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post #76 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 01:29 PM
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I think this dog had some underjaw:



Oldie, but goodie - the first head is Roman Nose and the last head is Dish Faced, meaning that the muzzle is pointing upward up the end above the plane of the skull - broken in the middle of the head, not the middle of the muzzle.



the boys (rip): Cato, Emerald's Black Onyx, Emerald's Black Quartz
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post #77 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
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I'm trying to find pictures of Illena for reference since it is stated in the article that she had a near-perfect head. Any idea where I can see them? I can then post links to them for others on the thread to see as well.

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Originally Posted by Darkevs View Post
Dobe Head

so hard to find a correct to standard head.

and even harder for breeders to 'keep' good heads..................

i see many lacking depth in the upper jaw or lower jaw....and lacking width/fill, under the eyes.....round eyes.....far from blunt wedges when viewed head on.............heavy backskulls....cheeky...narrow between the eyes.............flews.........small teeth.........short muzzle...........

who has the best head................ i do not know.

but I love looking at all the head types you guys prefer.

that in itself will explain why there are so many different head types out there.

different people prefer different looks..................

Hugz to ALL Doberman!

edit to ad..............BenVera.............have you ever read about Illena and the 7 Sires.........

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post #78 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 02:04 PM
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I'm trying to find pictures of Illena for reference since it is stated in the article that she had a near-perfect head. Any idea where I can see them? I can then post links to them for others on the thread to see as well.
Dow's Illena of Marienland - working-dog.eu

I think this is her. Interesting how heads change in 60 years.
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post #79 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you! You see?! This is a perfect illustration of my point in how heads have evolved over the years, but are still considered acceptable by the AKC, as is evidence by the titles they have earned.

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Dow's Illena of Marienland - working-dog.eu

I think this is her. Interesting how heads change in 60 years.

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post #80 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 02:31 PM
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This dog epitomizes "blunt wedge" in my opinion. I wish we had some better photos!

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post #81 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Agreed. Will you identify this dog, please? I think it would be great if we all could identify the dogs we post pictures of, so others can research them, if they wish. Thanks!

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This dog epitomizes "blunt wedge" in my opinion. I wish we had some better photos!

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post #82 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Odin has such a pleasant expression. I love it!

Is it just me, or does his sire appear to have a fairly short, wet neck?

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Just as a comparison for you... his sire

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post #83 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 02:38 PM
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I really like Vader's head. . . (not biased or anything, lol) - I'm at work so I don't have any pictures of him on this computer.
But I have a couple I can share:





the boys (rip): Cato, Emerald's Black Onyx, Emerald's Black Quartz
Owned by the girls: Enid, Jill (kelpie) and Lana.

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post #84 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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Who is this dog? He's beautiful.

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I think this dog had some underjaw:



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post #85 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 02:42 PM
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Agreed. Will you identify this dog, please? I think it would be great if we all could identify the dogs we post pictures of, so others can research them, if they wish. Thanks!
That is Ch Westphalia's Ramses.


Just from looking at older photos of Dobes, it seems like they have become exponentially more curvy. Bigger, rounder chests, more front and rear angulation, rounded wedges when looking at profile views of heads, etc. Everything is so much more flashy these days...

A lot of earlier US champions appear to be slightly downfaced, too. Their planes aren't parallel in many instances, and I think that has improved quite a bit. Many of them seem to have very little underjaw as well.


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post #86 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 02:44 PM
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Who is this dog? He's beautiful.
Am/Can Ch. Checkmate's Executive


the boys (rip): Cato, Emerald's Black Onyx, Emerald's Black Quartz
Owned by the girls: Enid, Jill (kelpie) and Lana.
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post #87 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 02:59 PM
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I don't know much about confo, but the front and feet on the dog that Viv posted make me shudder LOL - but agree he has a nice head!


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post #88 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 03:04 PM
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I don't know much about confo, but the front and feet on the dog that Viv posted make me shudder LOL - but agree he has a nice head!
I was going to say that back in the '70's the feet were not as tight as they are now. The bigger chest became popular with Sun Hawk, the over-angulated rears became popular with (forgotten who started that). The whole overdone state of the dobe is based on what judges put up and if the all-breed judges see something they like but which is more relevant to a different breed, they manage to popularize the wrong thing.

