how it seems to me and you aren't meaning to come across as rude.

Last edited by Dobelove; 12-11-2012 at 11:51 PM.
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post #138 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:39 PM
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Judging The Doberman Head

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post #139 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:53 PM
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Evolution of the Standard: Head

DPCA Evolution of the Standard Head.
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post #140 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobelove View Post
It is possible to get your point across without being rude and insulting. You make it sound like ALL NA dogs are ugly or have bad heads. Maybe that's just how it seems to me and you aren't meaning to come across as rude.
I don't mean to be rude, but being biased towards the FCI standards & looking from that perspective, that's how it appears as.

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post #141 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 02:04 AM
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and of course no thread on dobermann head is complete without a mention of "the president" himself....Fedor del Nasi
It is commonly accepted that Fedor had one of the best male heads of recent history..





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post #142 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 05:28 AM
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Personal opinion on Fedor's head is its a bit to Great Dane like for me! This is purely a personal view as I don't really understand confirmation on dogs!

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post #143 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 06:00 AM
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Could not agree more! Gorgeous dog but too much lip!


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post #144 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 06:38 AM
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The problem IMHO with looking at European heads is that in 99% of the pictures they are panting - so how can you even judge them with their mouth hanging open and flews flying?? This is a beef I've had with Euro Dobe pictures even since I saw the first one on the internet - are these dogs really that hot all the time?? Are the temperatures in Germany, etc... much hotter than what I think they are?

To me if you are going to compare heads, you have to do apples to apples - mouth closed so you can really see the shape and underjaw.

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post #145 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 06:49 AM
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Fitzmar I hope you don't mind me saying (because I mean it as a compliment!) I think Harvard looks very much like our British dobes...like an 'in between' NA and Euro, is he a mixture? British dobes are my favourite (totally unbiased, of course!) as I think they tend to be very medium, like not overdone with big balloon or pidgeon chests like you see in some others.

I like all types though tbh, but when I spend my money I spend it on dogs that look like his 'type' Infact, if you stick a long curly tail and some floppy ears on him, he is very similar to the sire of my next pup (fingers crossed)



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post #146 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post
Jasmine has a beautiful feminine head (for a euro dobermann) reason you think her head should be on a male is probably because she has a better head than the NA males which you are used to seeing




if you could just stop comparing him to the NA dogs then the problem will go away.


since this is an educational thread, i would like to point out one common misunderstanding..
The term "blunt wedge" used in the standards is to describe the look of the head shape viewed from the TOP....not from the side!!

Thanks, yes I do think she has a beautiful head too! I say that her head should be on a male because I personally don't think it's very feminine. I guess your right, you look at heads like this all the time on the females over there. So it would not be considered doggy looking.

I think there is some heads on the N.A. dogs that are outstanding and gorgeous! But sometimes I need to glance underneath the dog to check their sex, I find some of the male heads in N.A. pretty feminine looking. Of course this is my opinion when I have been out at the shows lately.

Personally I think Fedor's head looks very correct. Although I hate when a lot of euro dogs open their mouths to pant..lol! I find it ruins the appearance of his head, he is all gums and lips! It appears he has good under jaw but so much extra skin, not very tight lips AT ALL. So I think that's why some people think euro dogs can have a Great Dane type head.

It's all what you get use to looking at in your own country, although sometimes you would think we have two different breeds..lol!

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post #147 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 07:18 AM
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Just a picture of Jasmine with her mouth open, totally changes things IMO.


And one more with her mouth closed and a side profile, pretty "wet neck" too..

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post #148 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by BenVera View Post
Does Jocelyn ever plan to breed Fifi? I think she's absolutely stunning. And she's got quite a personality from what I've seen on facebook. I'm a fan of hers as well.
To be honest I really don't know, but I do know if she does breed her those puppies will be stunning! Not to mention taken before they are conceived! lol .. I do know she bred Fifi's sister Star but sadly lost both puppies Star was carrying.

The dogs all shown in this thread are gorgeous, its plain to see why they are show dogs. I look at my two and while they are both absolutely perfect in my eyes I know they couldnt hold a candle to any of these.

This is one of the head shots I have of Nexus, and she no way stands up to the others in here but I love her

and Bella when she was under a year old

I cant believe the size difference between the two, Nexus has such a petite little head and Bella's is larger, which comes from the Euro in her.

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post #149 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
how can you even judge them with their mouth hanging open and flews flying??
Believe it or not...we work them just before they go in the ring so they keep their mouth open for judging..
The judges prefer this also because you can hide a weak jaw under loose lips but you cannot hide it with the mouth open..
Our judges dont not need the mouth closed to compare the apples

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post #150 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post
Believe it or not...we work them just before they go in the ring so they keep their mouth open for judging..
The judges prefer this also because you can hide a weak jaw under loose lips but you cannot hide it with the mouth open..
Our judges dont not need the mouth closed to compare the apples
And here I thought that they were just physically incapable of keeping their mouths closed. Learn something new every day.

Do the judges not actually put their hands on a dog during judging in Europe? Do they not examine the bite? I'd think it would be easy enough to check the underjaw while examining the bite.


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