DoberDad90

Also another question I have...

If the dog is already born into this world, it is wrong of me to take a dog that has not been health tested over a dog that cost 3-4 times as much and has a high probability of not having the same connection as the dog I got did?

So you would rather not take a dog and leave it to be put into the pound or death because of something that is not in your control vs a dog still has a chance of having health issues that cost much more?

DoberDad90

I personally apologize for making you feel as if any of this was at you. You have been very respectful to me, and I do not mean to disrespect you in anyway.

As far as putting all of these certain people in a group, I have been attack by a group of about 5 people trying to catch me in some sort of loophole or fault in my opinion. I think at this point in time I have every right to feel the way I do at them, all because of me not believing what they do, for different reasons.

The reality of it all is the fact that the dogs are still in the world, and they need good homes to live their life however that may be, and to deny them that chance is very sad and disheartening.

Rosemary

Taking a leaf out of PWR's book, my responses are in blue.

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PatchworkRobot

I don't want to shake your core beliefs and I"m not saying this to be rude...
When I worked in doggy daycare I had handfuls upon handfuls of dogs come and sit into my lap and love me. They would want nothing but to be with me and they would, sometimes, bark at the other dogs who tried to get near me. Sure, sometimes it was cute. THEN another employee would walk into the room and OHEMGEE that person was the new "it" person for that dog. Then that dog would leave with it's owner and come back another day and I"d mean nothing to them.

I'm glad that you feel connected to your puppy and I hope that, that feeling never fades because it's a wonderful one. Still, you cannot say that that puppy chose you over anybody else. Did you visit hundreds of puppies and this was the only one that paid you any mind?

Frankly, if the "sitting on your lap and barking at anything that approaches" behavior that you explained continues as this dog ages I'd get worried and I would take the dog to a behaviorist and/or trainer. It is a possessive behavior that can become dangerous.


To answer your question, I would not buy the puppy. Now, if it was offered to me for free, I would take the puppy (or even the whole litter) and foster it/them for a rescue until good homes were found. I will not support and reward the person with my money for breeding in a way that I don't agree with. I will hope that the puppy ends up in a breed specific rescue and no, that won't always be the case but I cannot save every dog - nobody can. I will not be a person who adds fuel to the fire. If my not buying a BYB puppy means that the puppy may stay with them longer and they rethink the worth of breeding than I have done good.

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AlyssaN

Your Higher Education.

The College Thread

There you go, no need to be mean. Please refrain from being rude and keep to this forum for a bit. It won't take long to realize why a bunch of people have the same opinion.

ZeldaRules

-arm and a leg, +good, well-informed, educated, stable home.

The shelters can't keep up with the BYB dogs flying off the shelves!

Not as sad as it is to see someone so delusional and uneducated about responsible breeding practices when we keep throwing the facts out there in plain sight. I mean, literally, dogs are dying for you to open your eyes to the problem you won't face.


No one can guarantee genetics, no one is arguing with you on that. There is a major difference though between breeders who genetically health test to learn about the lines they are breeding and how to improve their health and longevity versus breeders that perpetuate health problems that plague the breed.

Sometimes I wonder why we do spin our wheels and free time trying to get facts through thick skulls like yours. Now is one of those times.

DoberDad90

This is in response to our conversation on the last quote.

You-The members of this forum are very passionate about their breed of choice - that's the reason that this forum exists. The members have come to their opinions and conclusions through their own means, not because it was bashed into them.

Me- I don't doubt the passion of any of the posters in this forum, but it is scientifically proven that if you see something enough and are around it enough, you are much more prone to believe it after such time.


You- Not something I've seen. 99% of the time the "reputable" breeders have wait lists and their litters spoken for before they hit the ground. I've seen many BYB's however, and I"ve not seen this in "reputable" breeders, lowering the prices weekly as their 16+ week old puppies age.

Me- It seems as if we have had many different experiences, which I do not fault either of us for, and could be a reason why we have conflict opinions.
I think it could also be the different regions of the country we are in, at least from past experiences, I have come to that conclusion a few times.


You- Don't you do this also?

