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Old 12-11-2012, 08:06 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Hi Jana. The fourth dog is Trotyl.

As for all of this BS that heads are "subjective", that is just an excuse for accepting the mediocre heads that are so common in the US. There are so few really nice heads here in the US that many have lost there frame of reference or have learned to settle for something less because many of our big winners have less than great heads. Several of our prominent stud dogs produce some very nice qualities, but also frequently produce terrible heads. we do have standards for evaluation of the Head.

From the AKC Standard:

HEAD
Long and dry, resembling a blunt wedge in both frontal and profile views. When seen from the front, the head widens gradually toward the base of the ears in a practically unbroken line. Eyes almond shaped, moderately deep set, with vigorous, energetic expression. Iris, of uniform color, ranging from medium to darkest brown in black dogs; in reds, blues, and fawns the color of the iris blends with that of the markings, the darkest shade being preferable in every case. Ears normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull..

Top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle, with muzzle line extending parallel to top line of skull. Cheeks flat and muscular. Nose solid black on black dogs, dark brown on red ones, dark gray on blue ones, dark tan on fawns. Lips lying close to jaws. Jaws full and powerful, well filled under the eyes..

Teeth strongly developed and white. Lower incisors upright and touching inside of upper incisors true scissors bite. 42 correctly placed teeth, 22 in the lower, 20 in the upper jaw. Distemper teeth shall not be penalized. Disqualifying Faults: Overshot more than 3/16 of an inch. Undershot more than 1/8 of an inch. Four or more missing teeth.


From the FCI Standard:

HEAD

CRANIAL REGION : Strong and in proportion to the body. Seen from the top the head is shaped in the form of a blunt wedge. Viewed form the front the crown line shall be almost level and not dropping off to the ears. The muzzle line extends almost straight to the top line of the skull which falls, gently rounded, into the neck line. The superciliary ridge is well developed without protruding. The forehead furrow is still visible. The occiput shall not be conspicuous. Seen from the front and the top the sides of the head must not bulge. The slight bulge between the rear of the upper jawbone and the cheek bone shall be in harmony with the total length of the head. The head muscles shall be well developed.

Stop : Shall be slight but visibly developed.

FACIAL REGION :
Nose : Nostrils well developed, more broad than round, with large openings without overall protrusion. Black on black dogs; on brown dogs, corresponding lighter shades.

Muzzle : The muzzle must be in the right proportion with the upper head and must be strongly developed. The muzzle shall have depth. The mouth opening shall be wide, reaching to the molars. A good muzzle width must also be present on the upper and lower incisor area.

Flews : They shall be tight and lie close to the jaw which will ensure a tight closure of the mouth. The pigment of the gum to be dark; on brown dogs a corresponding lighter shade.

Jaws/Teeth : Powerful broad upper and under jaw, scissor bite, 42 teeth correctly placed and normal size.

Eyes : Middle sized, oval and dark in colour. Lighter shades are permitted for brown dogs. Close lying eyelids. Eyelids shall be covered with hair. Baldness around the rim of the eye is highly undesirable.

Ears : The ear, which is set high, is carried erect and cropped to a length in proportion to the head. In a country where cropping is not permitted the uncropped ear is equally recognized. (Medium size preferred and with the front edge lying close to the cheeks).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie W View Post
Something that I personally don't care for in some of their heads is the fact that their males often have what reminds me of rottie lips. There is nothing dry or clean to a head like that. Huge, loose, sagging lips, often with fatty rottie-like "smile lines" when shown panting (which they usually are). The red dog in Kansa's post illustrates this perfectly. Maybe their standard doesn't call for a dry head with close lying lips though, I don't really know.
Yes, some of the dogs do tend to be a little too lippy just as many of ours have feminine bitchy heads. However, I don't think this red dog is one of them. I don't think I have ever seen a Doberman with their mouth open that did not have these wrinkles in the corners, at least to some degree. Just where do you expect the skin that closes their mouth to go when they are panting?
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:49 AM   #27 (permalink)
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LOL. No wonder it looked so familiar. Thought it was but wasn't sure.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:02 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
Hi Jana. The fourth dog is Trotyl.

As for all of this BS that heads are "subjective", that is just an excuse for accepting the mediocre heads that are so common in the US.
Well, my opinion is that judging heads (or anything for that matter) IS subjective. I certainly don't care for all of your examples posted of heads that you think are superb either, and there is nothing wrong with that. Actually the one that I like the best of what you posted is Troytl, and his head obviously is not what one would think of when they think Euro style head.

