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post #51 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivienne00 View Post
I don't like the planes - it is tending to dish-faced and is not in synch with the angle and placement of the eyes (which are nice!). I think that the cranium is a bit rounded as well. Probably the heavier bone (to match the rest of the dog) makes it look short compared to the longer NA heads - that bit is about what you are used to.
This is what I can't do without the show lingo.

So maybe I should just not participate? I was hoping that novices and 'experts' alike could have a respectful discussion here in the name of learning and discussion.....

Erica


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post #52 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 10:51 AM
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Ivan is my dog. Let me see if I can find pics illustrating everything.


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post #53 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 10:55 AM
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Frontal bone too high.



Plopped on nose.



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post #54 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 10:56 AM
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I love beautiful dobermann heads! Between a really nice NA head and a really nice euro head I don't really have a preference, though I think the overall standard of heads tends to be better in euro IMO.

Faults I dislike most in heads are light/round eyes, snipey noses or lack of depth of muzzle and too much jowels. I like a lot of bone and a lot of underjaw, with nice dark, well defined markings and a nice big nose with small ears which lie flat against the cheek. The dog RFR posted-WOW!

I think my Rupert has a pleasing expression but just an OK head conformationally speaking. I do think a lot of it is down to personal opinion, likes and dislikes. In judges comments, some people say he has good under jaw, some say they would prefer more. I would personally prefer more. Rupert has a wet neck, most dogs over here seem to have a wet neck. Never been mentioned in my critique I've seen though...



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post #55 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 10:59 AM
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A lot of those last examples of heads to me lose any semblance of a wedge, a lot are most definitely a block vs wedge. Too extreme. Again, in my opinion.


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post #56 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:01 AM
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I don't have one illustrating the sagittal crest.


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post #57 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestat1978 View Post
Frontal bone too high.



Plopped on nose.

Thank you. I really appreciate it - people posting photos and noting both positives and negatives is really helpful. "Plopped on nose" - love it.

Erica


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post #58 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:09 AM
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I'm a huge fan of Jet's head.

But, since I'm incredibly biased, my Siri also has what I consider to be a beautiful head.

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post #59 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:17 AM
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Ok, in the name of learning / understanding here, I'll open myself up. Good/bad of Silas. I don't have many great full side or full front shots. And of course his goober ears "detract" from his expression.



The only truly stacked shot I have of him, but he's only 8 mos old.




OK, help with the terminology. Here's what I pick up.

- Top of his head is a bit rounded, but I think overall planes are nice?
- Where his head and neck come together - a bit wet
- According to what I've learned today, he could have more underjaw, and maybe in the side head profile this is what makes him look a bit lippy?
- I personally would prefer a medium crop aesthetics-wise
- His eyes are more round than almond-shaped.
- His expression is not as strong as many of the other dogs posted. Maybe due to the rounder eyes?
- Decent wedge shape?


If we don't want to go down this route, and want to stick with what we find most attractive, I can start my own thread in the name of discussing head terminology, critiques, etc. Please let me know, OP.

Erica


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post #60 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bean View Post
I don't have any critiques to add because I'm more novice than you, but I absolutely love Silas' expression.

My biggest complaint with Jet, and a lot of his progeny, are that his ears are way too long, in my opinion. I don't think Jet's ears are proportional to his head and that takes away from his overall look for me.

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post #61 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:47 AM
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I think he has a nice expression (and of course I think he's very very expressive), but it's not as "wow" or intense as say Jet or Agador or many of the Euro dogs posted and I think that's his rounder eyes but am not sure.

I agree - I love M's dogs for both rock-solid temperament and looks but I don't like the crazy long show crop, both for aesthetics and also for the maintenance in posting, etc. They are so long they are distracting, I think - again, that's my personal preference. But that's not about Jet, that's about the crop....


I like this girl's head. Again, the mouth is open, but...
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Erica



Last edited by bean; 12-11-2012 at 11:55 AM.
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post #62 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:51 AM
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I agree RVS, I don't find the really long foxfire crops aesthetically pleasing/proportionate to the head. Their dogs are stunning but I think they would look a lot better if the ears matched the head more.
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post #63 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 11:51 AM
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I really like Vader's head. . . (not biased or anything, lol) - I'm at work so I don't have any pictures of him on this computer.
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post #64 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 12:00 PM
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Personally, if I could have a replica of this dog I would be the happiest person in the world:

President King of Darkness

I think he has a nice head, but I'd be curious what the experts would say without the NA/Euro bias. I think a lot of the King of Darkness dogs are nice.
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post #65 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bean View Post
I think he has a nice expression (and of course I think he's very very expressive), but it's not as "wow" or intense as say Jet or Agador or many of the Euro dogs posted and I think that's his rounder eyes but am not sure.

I agree - I love M's dogs for both rock-solid temperament and looks but I don't like the crazy long show crop, both for aesthetics and also for the maintenance in posting, etc. They are so long they are distracting, I think - again, that's my personal preference. But that's not about Jet, that's about the crop....


I like this girl's head. Again, the mouth is open, but...
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going off your picture something about this dog...gala del nasi, really appeals to me, though I wish she was standing in a less stretched stack...I can't find those pictures I've seen before :/


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post #66 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
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I like this girl's head. Again, the mouth is open, but...
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I like this girl's head too. Some of the earlier European one's I think were too extreme.

I'm not a fan of really long show crops either. Every time I see them I think donkey ears. I think it detracts from otherwise good looking dogs.