Me- To a certain extent, although, in my defense, I go off of what I see in shelters and what I hear from other rescues and sources. It is a sad reality, but humanity has made things almost unchangeable for the breeding issues you speak of.

You- Is it really so bad to want to increase the ridiculously short life-span of this breed? Is it really so bad to want to figure out and stop the reasons that dogs drop dead too early at the ages of 4, 5, and 6?

Me- I do not see an issue with that what so ever, but to group all BYB into that category of the cause is not right.


You- Yes, but the overall point is (and I mentioned this in my other posts) is that you have better chances at health with breeders who are health testing. The same goes with humans who go through genetic testing. People do that and some do decide not to reproduce based on the results.

Me- With humans and also animals it comes down to free will and the reality of it is, we as the human race can't control ourselves, why are we trying to control another species? Same argument can be made for America, but we won't get into that.


You- Now now, this is just hurtful...

Me- Once again, I did not mean that for you, but I do mean it for some of the others.

ZeldaRules

THIS mentality is why there are so many that need homes. You are a BYB's wet dream. They bank on playing your sympathy card and you keep them in business. If you "save" one puppy, that just gives them more money and more space to put another in its place!

GingerGunlock

Actually, we frequently do test humans for diseases. Or disorders, anyway That's typically why a pregnant woman will have an amnio done, for genetic disorders. Of course, this is by choice, and what a woman/couple does with that information is also their choice, and that choice is frequently based on perceived/projected quality of life.

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PatchworkRobot

Yes, separate experiences are probably playing into our difference of opinion. Please keep in mind that many of the members of this forum - the vocal ones that you are dealing with (and some you haven't' been so lucky to hear from) give their free time and spare money to rescue for this breed and dogs in general. If you spend enough time here, and I hope you do, you will see that what I"m speaking is the truth.

ZeldaRules, for example, has been in rescue for years and has seen many of the horrors from the Texas BYBs first hand.




Last, while I understand where your thoughts are coming from about controlling another species, this breed, and many others, would not exist without human intervention and control.

This is, of course, an extreme but if you left the dog population simply to the dogs, many dogs would die off in one winter and, eventually, cease to exist.

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ZeldaRules

George comes to mind


Our Newest Rescue..

PatchworkRobot

Oh George... One of many who, sadly, despite the best efforts, don't make it.
I lit a candle for him when his death was announced but I think I'll light another tonight.

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Minichunks

I just wanted to offer my 2cents. Doberdad, I understand your feelings toward this forum. When I first joined and started reading, i thought the attitude toward everyone who wasn't right in line with the way other members felt was pretty negative. What I have come to realize is that everyone here is very passionate about these dogs, and just want what is best for them. I don't see how you can say that a breeder who's litters are spoken for before the bitch has even been bred is contributing to overpopulation. It's mills and bybs that keep pet stores and online dog purchasing stocked with pups. Where do you suppose the dogs who aren't purchased go? I understand you have the right to your own opinion, but how can you argue with fact? Needless to say, I have come to appreciate most of the members here, and am currently on a waiting list to buy my pup from a breeder who is NOT contributing to the overpopulation problem. You should stick around and try to see as I have, that this is a great educational tool to Doberman owners, regardless of where you got your dog.

Dave

ZeldaRules

It's really sad because the woman that was going to adopt him eventually adopted another red boy that came through our rescue. When I go visit her at her shop and she is talking about her dobe, she calls him "George" every now and then and does't even realize it. George really left paw prints on our very core. You just don't forget those cases.

This is why I fight so adamantly for what is right and ethical regarding these breeds. No dog should ever have to end up with George's fate.