Quote:
Just where do you expect the skin that closes their mouth to go when they are panting?
Some of your own examples that you posted don't have fatty, sagging flews and exaggerated fat rolls for smile lines so obviously some dogs just don't have much to have to put somewhere when they are panting. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with having some "smile lines", especially on dogs, but in my opinion a lot of the Euro dogs have WAY too much.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:31 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Thank you for that info! This is the first I've learned about a proper underjaw. And by comparison to those mentioned, I see what you mean.

I have read that NA breeders have not placed as much importance on head structure and I wonder why that is...

This dog is what I consider to have a perfect head. That's just an opinion of someone with an untrained eye. Who is this dog? Disregard. I should've read all the way through the posts. Trotyl. Lovely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
All three of the dogs mentioned, Agador, RP, and Jet, have nice planes, dark eyes. and good expression. However, all three are lacking in proper underjaw. If there chin is not evident when viewed from the front, they do not have enough underjaw.

These dogs do have some of the better heads found in the US, but breeders as a whole in the US do not put nearly as much emphasis on proper heads as the breeders in Europe. Do all of the dogs in Europe have good heads? Of course not, but they do put more emphasis on a good head.






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Old 12-11-2012, 09:34 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie W View Post
Something that I personally don't care for in some of their heads is the fact that their males often have what reminds me of rottie lips. There is nothing dry or clean to a head like that. Huge, loose, sagging lips, often with fatty rottie-like "smile lines" when shown panting (which they usually are). The red dog in Kansa's post illustrates this perfectly. Maybe their standard doesn't call for a dry head with close lying lips though, I don't really know.
I'm honestly the most particular in what I like when it comes to heads and the head/neck proportion to the body.
I don't hate but don't necessarily love many of the eastern european heads because they look so blocky and square/rectangular and I loose the wedge feel to it, but just the same like you said some of the dogs here seem way to refined in look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie W View Post
Well, my opinion is that judging heads (or anything for that matter) IS subjective. I certainly don't care for all of your examples posted of heads that you think are superb either, and there is nothing wrong with that. Actually the one that I like the best of what you posted is Troytl, and his head obviously is not what one would think of when they think Euro style head.
I think the bold may be getting slightly forgotten already, there are many acclaimed gorgeous dogs on this forum that just aren't my style and vice versa, you'll find it in any breed. Every person is attracted to different traits and conformational points of each dog and views the standard their own way, personally I think it's a good thing and that everyone should be subjective when judging any dog.

-----------------

I guess proportion is what sums it all up to me, the head can have it's minor faults but if it's all proportional to the rest of the dog that certainly helps it blend a lot better instead of sticking out and yelling I have a bad head, it's also why I think some heads look so bitchy in full body pictures but in person are nice, the neck isn't as filled out as I personally prefer then the head seems small for the body. Just my own observations, and why i tend to prefer males as far as american lines.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Mabel's head I personally like though it isn't without flaws, obviously I'm biased, but ask me about the whole dog and i've no issue pointing out her flaws either...she is what she is and I embrace it just like I do all my dogs and their flaws. I welcome criticisms so I can learn what to look for and improve upon in the conformation of my dogs.

I think many would say it's a tad short or compact but it fits her body, she does have a very wet neck though and I don't think that that helps, her lips aren't as tight as they could be but they aren't super jowely either, I think her shape is nice, and she is lacking some in underjaw but I personally wouldn't want a ton more. Overall I think it has a nice base and is in the right ballpark but just not as nice as it could be, but it does fit the heads on her closest euro kennel lineage(outside of the kennel she came from) so i'm not "surprised" by how her head turned out.


DSCN2077 by Mabel9114, on Flickr


. by Mabel9114, on Flickr

this picture below is roughly a year and a half older than all the rest..

DSCN0485 by Mabel9114, on Flickr


DSCN4186edit by Mabel9114, on Flickr


. by Mabel9114, on Flickr


11-28-12 023edit by Mabel9114, on Flickr

View of it's proportion to her body...

11-28-12 020 by Mabel9114, on Flickr

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Old 12-11-2012, 09:35 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Lovely head. Is she a Foxfire dog by chance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobelove View Post
It's not perfect or the best (could use a little more under jaw I think) but I really love Avril's head. Maybe I'm a little bias.

