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Old 12-04-2012, 01:11 AM   #151 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EmilyB View Post
No, it was worded badly. I meant Walmart customers who want the freaking world to make things cheap for them, better??

I never shop at Walmart...
Good, obviously completely different topic, but the way you guys feel about BYBs, is the way I feel about Walmart.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:14 AM   #152 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by the_discowhore View Post
I agree with you (though have never dealt with any aggression in Goldens before, but my country/dog population is a LOT smaller than yours!)

Soo when someone has 2 lovely pet Dobermans, 13 months old, healthy, that are friendly, look nice enough (every second person stops them on the street to say how beautiful they are!), behave around the house, have never bitten anyone... and they decide on a whim to breed them, they might make a little money, the kids will get to see the miracle of birth, do you think they are doing the breed a favour in this case? Is in the best internet of the breed for these two pets to be mated?
No I do not, I agree with you there.

I will say though, in some cases, they want to experience having a liter, especially in my case, both were AKC, and are very healthy dogs.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:14 AM   #153 (permalink)
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Good, obviously completely different topic, but the way you guys feel about BYBs, is the way I feel about Walmart.
Oh my, I think I found a bridge!


I think that the general view is that BYBs (and greeders and puppy mills) are the Walmart of dog breeders.



Anybody, am I right?
I hope so because I think I have to be done.
It's late and the BYB love threads over the past few days have made my head hurt.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:16 AM   #154 (permalink)
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Oh my, I think I found a bridge!


I think that the general view is that BYBs (and greeders and puppy mills) are the Walmart of dog breeders.



Anybody, am I right?
I hope so because I think I have to be done.
It's late and the BYB love threads over the past few days have made my head hurt.
I appreciate the civil conversation. I really do, as for me coming back in this forum after tonight, that is still to be decided.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:20 AM   #155 (permalink)
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No I do not, I agree with you there.

I will say though, in some cases, they want to experience having a liter, especially in my case, both were AKC, and are very healthy dogs.
In my experience, a large portion of BYBs are doing something along the lines of what I mentioned... They aren't trying to be malicious, they aren't horrible people... But they probably should not be breeding those dogs.

Regarding "experiencing a litter" - is that for the benefit of children, or for the dog?

AKC registration doesn't really mean much unfortunately, it proves that the dog is indeed a Doberman, or a Border Collie, or a Mastiff... But it does not prove that the dog has a temperament suitable for breeding, or correct conformation for the breed. AKC is just a registry for dogs, like whatever organisation it is that registers cars in your country - just because the car is registered doesn't mean it's good
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:22 AM   #156 (permalink)
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Omg is there a full moon out!? It's like all the BYB defenders have come to riot :/

Btw.... I can't imagine that anyone who would refer to a red/rust dobe puppy as "chocolate" would understand why people here are so passionate against BYB's.

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Thank you guys!

I actually only have the one picture I shot on my phone yesterday, she is the front chocolate one in the front, will post more later


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Old 12-04-2012, 01:24 AM   #157 (permalink)
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\

AKC registration doesn't really mean much unfortunately, it proves that the dog is indeed a Doberman, or a Border Collie, or a Mastiff...
Not necessarily unfortunately. Many bad breeders forge papers on litters.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:27 AM   #158 (permalink)
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Omg is there a full moon out!? It's like all the BYB defenders have come to riot :/

Btw.... I can't imagine that anyone who would refer to a red/rust dobe puppy as "chocolate" would understand why people here are so passionate against BYB's.





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So your telling me that Dobermans don't have the color "Chocolate and Tan"? Last time I checked they did.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:29 AM   #159 (permalink)
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Not necessarily unfortunately. Many bad breeders forge papers on litters.
Hah, yes that is very true! It's meant to prove lineage, but not always the case! That is presumably how you get Dobermans like what the BYB Garrett's Dobermans produced (puppy picture below)

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Old 12-04-2012, 01:30 AM   #160 (permalink)
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So your telling me that Dobermans don't have the color "Chocolate and Tan"? Last time I checked they did.
Technically no, it's a terminology thing. Dobermans are red/rust if you're in America, and brown/rust in some parts of Europe (correct me if I'm wrong guys!)
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:31 AM   #161 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DoberDad90 View Post
So your telling me that Dobermans don't have the color "Chocolate and Tan"? Last time I checked they did.

COAT

Smooth-haired, short, hard, thick and close lying. Invisible gray undercoat on neck permissible..


