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Old 12-04-2012, 09:09 PM   #201 (permalink)
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I would like to add, I come from a culture where dogs are NOT seen as a part of the family but rather as an accessory, they live outside and their feelings and needs in every sense are not a priority, so for me all this should be very unnatural, but its impossible not to wanna do something about these issues when you actually SEE the extent of the problem, read on it, educate yourself.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:20 PM   #202 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortheloveofadoberman View Post
Thanks I really am interested in this breed I love them dearly, but, I love all animals. I don't think I have noticed so much controversy in a breed like there seems to be with the dobermans. The more I learn, the more confused I get. There are working lines vs American/show lines, to do agility .... being asked what do you want in your dog ? It gets kinda confusing and so many breeders, how do you know who to get a puppy from if you don't do these things? It isn't that I don't want to do this, I just don't live in an area where dog activities are available. I don't mind gettin my knuckles smacked for doing "stupid things" but I just want to know so I don't keep gettin smacked lol. I envy those who have access for all the fun stuff..
The beauty of great breeders is that they will always have pups in their litters that simply need to go to a pet home. You don't need to have some huge impressive resume in the dog world to approach or contact one of these breeders about a puppy or for more info on the breed. Don't feel intimidated or left out, many people here only have time and energy to love their Doberman as just a pet and not a show dog or athlete. Many people on here also only own shelter or rescue dobermans. You're in good company with Doberman fanciers from all walks of life here.

Now the sad thing is a majority of the population thinks they're getting something a special or a good quality deal when they spend 200-800 bucks on a dog from a BYB. This is where public education comes in very handy and it makes it all the more easier to influence people and open their mind when you have a well bred and great ambassador Doberman as your companion out in public. It also makes for good conversation and educational opportunities when you have a rescue Doberman out in public as well. No one in my family is into dogs like I am and we got dogs as strays or from the newspaper and even pet stores. I had no idea there was a whole world of responsible breeders and great breeding programs out there. Many of us have a big learning curve. My first dog on my own is my 6 year old Siberian Husky from a BYB. My second(good dog ) is a handsome, quality Doberman from an ethical breeder.

Now you've also got a great resource to help educate yourself and line your ducks in a row before you start contacting breeders. You can learn how to discern a good breeder from bad, learn the right questions to ask about their breeding program, learn what genetic health testing they should be doing, and read about what to expect when bringing a Doberman puppy or adult into your life from seasoned veterans who've been there, done that, got the sleepless nights to prove it Before I started contacting Dobe breeders I got a piece of paper and wrote down every question I could think of and had it with me when I called them. Helps a lot because when you get to talking its easy to get lost in the conversation and forget all the points you needed to make.

Last edited by ZeldaRules; 12-04-2012 at 09:26 PM..
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:10 PM   #203 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Toby'shuman View Post
I would like to say this, whilst I have found my heart dog in Toby and have fallen for Dobermans in a big way, I do not in any shape or form support BYB's.

Sometimes even after research some of us allow our heart to get the better of our judgement and we end up doing something which doesnt always sit right with others. It doesn't make whatever it is right, neither does it make me or anyone guilty of it, bad.

But as the old saying goes......

To err is human, to forgive is divine.

If I ever get another Dobe in the future it will either be a rescue or from a reputable breeder.

But until then I will just love my Chocolate, Brown, Runt with markings of fire from my Spanish BYB just as much as any one of you guys who have bought ethically from your reputable breeders.

Peace and love to all.

