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Old 12-11-2012, 04:24 PM   #101 (permalink)
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I have to say one fault that I can't stand is a really wet lipped dog. I do like a masculine look to males - it'll be interesting to see how Richter matures.

I particularly like kates' Alfred (Sherluck's North by Northwest):

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Old 12-11-2012, 04:29 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolonurse View Post
asmit - to my eye, that first photo has lines which are more in accordance with a Malinois or GSD. I've been around Dobes for 62 years, and while heads, necks, chests, feet - all have had multiple changes over the years, I've never seen such shallow facial lines... you may be right that it's the angle of the photo, but then it's a pretty bad example. (imo)
Going with this, I think citto v. wudritz had a pretty ugly head IMO. He was a great dog but that head was hard to get rid of if you look at his offspring..razor at masaya seemed to overcome it though

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Old 12-11-2012, 04:33 PM   #103 (permalink)
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A caveat to your question:

Why are we losing what was once considered the standard? As I said before, if reputable breeders are trying to breed dobes that conform to the standard, then why do these modern dogs look SO much different (for better and for worse) than the dogs who the standard was based on?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post

I agree some features are difficult to gain back once lost, but its not impossible and can be achieved in time if desired.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:38 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Quote:
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A caveat to your question:

Why are we losing what was once considered the standard? As I said before, if reputable breeders are trying to breed dobes that conform to the standard, then why do these modern dogs look SO much different (for better and for worse) than the dogs who the standard was based on?!
Iceman can answer this as well but personally my answer to this is that while we can say that about breeders that doesn't mean that both them and judges don't selectively end up breeding for what they prefer..

Like shepherds for example, it started quite simply with a slightly more rear angulated dog coming in the ring and judges starting to pick that...now it's just grown more and more to become the accepted representation of the standard.

That's basically what happens, if judges and breeders are judging and breeding to their interpretation of the standard/what's winning then that is what your dog is going to look like today.

The same thing happened with collie eyes, they got quite small for a while because it was winning but judges are fighting back and wanting the regular eyes back so larger more "normal" eyes are being bred for.
You see it in todays heavy labs, imo way to light goldens, and etc...
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:38 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Zephyr, who is Liberty's breeder? She's gorgeous all-around but she does have a particularly lovely head. Very nice.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:42 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenVera View Post
A caveat to your question:

Why are we losing what was once considered the standard? As I said before, if reputable breeders are trying to breed dobes that conform to the standard, then why do these modern dogs look SO much different (for better and for worse) than the dogs who the standard was based on?!
Todays standard isn't based on a certain dog or even certain dogs features. The standard has been adapted to improve the breed so it's a lot different then it was when the breed was first created.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:44 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Zephyr, who is Liberty's breeder? She's gorgeous all-around but she does have a particularly lovely head. Very nice.
Thanks. Her breeders are Hannah and Ignatius Valmont in Kansas. I think she's from the only litter they've had thus far, but I believe they have something in the works currently. She's out of jdd's Alex (as are many of the dogs on this board) with a nice mix of South American blood on her dam's side.

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Old 12-11-2012, 04:53 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lolonurse View Post
asmit - to my eye, that first photo has lines which are more in accordance with a Malinois or GSD. I've been around Dobes for 62 years, and while heads, necks, chests, feet - all have had multiple changes over the years, I've never seen such shallow facial lines... you may be right that it's the angle of the photo, but then it's a pretty bad example. (imo)
Lol ill try to find a better example but I never posted it as a perfect head. I was reading the conversation about the differences in what people like and was using it as an example of what I like differs from what most like.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:55 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Going with this, I think citto v. wudritz had a pretty ugly head IMO. He was a great dog but that head was hard to get rid of if you look at his offspring..razor at masaya seemed to overcome it though

Lol another example of my preference... I actually liked his look although not correct. I really like razors littermate a ton.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:14 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Picture when he was an old man. I'd prefer more under jaw and his lips got loser in his senior years. Not that that should be an 'old dog' complaint but they were not that loose when he was an adult.

One other point about heads that has been mentioned before, a good crop can cover up faults in heads and few dogs have nice enough heads to pull of a short crop. ( taken from murreydobe actually)

Just to post a picture showing that he does have a stop! The top of his head is certainly not a straight line to his muzzle and nose
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:20 PM   #111 (permalink)
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I've always loved Ch. Cha-Rish Trophy Hunter "Hef" head
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:24 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmit View Post
Two of my favorite biasedly sourced heads:

Love this boys planes, although his crop is too short
It looks like a sight hound or herding dog when there is no stop like this. There needs to be distinct stop but not too much like the euro show dogs posted early on, those are too mastiff-y IMO. To me Trotyl has be best doberman head posted so far in this thread, at least in profile.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:27 PM   #113 (permalink)
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I love this type of topic. I love to learn! I am a visual learner and this topic is helpful! It has helped my perception become reality when looking at the photos of heads. Jet is Lucas sire. I have to look at lucas head again closer, but to me he strongly favors jet and I think jet has a lovely head.