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post #67 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivienne00 View Post
I don't like the planes - it is tending to dish-faced and is not in synch with the angle and placement of the eyes (which are nice!). I think that the cranium is a bit rounded as well. Probably the heavier bone (to match the rest of the dog) makes it look short compared to the longer NA heads - that bit is about what you are used to.
Dish face is more of a dip in the middle of the muzzle, so the nose is sitting higher. I think those two dogs have roman noses and I agree are way too blocky even with the rest of the dog being large.

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My biggest complaint with Jet, and a lot of his progeny, are that their ears are way too long, in my opinion. I don't think his ears are proportional to his head and that takes away from his overall look for me.
I think it's more Michelle's dogs than Jet kids. Her dogs crops have gotten a lot shorter in the past few years. I also think her cropper does a fairly good job using crops/lengths that fit the dogs head. Some of them are a little too long but I think too long is better than too short.
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post #68 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 12:16 PM
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my Nika at 9 months



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post #69 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
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To me, the red bitch's ears look quite a bit longer than most euro dobes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1491 View Post
going off your picture something about this dog...gala del nasi, really appeals to me, though I wish she was standing in a less stretched stack...I can't find those pictures I've seen before :/


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post #70 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 12:35 PM
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I think your own assessment of your own dog is very fair and maybe a little harsh. I don't find his neck wet nor do I find him lippy to any degree. If these dogs are going to be able to open their mouth to get a full bite on the bad guy, they will need to have ample skin to enable them to open their mouth wide. This does not mean that we want visible flews on the dogs either.

Ine other area that is not mentioned often in this country, but is mentioned in the standard is "fill under the eyes". If you notice the boney structure around his eyes in the head on shot, you will notice that it is wider than the head directly below. This is a good illustration of not having enough fill under the eyes.


Quote:
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OK, help with the terminology. Here's what I pick up.

- Top of his head is a bit rounded, but I think overall planes are nice?
- Where his head and neck come together - a bit wet
- According to what I've learned today, he could have more underjaw, and maybe in the side head profile this is what makes him look a bit lippy?
- I personally would prefer a medium crop aesthetics-wise
- His eyes are more round than almond-shaped.
- His expression is not as strong as many of the other dogs posted. Maybe due to the rounder eyes?
- Decent wedge shape?


If we don't want to go down this route, and want to stick with what we find most attractive, I can start my own thread in the name of discussing head terminology, critiques, etc. Please let me know, OP.

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post #71 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
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To me, the red bitch's ears look quite a bit longer than most euro dobes.
in the better head shots I've seen there a tad on the long side for most euro's but look better than they do here...of all her pictures this is to me not one of her best

--------------------------------

I really like this males head too...I honestly prefer the western/older euro heads



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I like many of the heads they're producing..

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post #72 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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I really appreciate all of the feedback. But I was hoping for more historical references, perhaps.

I'm curious about how the breed standard came to be - in all aspects, but I'm particularly interested in how and why Doberman heads were developed to display these particular features. I'm also curious to know why there are so many differences between NA and euro heads that are purposely bred for. Why do you suppose there isn't more consistency in the AKC and FCI standards, considering we're all technically breeding/buying/showing/working the same dog - a Doberman(n).

While this is a rather subjective topic, as has been pointed out, I would guess at some point along the way of this breed's development, there was a dog, or dogs, who someone, with some kind of authority in the show world, looked at and said, "That's how every Doberman should look". And if enough people agreed on that "look", then a standard is developed. This standard is objective, but it had to be created by enough subjective opinions in order to be set. Those are the dogs I'm hoping to learn about.

I will link to this site again in case anyone missed it, and ask for your thoughts on the historical data shared. Many of our modern champions don't seem to resemble many champions of the past in body nor head. So how and why is it that we haven't maintained the look of the dogs on which the standards were set? Despite how beautiful we all may find Jet or Agador, etc., to be, if we were to see them side by side in the ring with Dictator or Storm, the differences would be pretty obvious to even those like myself - a novice.

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Disclaimer: I'm not trying to anger or insult any NA or Euro breeders in any way by posting this thread. I'm really just interested in learning more about all aspects of the history and evolution of the breed. I respect all of your opinions and comments, and I thank you for participating.

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Last edited by BenVera; 12-11-2012 at 01:05 PM.
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post #73 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 12:59 PM
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Dobe Head

so hard to find a correct to standard head.

and even harder for breeders to 'keep' good heads..................

i see many lacking depth in the upper jaw or lower jaw....and lacking width/fill, under the eyes.....round eyes.....far from blunt wedges when viewed head on.............heavy backskulls....cheeky...narrow between the eyes.............flews.........small teeth.........short muzzle...........

who has the best head................ i do not know.

but I love looking at all the head types you guys prefer.

that in itself will explain why there are so many different head types out there.

different people prefer different looks..................

Hugz to ALL Doberman!

edit to ad..............BenVera.............have you ever read about Illena and the 7 Sires.........


Last edited by Darkevs; 12-11-2012 at 01:01 PM.
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post #74 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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I just did! Thanks!

Illena & The Seven Sires

"Compassion for animals is intimately connected with goodness of character and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man." - Arthur Schopenhauer
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post #75 of 186 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 01:27 PM
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I like bean am extremely novice when it comes to understanding these definitions on what a good head is. Honestly most of the time I have no idea what the hell I am meant to be looking for in good confirmation. I am biased and I love Odin's head but thats because he is my beautiful boy not because I have any idea on whether his head is the right shape or not. I would also love someone to tell me good and bad point on Odin's head. Full western euro bloodlines in him. I have tried for a variety of photos here but I never really aim for a shot which would make judging him easy...

Face on (mouth shut)

Face on (mouth open)

Best side on shot I could find to be honest

Just as a comparison for you... his sire

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