Sort of a side note, but I love that rust markings are "fuego" in Spanish.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:39 AM   #204 (permalink)
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Now you've also got a great resource to help educate yourself and line your ducks in a row before you start contacting breeders. You can learn how to discern a good breeder from bad, learn the right questions to ask about their breeding program, learn what genetic health testing they should be doing, and read about what to expect when bringing a Doberman puppy or adult into your life from seasoned veterans who've been there, done that, got the sleepless nights to prove it Before I started contacting Dobe breeders I got a piece of paper and wrote down every question I could think of and had it with me when I called them. Helps a lot because when you get to talking its easy to get lost in the conversation and forget all the points you needed to make.
I certainly wish I had this resource prior to getting my black/rust girl. I love her to death, however had I known the reputation of the greeder I got her from I never would have bought her, knowing the potential for problems. And she definitely has them. Had I never bought her I wouldnt have come to love her so much but you know I wouldnt have the issues I have with her either. She cant go play with other dogs, she cant go to training classes, she cant even sit in the room with us most of the time to watch tv. I spend alot of time recording shows to watch when she is outside with her sister. I really wish I could give her all the normal things a well adjusted dog could have and do.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:04 AM   #205 (permalink)
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I'm still blown away to be getting criticized for buying from a BYB and not even knowing what one was for that matter, especially after adopting 3 animals in the past from a shelter.
At the risk of dragging this maniacal thread out even more, just want to clarify for DD - you are not being criticized for making an uninformed decision and buying from a BYB. Many of the regular DT posters have done the same and shared their stories with you. The criticism comes from the defiant, nonsensical justifications you throw down now, after KNOWING you bought from a BYB.

You admit that in purchasing from a BYB you helped perpetuate the dilution of the breed standard and your willful nonchalance about the health issues that plague our beloved breed are infuriating. *I* am blown away by your disbelief this attitude should somehow be accepted here.

You want a cheap Doberman, adopt from a rescue. You would get unending support and adulation here.

You don't like certain rescues in your area, work with a different one. Many on DT can point you in the direction of fantastic rescue orgs to get you the affordable Doberman of your dreams.

It's really not that complicated.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:20 AM   #206 (permalink)
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You don't like certain rescues in your area, work with a different one. Many on DT can point you in the direction of fantastic rescue orgs to get you the affordable Doberman of your dreams.


Heck, Skoll's coming from Canada. There are more than 1200 doberman on petfinder in my reachable area. At least two of them I could take a 10 minute drive and go look at them now. The problem I ran into was that many of them are no cats or untested with cats and I'm not willing to risk Saffron.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:50 AM   #207 (permalink)
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There are alternatives to financing a byb.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:11 AM   #208 (permalink)
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I have a hard time believing you've done any real work in rescue yet you still don't understand what's wrong with BYB.

I think you're asking the wrong questions. To me it seems like you're very uninformed about what a GOOD breeder is along with little know understanding of the details and why's of good breeders. I think you need a better understanding of good breeders so you can see the difference between them and a BYB for yourself.



There are already a lot of deaths caused by BYBs when animals are dumped on the street, dumped in shelters, picked-up and euth'd by animal control, neglected proper veterinary care, and on and on and on...

People who can't afford to properly care for the dogs do already end up with them thanks to BYB - because BYB don't screen homes, nor do they follow up on care and life of the puppy/dog. When they get their money there is no concern or attempt to follow up on the home and life of the pup.

Also, plenty of people have more than enough money to purchase and house a dog. It doesn't mean they're well suited for a dog as a pet. In this country it seems nearly everyone and their cousin believes their entitled to a dog whether or not they have any clue how to actually care for, raise, and train the animal. BYBs will sell their pups to ANYONE. Good breeders don't. Which is another reason some people buy from a BYB - because there is no screening process or expectations other than being able to afford the purchase price and they're turned down by a good breeder who sees reasons they're probably not a good home or owner. The BYB puts a pup in their hands anyway.



Being rich doesn't mean his breeder is better than a low-income BYB, nor does it mean she could *easily* breed champions. It takes a hell of a lot more than just money to breed champion dogs. Don't get me wrong, you do need money for health testing, proper care, and titling, but that is not the end all, be all to breeding champion dogs. Far from it.