(Not the best picture)


I think with every head (well every feature) there is room for improvement. And people like different things so I don't think there could ever be an agreement on the best head.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:40 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I am definitely not a pro on judging a perfect head, or any other part of a dobe but I do have to say that this dog is simply stunning! And over 60 BIS to her name says something about her form.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:41 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
All three of the dogs mentioned, Agador, RP, and Jet, have nice planes, dark eyes. and good expression. However, all three are lacking in proper underjaw. If there chin is not evident when viewed from the front, they do not have enough underjaw.
Spot on observation...no head without a good strong underjaw is complete!!

here is some nice male heads i shot at IDC2012 last September



















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Old 12-11-2012, 09:43 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Lovely head. Is she a Foxfire dog by chance?
Yes, beautiful Avril is a Foxfire gal.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:46 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Oh and one of my favorite heads and boys in general is "Dakota"

http://www.facebook.com/DakotaAdobe


Euro wise I prefer the older style heads like these....






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Old 12-11-2012, 09:50 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I am such a novice but am following this thread as I always find it interesting. I really appreciate the comment about underjaw - those concrete, visual examples make it easier to understand all of the lingo for non-showers. I can only go on what I find aesthetically appealing with the small tidbit of knowlege I do have.

But I also find it reallllllly difficult to judge a head with the mouth open. Probably more so because I am a novice. But of the ones you posted, I like this one the best.
Quote:
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This one almost has too much underjaw? Or it just seems too "heavy" or blocky for me. More like a bully breed or rottie. I don't have the lingo to express what I mean or am seeing probably. Looks lippy but again maybe hard to tell with the mouth open. I am definitely drawn to square over pointy heads (so I also normally am drawn to males) but this is the other extreme.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:50 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Something that I personally don't care for in some of their heads is the fact that their males often have what reminds me of rottie lips. There is nothing dry or clean to a head like that. Huge, loose, sagging lips, often with fatty rottie-like "smile lines" when shown panting (which they usually are). The red dog in Kansa's post illustrates this perfectly. Maybe their standard doesn't call for a dry head with close lying lips though, I don't really know.
My sentiments exactly and it's a huge turn off for me regarding euro lines. When the heads start resembling other breeds, I'm not interested.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:58 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I think I should have phrased my original question to read like this:

Given that there are AKC and FCI standards for proper conformation, including heads, these standards must have been formed from individual dog(s) who exhibited these desirable features, and were consequently bred to reproduce because of their conformation (among other things of course). Therefore, who was/were that/those dog(s)?

You've all shown some excellent examples of modern dogs, but what about the past generations of dogs who helped shape the standards we strive for today? I think Trotyl is an excellent example, and now I have a much better understanding of a proper underjaw. I didn't know that term when I stated I don't like the look of overly pointy noses. Now I realize it's not the nose, but the lack of underjaw that makes them appear "pointy".

I've read about Blank and Ossi, who produced Dictator, and I've read about Storm. These dogs were all highly regarded for their conformation. However, looking at their heads, I don't really admire them. Thoughts?

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Old 12-11-2012, 10:00 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Does Jocelyn ever plan to breed Fifi? I think she's absolutely stunning. And she's got quite a personality from what I've seen on facebook. I'm a fan of hers as well.

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I am definitely not a pro on judging a perfect head, or any other part of a dobe but I do have to say that this dog is simply stunning! And over 60 BIS to her name says something about her form.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:02 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I agree with you on the second photo. It looks more like a Great Dane head than a Doberman, IMO. I'm as much of a novice as you.

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This one almost has too much underjaw? Or it just seems too "heavy" or blocky for me. More like a bully breed or rottie. I don't have the lingo to express what I mean or am seeing probably. Looks lippy but again maybe hard to tell with the mouth open. I am definitely drawn to square over pointy heads (so I also normally am drawn to males) but this is the other extreme.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:08 AM   #41 (permalink)
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I'm happy you started the thread. I find it a really interesting way to learn, especially when folks aren't just all agreeing with each other and are pointing out different aspects of the conformation. I also like learning about the Euro vs. American standard.

I'm really visual so the photos help quite a lot.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:14 AM   #42 (permalink)
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I tend to like European heads better. I don't like snipey muzzles.

I have to say I think Ivan's head is pretty bad. I've referred to him as Cro-Magnon dog before. I'm not sure of the name for the bones (frontal bone maybe), but the ones above his eyes are way too high. I don't like a prominent sagittal crest either, which Ivan's is close to being. Furthermore, he has a nose that looks like it was just plopped on at the last moment - looks kinda like Rudolph sticking out there.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:19 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestat1978 View Post
I tend to like European heads better. I don't like snipey muzzles.