That is why the DPCA takes so much time these days to educate judges and provide the "dobe at a glance" sheets for judges to remind them of the standard. I think we have gained more substance, tighter feet, but we got oversized dogs, too much rear unbalanced angulation, pigeon chest BUT the breed has currently worked its way back to a more standard dog.

There have been gains and losses and some things are harder to get back once you lose them - the head being an obvious one.

Off my rant now.


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Owned by the girls: Enid, Jill (kelpie) and Lana.
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post #89 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 03:26 PM
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Dictator had pretty great qualities for his day. His head is quite dry and clean which I love! He certainly had a presence about him.



I can certainly see how tailsets and croups have changed over time as well. Gay tails seem a lot more common now than before.


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post #90 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
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The whole overdone state of the dobe is based on what judges put up and if the all-breed judges see something they like but which is more relevant to a different breed, they manage to popularize the wrong thing.

That is why the DPCA takes so much time these days to educate judges and provide the "dobe at a glance" sheets for judges to remind them of the standard. I think we have gained more substance, tighter feet, but we got oversized dogs, too much rear unbalanced angulation, pigeon chest BUT the breed has currently worked its way back to a more standard dog.

There have been gains and losses and some things are harder to get back once you lose them - the head being an obvious one.
.
Some very valid points there..

I dont know how the show scene operates in the states, but dont you have major speciality shows where only dobermans compete and are judged by specialist judges who are experts on the breed?

I agree some features are difficult to gain back once lost, but its not impossible and can be achieved in time if desired..

question is.....is the public ready to accept the changes?

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post #91 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 03:31 PM
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Beautiful dobes from yesteryear

here's a thread I did of old ad's...i really love shinyas hell hath no fury and teradens romeo

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post #92 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 03:43 PM
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Two of my favorite biasedly sourced heads:

Love this boys planes, although his crop is too short

Also love this boy. Don't have a better picture of the head tying into the neck etc
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post #93 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 03:49 PM
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Two of my favorite biasedly sourced heads:

Love this boys planes, although his crop is too short
No stop on either of them!! the planes are almost on a straight line on the first photo..

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post #94 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 03:56 PM
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No stop on either of them!! the planes are almost on a straight line on the first photo..
The first picture is taken at a sharp downward angle. He does have a stop. The second one does not have much of a stop at all. I prefer no stop over too much. Will post my euro show line boy as a reference too later. His stop is too sharp and also sloped. Which personally bothers me more!
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post #95 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 03:58 PM
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The standard actually says "slight" stop.

Top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle

AKC

Frontal nasal descent (Stop)
The frontal nasal descent (stop) is slightly developed but clearly visible

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post #96 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 03:59 PM
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Will post my euro show line boy as a reference too later. His stop is too sharp and also sloped. Which personally bothers me more!
might bother you but sounds like your euro show line dogs head has more correct outline..

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post #97 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 04:14 PM
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I know I am not objective when it comes to my own dog, but I have always thought Liberty's head is her best feature. Some people say it's too doggy and not feminine enough, but I love it. Sorry for the picture spam, but it covers just about every angle. lol

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She has a bit of a wet neck, but her underjaw is quite good, planes are parallel, earset is high, nice amount of fill under eyes, slight stop, etc. Her flews look a bit loose and floppy when she's reeeeeally hot and panting, but otherwise she has a pretty neat mouth.

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post #98 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 04:16 PM
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I LOVE Liberty's head! I so wish I could get a red all natural bitch with a head like hers!


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post #99 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
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might bother you but sounds like your euro show line dogs head has more correct outline..
It's hard to say that it's more correct, actually. That's the problem with fault judging. There's no real scale that determines faults should be weighed the most when considering the dog as a whole (aside from a horrible bite, albinism, or numerous missing teeth). Some people loathe roachy backs, and others are disgusted by overdone chests, and some can't get past a low tailset even if the rest of the dog is divine.

The judges get to make the call on which is unforgiveable--too little stop or too much. It's just so subjective and frustrating sometimes.

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post #100 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 04:20 PM
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asmit - to my eye, that first photo has lines which are more in accordance with a Malinois or GSD. I've been around Dobes for 62 years, and while heads, necks, chests, feet - all have had multiple changes over the years, I've never seen such shallow facial lines... you may be right that it's the angle of the photo, but then it's a pretty bad example. (imo)


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