Also, at $500 per puppy when she's putting little to no money into her breeding decisions and I don't doubt she does have quite a bit of money in her bank account.
I also doubt very much she could breed good dobermans if this pup is 'already really big' or whatever it said.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:44 AM   #209 (permalink)
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Having read more of this thread I noticed the part about dogs costing $1500.
Realistically this is a massive contributor to the BYB problem.
1500 bucks is alot of money whether you are loaded or not.
£930 about the same as a top flight doberman over here.

Considering you can get an excellent Working mal for about 500 pound here or a good GSD, that is pretty steep all things considered and your not buying into the genetic liability.
Until this cost comes down the problem will continue.
As far as I can tell it cannot come down any lower.
Are these breeders losing money, breaking even or gaining money on these sales?
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:47 AM   #210 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Heck, Skoll's coming from Canada. There are more than 1200 doberman on petfinder in my reachable area. At least two of them I could take a 10 minute drive and go look at them now. The problem I ran into was that many of them are no cats or untested with cats and I'm not willing to risk Saffron.
That is an incredible figure.
There were only 1700 doberman pups registered in the uk last year.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:10 PM   #211 (permalink)
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There are 41 Dobe or Dobe mixes within 100 miles of my zipcode on Petfinder. Eight of them are with ADAPT in Houston. Sixteen are with Houston Area Doberman Rescue. If you expand the search area to 500 miles, there are 243 dogs. That's just what's on Petfinder. That doesn't count all the "free to a good home" dogs out there on kijiji or the like, or dogs picked up by, or turned in to, AC in places that don't put them on Petfinder.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:15 PM   #212 (permalink)
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Matt you need to read the cost of raising a litter thread on here...
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:19 PM   #213 (permalink)
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That is an incredible figure.
There were only 1700 doberman pups registered in the uk last year.
Registered is not the be all end all. I know of a few folks in the UK with unregistered dogs breeding their unregistered dogs from a different forum. I'm sure less than half of those dogs on petfinder, if that, are papered.

Also something to keep in mind Matt is that I live in the middle of puppy mill central and The Kennel(coughmillcough) That Shall Not Be Named is an hour's drive from my place. The two rescue dobes that I could easily go see right now are both breeding dogs that were dumped. Many of the Dobes in the area have fancy "show" names, usually beginning with Said Kennel That Shall Not Be Named. Doesn't take much to add up, especially when dogs easily have 5-10 puppies in each litter and roughly 2 heat cycles per year.

In my story about my old pastor's Goldens, his two dogs quickly became 4 of his own litters, 4 additional from planned breedings of offspring, several accidental litters, perhaps 4 or 5, and at least 6 planned litters in the next few years. If we estimate that each of these litters had 8 puppies total, that's about 150 dogs produced in 6 year's time by one family.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:20 PM   #214 (permalink)
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Matt you need to read the cost of raising a litter thread on here...
Thank you, it's been explained as nauseum and I know Matt has seen those posts.

I can't fathom a quality working GSD with a going price of $500 with all the testing and titling that costs thousands of dollars. One of my friend's stud dogs has about 30k invested in him. t's just different here I guess?
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:48 PM   #215 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Until this cost comes down the problem will continue.

Are these breeders losing money, breaking even or gaining money on these sales?
Come on, Matt, you've been here long enough to know the answer to this.

But for those who may not have seen these threads (they are in the archives), here are a couple:

Cost of having a litter of puppies....

A Breeders Journal

Breeders don't just magically pull a number out of a hat and decide that's what they're going to charge. There are substantial costs that go into a breeding and having a litter (if you do it the right way, that is), and most breeders are LUCKY to break even on a litter. More often than not, they actually lose money. They certainly aren't doing it to make a profit (unlike BYBs and puppy mills), that's for sure.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:04 PM   #216 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaRules View Post
Thank you, it's been explained as nauseum and I know Matt has seen those posts.