DobbieLovie

OK my story about BYB's:

4 years ago, I bought a female schnauzer from a petstore, I had no idea what BYB's where, and I obviously did this in complete ignorance, temperament wise she was great, best dog I've ever owned, health wise.....last summer after spending the whole day at the park with her while having a picnic, we came back home and soon after noticed a very fishy smell, we looked aorund for the source and there was a big red puddle, we thought she had thrown up and I got worried right away because she didn't eat anything of that color, and it was A LOT, so I brought her to the emergency clinic right away, on our way we had to do a few stops only to realize that she hadnt thrown up, it was diarrhea and it was getting more and more like blood every time, anyways long story short, she bled to death, it took 15 hours for hemorragic gastroenteritis to take the life of a "healthy" young 3 and a half year old schnauzer, she hadnt swallowed any foreign objects, she didnt ingest any chemicals, it was an infection that got triggered and her immune system was just too weak to fight it, this was a dog that had NEVER been sick, and this bacteria normally takes 24 to 48 hrs to take a dog's life IF left untreated, which wasn't the case, within 2 hours she WAS treated, and the survival rate with treatment is 85% I can't even begin to tell you how heartbreaking it was for my husband, my kids and I, I had NEVER seen my husband cry, he is a very strong man, and my rock. I mean seeing in retrospect I cannot regret having her in my life, she was the best dog I've ever had, but I do realize all this pain could've been avoided if I would've been educated about BYB's. Now my little Wallace is also from a petshop, and I can't even begin to tell you how scared I am all the time thinking that something could take him from us before time, again, we got him in ignorance because I only heard about BYB's when I encountered this forum after Dot(the schnauzer) died, since I had my heart completely set on another female, but I wanted another breed, so I researched the most trainables breeds and then fell inlove with dobes.

Now my 2 dobes are both rescues, so I know that no matter who bred them I'm giving them a better life than the one they were bound to have, also they werent fixed when I got them, so I can only imagine where they would've ended up being. I've seen thousands of videos on puppy mill rescues, byb's, dog fights, euthanasia, etc, I can tell you that every time I watch one I cry and cry and cry. I do volunteer work as well at a shelter, and it was also after reading and becoming a member of the forum, I just started not too long ago, but still I do feel very proud of it .

So for whoever is saying that ppl here are bashing, although sometimes I dont agree with everything its said here, in this case its just too damn obvious to ignore, BYB's are scum, if you know it, and still support it...shame on you, you might think you are rescuing a puppy, but what about all the other ones YOU didnt get from the litter? do they all have good FOREVER homes??...Although non of my dogs are from breeders I have friends with dogs from reputable breeders, and I can tell you that those breeders offer you life long support, and even when you are not able to take care of the dog for whatever reason, they take their dog back!!!! which obviously you cannot say from a BYB, they want your money, and the dog out of there to make more room for the new ones....

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Jazi

Zelda, I missed George's thread, but I'm sitting here typing through tears over it. I have NEVER seen a dog so thin, not even in greyhound rescue pictures that pop my way every once in a while. If I had a candle to light for him, I would do so tonight. Rest in peace baby boy, your journey's come to a close.

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prairiefire

I do not have to sacrifice the canine species as a whole just to love one dog. It's like a person who loves all children, but have a different love for their own children. It's no less love, just a different kind.

And if any human was the poster daughter for sterilization it would be the "woman" I bought Shania from. Maybe, just maybe, her son wouldn't now be sitting in prison if social services had done something to help her kid when he was younger and the reports where made.

Burns

It honestly blows my mind that you can't see how much of a hypocrite you are.

Apparently its a "do as I say, not as I do" thing when you talk to people? Do you tell them you knowingly bought (not rescued) a puppy from a BYB, and then turn around and tell them they should get educated and not do it themselves?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being serious, because you are making no sense at all.

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prairiefire

The connection with your dog has nothing to do with where you get it and what kind of testing was done by the breeder. The connection comes from bonding with your dog. My Lucky, the one with nerve issues, was my heart dog and probably the only reason I finished high school when the verbal and physical assaults got bad and all my family got was the "kids will be kids" speech. I lost her just over 6 years ago. Her ashes are sitting above my desk and I still cry because I miss her so much.

Now, if the BYB dog is already born and if it's not sold it's going to end up in a shelter go down to the shelter and tell them you are looking for a "insert breed + age range". When that puppy gets dumped by its BYB who can no longer turn a profit on it and its pooping and eating too much then the shelter can call you and that puppy may not spend more than a few hours at the shelter. This way, you can be part of the solution (preventing the death of a dog) without being part of the problem (rewarding the BYB with money to finance further breeding). This way you get the same dog and the BYB may think twice about breeding another litter if he couldn't sell the last one (our SPCA even charges people money to dump their dogs so that is another expense the BYBs in the area and more incentive to stop breeding).