Color and Markings

Allowed Colors: Black, red, blue, and fawn (Isabella). Markings : Rust, sharply defined, appearing above each eye and on muzzle, throat and forechest, on all legs and feet, and below tail. White patch on chest, not exceeding 1/2 square inch, permissible. Disqualifying Fault : Dogs not of an allowed color.


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DPCA | The Doberman | Standard
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:33 AM   #162 (permalink)
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Not once have I ever heard of a chocolate doberman lol we aren't breeding with labs here.


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Old 12-04-2012, 01:34 AM   #163 (permalink)
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:34 AM   #164 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_discowhore View Post
Hah, yes that is very true! It's meant to prove lineage, but not always the case! That is presumably how you get Dobermans like what the BYB Garrett's Dobermans produced (puppy picture below)

Omg... What is that? Is that really a doberman puppy or are you saying the papers say doberman when clearly it isn't


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Old 12-04-2012, 01:35 AM   #165 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberDad90 View Post
So your telling me that Dobermans don't have the color "Chocolate and Tan"? Last time I checked they did.
Technically no, it's a terminology thing. Dobermans are red/rust if you're in America, and brown/rust in some parts of Europe (correct me if I'm wrong guys!)

AKC Standard...
Quote:
Allowed Colors: Black, red, blue, and fawn (Isabella). Markings : Rust, sharply defined, appearing above each eye and on muzzle, throat and forechest, on all legs and feet, and below tail. White patch on chest, not exceeding 1/2 square inch, permissible. Disqualifying Fault : Dogs not of an allowed color.
FCI (European) Standard...
Quote:
COLOURS
The colour is black, dark brown or blue, with rust red clearly defined and clean markings. Markings on the muzzle, as a spot on the cheeks and the top of the eyebrow; on the throat, two spots on the forechest, on the metacarpus, metatarsus and feet, on the inside of the back thigh, on the arms and below the tail.

I've only ever heard the term "chocolate" used for a doberman by people who don't know the breed and BYBs who want to make them sound friendly.


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Old 12-04-2012, 01:35 AM   #166 (permalink)
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COAT

Smooth-haired, short, hard, thick and close lying. Invisible gray undercoat on neck permissible..

A friends Choc. and Tan Dachshund that is the same color as our apparently red Doberman...

Color and Markings

Allowed Colors: Black, red, blue, and fawn (Isabella). Markings : Rust, sharply defined, appearing above each eye and on muzzle, throat and forechest, on all legs and feet, and below tail. White patch on chest, not exceeding 1/2 square inch, permissible. Disqualifying Fault : Dogs not of an allowed color.


From:

DPCA | The Doberman | Standard
A friends Choc. and Tan Dachshund that is the same color as our apparently red Doberman...
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:36 AM   #167 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Omg... What is that? Is that really a doberman puppy or are you saying the papers say doberman when clearly it isn't


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I'm sure if you ask the breeder it's 100% pure Doberman with the papers to back it up *rolls eyes*
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:37 AM   #168 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DoberDad90 View Post
A friends Choc. and Tan Dachshund that is the same color as our apparently red Doberman...
But we aren't talking about dachshunds. Two different breeds. Two different standards.


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Old 12-04-2012, 01:38 AM   #169 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberDad90 View Post
A friends Choc. and Tan Dachshund that is the same color as our apparently red Doberman...
Whoops didn't mean to thank that.. damn phone :/

They are called red/rust (US) or brown/rust (EU) in the Doberman breed. Other breeds classify their coat colors different ways, depending on the breed.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:41 AM   #170 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sharly View Post
But we aren't talking about dachshunds. Two different breeds. Two different standards.


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Obviously not... My mistake, didn't know I was going to get critiqued on terminology too.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:47 AM   #171 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DoberDad90 View Post
Obviously not... My mistake, didn't know I was going to get critiqued on terminology too.
Well, if you're going to expect any credibility at all, on any subject you're debating, it's best to be cognizant of at least the 101 level basics.

Patchwork is correct, in that only n00bs and BYBs refer to red Dobermans as "chocolate."