I can't fathom a quality working GSD with a going price of $500 with all the testing and titling that costs thousands of dollars. One of my friend's stud dogs has about 30k invested in him. t's just different here I guess?
Yeah a Mal or working GSD costs about the same as a Doberman here.
I can't fathom people paying $3500 for a labradoodle from the pet store!
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:17 PM   #217 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burns View Post
More often than not, they actually lose money. They certainly aren't doing it to make a profit (unlike BYBs and puppy mills), that's for sure.
This thread is exhausting. I just wanted to make a quick comment. Most breeders do it for hobby. They do it because they enjoy it, even if it means they're investing money.

I think many of us can agree that we feel better supporting a person who does something because they truly enjoy it, rather than someone who's doing it to make a profit anyway.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:26 PM   #218 (permalink)
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Starlight I am really considering suing ypou for libel.
You state I do my own tail cropping. That is a lie. Twin Oaks in cameron MO does my tail cropping, and is the one that did your doberman.
May we see your dobermans tail?
Also I do not beleive you have talked to three people that have bought a doberman from me.
Lisa Rose sent me a retraction.
Dainelle tried to scam me.
You have never been to my place, and it is only 15 miles from cameron MO.
You went to a friend of mine's house that was taking care of my dobermans while I was recovering from Gullian Barre. I am sorry that they did not want strangers in thier home or milling around thier property.
When I spoke to your husband, he assured me he would use cesar millan training methods.
My dobermans need proper training. They are not your sissy show doberman types.
They are bred to Her Louis Doberman's temperment standards.
I have recieved many emails from past customers telling me how thier doberman protected them, and thanking me.
I am sorry I did not do a better job of screening you, as my dobermans do need a good pack leader, and not some one who is going to let them run ship shod over them.
I would be willing to properly train your doberman for a fee, provided you continue using cesar millans trainning methods.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:30 PM   #219 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerwin50 View Post
Starlight I am really considering suing ypou for libel.
You state I do my own tail cropping. That is a lie. Twin Oaks in cameron MO does my tail cropping, and is the one that did your doberman.
May we see your dobermans tail?
Also I do not beleive you have talked to three people that have bought a doberman from me.
Lisa Rose sent me a retraction.
Dainelle tried to scam me.
You have never been to my place, and it is only 15 miles from cameron MO.
You went to a friend of mine's house that was taking care of my dobermans while I was recovering from Gullian Barre. I am sorry that they did not want strangers in thier home or milling around thier property.
When I spoke to your husband, he assured me he would use cesar millan training methods.
My dobermans need proper training. They are not your sissy show doberman types.
They are bred to Her Louis Doberman's temperment standards.
I have recieved many emails from past customers telling me how thier doberman protected them, and thanking me.
I am sorry I did not do a better job of screening you, as my dobermans do need a good pack leader, and not some one who is going to let them run ship shod over them.
I would be willing to properly train your doberman for a fee, provided you continue using cesar millans trainning methods.
Casear Millan training? Sissy show doberman types? Pack leaders?

That's a lot of craziness in one post.

I guess I wasn't done with this thread afterall.

Also, I don't think she called you out at all. I think you called you out.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:32 PM   #220 (permalink)
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Oh, here we go.....it was just a matter of time before you showed up. There really must have been a memo sent out.

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Old 12-05-2012, 03:10 PM   #221 (permalink)
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How is that crazy?
Your saying cesar millan's training methods are crazy.
Are you saying cannie's don't have a pack behavior?
And yes alot of show dobermans will cringe in the face of danger, just fire off a gun an watch them run.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:20 PM   #222 (permalink)
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Good grief.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:22 PM   #223 (permalink)
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Hmmmm I wonder where the OP ran off to. Seems to have disappeared after starting this lovely thread
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:23 PM   #224 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerwin50 View Post
How is that crazy?
Your saying cesar millan's training methods are crazy.
Are you saying cannie's don't have a pack behavior?
And yes alot of show dobermans will cringe in the face of danger, just fire off a gun an watch them run.
my dog falls asleep around gunshots.

PS: the phrase is "a lot," unless you mean this.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:29 PM   #225 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
my dog falls asleep around gunshots.

PS: the phrase is "a lot," unless you mean this.
Thats sad, Dobermans are suppose to be alert
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