DoberDad90

Although I do get where all you are coming from, my main issue still is this:

Regardless of if you do or don't support BYBs, they will always be around. I think it is great that so many of you are passionate about eliminating that all together and bettering the breed.

With that being said, I don't find it very realistic, especially with the state the economy is in, and how America is, eliminating BYBs is not very obtainable and are going to be around as long as America exists, and that's the sad truth.

Not every person can afford to spend that money on a dog, and some just refuse to pay that much for a dog, which in my eyes, if true breeders are this passionate about this, then they may want to lower prices and find ways to make this option more attractive to the general public.

RedFawnRising

This thread makes both my head and my heart hurt.

Yes. Yes, I would leave that dog. Only, it's almost always a PUPPY, isn't it, not a dog?

And if it crosses your mind for one millisecond that I'd enjoy leaving that puppy, just wipe that thought right out.

It would kill my soul, to look at an animal in horrible conditions, and walk away, but if anything I did caused that person to have more incentive to continue the abuse...then that would kill my soul even more.

It's clearly about saving money, for you.

It's about saving more lives, for me. The big picture, not the short-term instant gratification.

Phoenix, too.

I don't have a pic of him on this computer, but he only weighed 37 pounds when pulled from the shelter. He's at a healthy weight now, at 88 pounds.

Probably only two to three years old, blinded permanently because someone hit him in the head so hard they detached both of his retinas.

Bite marks all over him, one into the carpal joint on his left front leg, with massive infection, from, presumably, being used as a bait dog.

Gee, I wonder if his breeder knows where he is now? I wonder if they feel proud of the screening they did on that puppy buyer?

I wonder if they feel they did a stellar job following up on Phoenix, to make sure he was safe and well-cared-for, his whole life?

And gosh, I am just sure they have a bigfatcheck waiting to send to all of us who dug into our own damn broke wallets, to pay for his very expen$ive rehabilitation.

It's one of the things I deal least well with in this world--total illogic.

I just cannot handle it.

I have a few last questions:

Why is it always puppies BYB supporters feel that "connection" with?

Why can't it ever be a shelter dog? Or even puppies stuck in a shelter?

Why does it seem so often that it's either some "bad-ass breed" that these types are attracted to, or else some parody of a dog that's a "micro-teacup Shorkie-poo"?

All of you folks talking about how awesome you are, for "saving" and "rescuing" puppies from BYBs, who among you will step up and pay to rehab Acorn?

Who feels a "connection" with this sweet soul, who is one of the nicest, best-behaved dogs I've ever had in my house? Who is just dying to please a human?

Because, I'm over my limit now, and so are all my friends--we have housefuls of animals that BYBs produced, and never followed up on.








So, there you go. Since this week we seem to have an influx of attendees of BYBsRockCon posting here, maybe one of you will step up and actually rescue this very nice purebred dog, who doesn't at all deserve to be homeless.

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the_discowhore

I think you're right - BYBs will never be totally eliminated, but I absolutely don't think that reputable breeders should be making their puppies more accessible. There are soooo many USELESS pet owners out there that I wouldn't give a fish, let alone a puppy! Less people should be buying dogs... bring in licensing for pet ownership is what I say.

Oh and $1,000-$2,000 is NOT that expensive people, FFS, that's how much a TV or a fridge costs LOL can't believe people won't pay that for a companion they plan on having around for another 12 years. You can't even get an old dunger of a car for the price of a dog.

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greenkouki

If you can't afford to purchase from a quality breeder an adoption fee from a shelter or breed rescue is $50-400.

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the_discowhore

Or you know, free to good home puppies? There will always be accident litters like Elsie's was, and there is no reason to pay someone for their accident!

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RedFawnRising

Heck, it's $17 bucks, some of the shelters near me. And that includes license and rabies vaccine.

And--you get to feel a connection with an animal that is behind chainlink, and only about 60 feet--and one bout of sniffles or diarrhea, or the next litter of "stray puppies" that need that run--from the euth room and incinerator.

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