Likewise, if you were going to go to a ESS (English Springer Spaniel) message board and start spouting off about how much you knew about that breed and related issues to the breed, you'd instantly mark yourself as a rank novice by calling your dog "chocolate and white," rather than "liver and white."
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:05 AM   #172 (permalink)
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My old Majorcan Mastif was a champion, her owner had shown her in countries as far afield as Poland, UK and Spain and had won just about everything you could ever think of in relation to her breed. On the surface he appeared to be all that you could wish for when it came to a reputable breeder. He health tested. He attended, won countless shows as I have said and well he talked the talk and walked the walk.
Yet her owner, the big 'I am the best thing to happen to Majorcan Mastifs ever' was nothing but a fraud. In the case of my old girls health tests, fact is he hid the truth. In effect he told lies, falsified Vet reports to make her look like she was indeed the best thing to happen to the M.M community and folk bought it. (well why wouldnt they). Sad thing is by doing this he condemned both my old girl and her pups to a life of pain and suffering and all in the name of the big bucks.
My old girl (may she rest in peace) was diagnosed when we got her as suffering from severe spondalocis, hip and elbow dysplasia and was Leishmania positive. Facts which my vet told us the greeder had to know about yet despite this at just over 3 years old she had started having litters of pups for him from her first season aged 9 months and was pregnant again when we took her home.
In total she gave birth 4 times the first time it was to 5 pups, the last time 13, (4 of which died). Now when you consider M.M's are priced around 2500-3000 euros a pup she was in fact nothing but a glorified cash cow to her old owner.
So how did we come into possesion of her, well there is the story.
The greeder who owned her had placed her in kennels and left her there with 2 of her pups whilst he returned to England. He was supposed to have returned within 2 weeks, but 2 months later (having only paid for 2 weeks) he hadnt shown up, neither had he made contact, so the kennels (as they are allowed here to do) claimed the dogs and in the case of the pups sold them off whilst the mum was given to us.
We registered her with the authorities as being ours the moment we got her paperwork. (you have to leave the dogs documentation with the kennels here when you leave them with them) followed by took her straight to the vets. He told us then that she was in pup and that in his opinion she shouldnt be allowed to have them as she would undoubtedly pass on the spondalocis, elbow and hip dysplasia to her pups but also the Leishmania, in effect if she managed somehow to survive the ordeal of birth etc, she wouldnt likely survive raising the pups and the pups would end up as bad off as she was genetically/healthwise. So we had the pups aborted. (we never, ever intended to breed with her anyway) and had her spayed at the same time.
Some 2 months later up rolls her old owner, demanding his prize girl be returned to him, plus her pups and or the money we had made from them.
He got neither our girl or the pups/money however, he did get a flea in his ear.


Some months after we got our old girl we met someone who had bought a pup off her greeder.
They told us how they thought they had gone to a reputable breeder, how having seen the trophies and ribbons our girl had won thought they had bought a pup from a healthy mum etc, etc.
Their dog had spondalocis, elbow and hip dysplasia and was Leishmania positive and wasnt expected to live beyond 5 years of age. They were devastated as were we for them.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:18 AM   #173 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
Well, if you're going to expect any credibility at all, on any subject you're debating, it's best to be cognizant of at least the 101 level basics.

Patchwork is correct, in that only n00bs and BYBs refer to red Dobermans as "chocolate."

Likewise, if you were going to go to a ESS (English Springer Spaniel) message board and start spouting off about how much you knew about that breed and related issues to the breed, you'd instantly mark yourself as a rank novice by calling your dog "chocolate and white," rather than "liver and white."
Whilst I defer to your obvious greater knowledge regards Dobermans I would like to say, that here in Spain a Dobe of Toby's colour is either referred to as being 'Brown which in Spanish translates to Marron', as well as on occasion it can be described as to being 'Chocolate which is Chocolata.'

They are never described as being RED!

Why this is the case I do not know, it just happens to be the way it is.

Oh, and the tan colouring is referred to as 'Fuego' here, which as you guys will know is 'Fire' in English.

Besides, I think calling ones Dobe Chocolate makes them sound even scrumier than they would do if you called them brown.

Mmmmm! Chocolate!
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:29 AM   #174 (permalink)
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So your telling me that Dobermans don't have the color "Chocolate and Tan"? Last time I checked they did.
I would be interested in seeing where you checked (honestly, not being snarky here). I have been involved with this breed since 1968 and to the best of my knowledge in the U.S. they are (and always have been) referred to as Red and in Europe, referred to as Brown.

I do know there are some BYB's that refer to them as Chocolates (they also refer to albinos as Creams), that really does tell you, without question, that you are dealing with somebody that knows very little about our breed.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:41 AM   #175 (permalink)
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