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Old 12-11-2012, 05:30 PM   #114 (permalink)
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I have to say - one thing I don't really like in head features...is what shows in an open mouth, of some dobes:
- when a dobes "tongue" sticks out a small mile, while most don't at all

BTW - great thread....is their a dangling or non-dangling "tongue length" standard ??
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:40 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I have to say - one thing I don't really like in head features...is what shows in an open mouth, of some dobes:
- when a dobes "tongue" sticks out a small mile, while most don't at all

BTW - great thread....is their a dangling or non-dangling "tongue length" standard ??
I think the amount of tongue dangle just grows as the dogs get increasingly warmer.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:55 PM   #116 (permalink)
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It looks like a sight hound or herding dog when there is no stop like this. There needs to be distinct stop but not too much like the euro show dogs posted early on, those are too mastiff-y IMO. To me Trotyl has be best doberman head posted so far in this thread, at least in profile.
I agree with you. There needs to be more in between the two extremes.

Here's another picture at a slightly better angle. He still doesn't have much as a stop but the ear crop and picture angles make it seem much worse.

This thread did point out to me the structural 'faults' tht I tend to gravitate towards though. Interesting.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:15 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Some very valid points there..

I dont know how the show scene operates in the states, but dont you have major speciality shows where only dobermans compete and are judged by specialist judges who are experts on the breed?

I agree some features are difficult to gain back once lost, but its not impossible and can be achieved in time if desired..

question is.....is the public ready to accept the changes?
Yes we do but the majority of majors come from all-breed shows with multi-breed judges.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:18 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr View Post
I think the amount of tongue dangle just grows as the dogs get increasingly warmer.
Greenkouki has the record for the longest tongue I think.

Tongues vary just like they do in people. My stepson had so much tongue, the dentist always had to grab the tongue and hold it away from his mouth so he could even see the teeth.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:35 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Zephyr's dog has a really long tongue, it's a close call!
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:14 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Asmit..............who is the dobe with the punishing looking jaws................bet that dog bites deep and hard.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:15 PM   #121 (permalink)
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I found some more pics of these dogs. I love old dog photos

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Originally Posted by Zephyr View Post
Dictator had pretty great qualities for his day. His head is quite dry and clean which I love! He certainly had a presence about him.








dictator


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This dog epitomizes "blunt wedge" in my opinion. I wish we had some better photos!







Ch. Kurt vd Rheinperle-Rhinegold



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Old 12-11-2012, 07:22 PM   #122 (permalink)
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I've always loved Ch. Cha-Rish Trophy Hunter "Hef" head
Sorry you have to go to the link can't copy
The Real Hefner | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
For the most part, the Cha-Rish Dobes have beautiful heads and wonderful neck into shoulders - it is what they are really known for.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:43 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Some of mine - none of my heads are "perfect" but for the most part they are nice heads and the boys look like boys and the girls look like girls -

GCh Fitzmar's Eleventh Hour Cha-Rish "comet"at about 1 1/2 years old

Comet at 2 1/2 - I don't have any just head shots...

GCh Fitzmar's Command a Minute CGC "Harvard" at almost 5. I'd fault him for being slightly short in muzzle
Harvard at 22 months of age


Their Mother - Ch Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise" while again she could use a touch more length of muzzle, she has the wonderful tight skin - and she threw her head in many of her puppies. The picture is at an angle, but it really shows the poured into tight skin that is so correct.

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Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil CGC "Jezebel"

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Old 12-11-2012, 07:49 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Some of mine - none of my heads are "perfect" but for the most part they are nice heads and the boys look like boys and the girls look like girls -

GCh Fitzmar's Eleventh Hour Cha-Rish at about 1 1/2 years old


GCh Fitzmar's Command a Minute CGC "Harvard" at almost 5. I'd fault him for being slightly short in muzzle
Harvard at 22 months of age


Their Mother - Ch Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise" while again she could use a touch more length of muzzle, she has the wonderful tight skin - and she threw her head in many of her puppies. The picture is at an angle, but it really shows the poured into tight skin that is so correct.

See I absolutely love your harvard as is, and his mother too, I think that length of muzzle gives him a more proportional look and if it was longer he would probably get that slightly snipey look I see in a lot of NA dobes IMO

He has my ideal head and overall he's one of my views of an ideal dobe, everything fits together without exaggerations in the chest/waist/or neck areas and he's not to long in body either.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:57 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Quote:
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See I absolutely love your harvard as is, and his mother too, I think that length of muzzle gives him a more proportional look and if it was longer he would probably get that slightly snipey look I see in a lot of NA dobes IMO

He has my ideal head and overall he's one of my views of an ideal dobe, everything fits together without exaggerations in the chest/waist/or neck areas and he's not to long in body either.
Thanks! I'm flattered but if you read the standard, the muzzle and the backskull should be the same, and Harvard has more backskull than muzzle. I don't love him any less for it, but as a breeder recognize that it isn't totally correct. His 1/2 brother Comet actually has IMHO the better head.... I just love Harvard's for oozing "boy"

There is the standard, and then there is reality - our standard is very well written, but there is a smidge of room for interpretation and personal bias.
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