I have to say I think Ivan's head is pretty bad. I've referred to him as Cro-Magnon dog before. I'm not sure of the name for the bones (frontal bone maybe), but the ones above his eyes are way too high. I don't like a prominent sagittal crest either, which Ivan's is close to being. Furthermore, he has a nose that looks like it was just plopped on at the last moment - looks kinda like Rudolph sticking out there.
I can't stand snipey muzzles. I see way too many NA bitch heads that leave a lot to be desired; I would choose a Euro bitch head any day over NA.

eta: I really like Avril's head and most of the other foxfire females.

Last edited by RottenVonSpotten; 12-11-2012 at 10:24 AM..
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:28 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I just love this thread. I am still learning all the correct terminology and attempting to identify exactly was is being analyzed. I am obsessed with heads! The one thing I know that I prefer is a forehead with a little bit more stop. It seems some Doberman heads lack stop which is not attractive to me. Here is my boy Stryker however I have no clue how to technically analyze it! Would love some feedback!!Who has the BEST Doberman head?-imageuploadedbypg-free1355243242.067283.jpgWho has the BEST Doberman head?-imageuploadedbypg-free1355243265.206676.jpg


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Old 12-11-2012, 10:29 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bean View Post

This one almost has too much underjaw? Or it just seems too "heavy" or blocky for me. More like a bully breed or rottie.

maybe you should see the head in full context to have a better idea...
If you still think this dog looks like a bully breed or a rottie...you have no idea what a proper dobermann looks like.

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Old 12-11-2012, 10:31 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I love Euro heads, but IMO these two are horrible. I had to stop and ugh at them while scrolling

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Old 12-11-2012, 10:32 AM   #47 (permalink)
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maybe you should see the head in full context to have a better idea...
If you still think this dog looks like a bully breed or a rottie...you have no idea what a proper dobermann looks like.
I see what you mean. It deff looks blocky when compared to the other heads though.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:35 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post
maybe you should see the head in full context to have a better idea...
If you still think this dog looks like a bully breed or a rottie...you have no idea what a proper dobermann looks like.

Is it proportional yes...do I personally like it...no

and frankly I find that last part of your sentence rude, maybe i'm missing a humorous tone but we all have preferences and saying that anyone else viewing that head as rottie like or etc.. because it isn't how they like a head means they must not know the breed is rather insulting.... I never told someone they must not know collies because they thought hannahs eyes too small, it's all a preference and a different view on the ideal representation of the standard
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:44 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I see what you mean. It deff looks blocky when compared to the other heads though.
I don't like the planes - it is tending to dish-faced and is not in synch with the angle and placement of the eyes (which are nice!). I think that the cranium is a bit rounded as well. Probably the heavier bone (to match the rest of the dog) makes it look short compared to the longer NA heads - that bit is about what you are used to.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:46 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestat1978 View Post
I tend to like European heads better. I don't like snipey muzzles.

I have to say I think Ivan's head is pretty bad. I've referred to him as Cro-Magnon dog before. I'm not sure of the name for the bones (frontal bone maybe), but the ones above his eyes are way too high. I don't like a prominent sagittal crest either, which Ivan's is close to being. Furthermore, he has a nose that looks like it was just plopped on at the last moment - looks kinda like Rudolph sticking out there.
I'm not sure who Ivan is - can you put in links or photos of what you mean by the sagittal crest if you don't mind?


Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post
maybe you should see the head in full context to have a better idea...
If you still think this dog looks like a bully breed or a rottie...you have no idea what a proper dobermann looks like.

I was very clear that I'm a novice and am trying to articulate what I see. I'm not trying to be snarky about anything here, nor condescending which seems to be the path you want to tread.

I do like some aspects of a more typical Euro dog, as I've mentioned. And though I think that dog's head is more in proportion to his body, I, in my NOVICE opinion (trying to do some respectful discourse here) do not think that it necessarily epitomizes the Doberman breed standard.

I also was more focused on personal aesthetics as well, and I think it's too heavy/blocky or however you want to describe it. I didn't say he looked like a bully or rottie, but that his head was "more like" those lines than others you posted. I'm trying to describe what I see, and I don't have the show lingo to do so. It's an extreme even compared to all of the others you posted.
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