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Old 12-02-2012, 09:02 PM   #51 (permalink)
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While I wasn't the one who purchased Deacon from a byb (I got him at 2 yrs old from a rescue), he is definitely the product of a byb. I actually got to talk to his original owner, and Deacon's story is this: An uninformed guy decides to purchase 2 male littermates to guard his yard. It was obvious that this man did ZERO research on the breed, and the stupid greeder of course sold the man 2 male dobies. The dogs were thrown in his backyard for 2 years unaltered, with no training, no excerise, and little human contact. To no surprise, they started fighting. My boy was definitely the chew toy and his vet records show 5 different times that he had to come in for suturing lacerations. The man finally decides that he has to do what's best for the dogs and surrenders one to the rescue. While Deacon is affectionate with people and great with other dogs, he had tons of problems. The dog had never been outside of his yard other than his few vet trips, so new experiencs and the sight of a leash scared him stiff...literally. I had to undo 2 years of NO work and socialization. Thank God these dogs are resilient and so smart because Deacon is a great dog now (only 7 months later), but it still hacks me off that he missed out on living a great life for his first 2 years, and he will likely have some issues that I can never fix because of his beginnings...and who is to thank for all of this: A STUPID BYB...aka greeder! I am all about either purchasing from a reputable breeder or adopting from a reputable rescue for reasons just like Deacon's story and all of the other ones that I have read on here.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:05 PM   #52 (permalink)
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While I wasn't the one who purchased Deacon from a byb (I got him at 2 yrs old from a rescue), he is definitely the product of a byb. I actually got to talk to his original owner, and Deacon's story is this: An uninformed guy decides to purchase 2 male littermates to guard his yard. It was obvious that this man did ZERO research on the breed, and the stupid greeder of course sold the man 2 male dobies. The dogs were thrown in his backyard for 2 years unaltered, with no training, no excerise, and little human contact. To no surprise, they started fighting. My boy was definitely the chew toy and his vet records show 5 different times that he had to come in for suturing lacerations. The man finally decides that he has to do what's best for the dogs and surrenders one to the rescue. While Deacon is affectionate with people and great with other dogs, he had tons of problems. The dog had never been outside of his yard other than his few vet trips, so new experiencs and the sight of a leash scared him stiff...literally. I had to undo 2 years of NO work and socialization. Thank God these dogs are resilient and so smart because Deacon is a great dog now (only 7 months later), but it still hacks me off that he missed out on living a great life for his first 2 years, and he will likely have some issues that I can never fix because of his beginnings...and who is to thank for all of this: A STUPID BYB...aka greeder! I am all about either purchasing from a reputable breeder or adopting from a reputable rescue for reasons just like Deacon's story and all of the other ones that I have read on here.
Yet Deacons issues stem from his owner, not the breeder. You can't blame others for your problems.


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Old 12-02-2012, 09:10 PM   #53 (permalink)
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You are so wrong. Where do you get this ****? I have 3 dogs from BYBs, all of which have been better and healthier dogs than ones I have spent thousands on. Just because they get a stupid test doesn't mean ****. My BYB dogs came from better environments than did the expensive dogs. These breeders may be I proving the breed, yes I agree. But they Are still adding to the overpopulation of unwanted animals. Clear and simple.


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Seriously? Reputable breeders have waiting lists for people who want their puppies, obviously NOT unwanted. Also, they are not the dogs FLOODING pounds and rescue shelters. Those are the BYB dogs. Reputable breeders do everything they can to ensure their dogs find forever homes. They also require the owners to return the dog if circumstances change.


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Old 12-02-2012, 09:14 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Yet Deacons issues stem from his owner, not the breeder. You can't blame others for your problems.


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You are right about that...his original owner is at fault for this too. As stated in the beginning, the owner didn't do his research before getting a doberman. But a good, reputable breeder would never sell someone male littermates because same sex and littermate aggression is a known problem! And I don't see how I am blaming others for my problems being that I wasn't the dog's original owner...he's my problem now, but he is a better dog now that I have him and have been responsible in training him and socializing him!
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:17 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Ban me for life, if you will, I rescued Nubis from a BYB (and yes I know better) and I am expressing this, while executing my freedom of speech. If I could have rescued from a Dobe Rescue I would have, but that was not possible at the time.
I might not get the max life epectancy out of him, possibly healthy issues, possibly aggressive/tempermant problems, huge financial losses...etc.. but those are the chances I take in life. But no matter what faith deals me, I know and Nubis knows, he is and will always be treated like a Prince, cuz thats how i roll when it comes to animals, I have no kids and my pets are it. I do not like to be trashed into the same pile as uneducated, cheap and ignorant ppl that buy from a byb. As I said before, and the same as before my last infraction, I DO NOT SUPPORT BYB'ers,,, but some responsible ppl have a right to rescue a dobe from one.
People like you are, in my opinion, worse than those who don't see a problem with supporting backyard breeders. You know what you are doing is wrong, so why do you do it? Do you like seeing our breed get ruined? If you don't want to spend the money, save a life and rescue. If the breeder can't sell puppies and has to lower prices, and they keep lowering and lowering eventually they will quit because they won't be making a profit. I don't consider buying a puppy from a BYBer taking a chance, that's making an idiotic desicion.

By the way YOU DID NOT RESCUE HIM. You paid the breeder to continue producing dogs who are not top quality and have no reason to be bred.

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Old 12-02-2012, 09:17 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Yet Deacons issues stem from his owner, not the breeder. You can't blame others for your problems.


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Umm, yeah, they do stem from his breeder. A good breeder wouldn't have sold to male littermates to the first idiot willing to plunk down the money.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:17 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I rescued Nubis from a BYB (and yes I know better)
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Originally Posted by Nubis'sDad View Post
I DO NOT SUPPORT BYB'ers,,,
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Originally Posted by Nubis'sDad View Post
I do not like to be trashed into the same pile as uneducated, cheap and ignorant ppl that buy from a byb.
You completely contradicted yourself within your own post.

First off, you didn't "rescue" him. You knowingly purchased him from a BYB who purposely bred him. Rescuing a dog means you adopted him from a shelter or rescue. Which you did not do.

Secondly, yes you do support BYBs if you knew better and *still* purchased a dog from one. Irresponsible. Plain and simple.

And thirdly, taking this into account, you fall into the exact category you mentioned. Sad but true.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:19 PM   #58 (permalink)
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But they Are still adding to the overpopulation of unwanted animals.
Not nearly as much as the people that don't care for their dogs and all they see are $$$$$$$$$....

Someone needs to do some real research, but like most have said before me. This advice is falling on deaf/ignorant ears.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:21 PM   #59 (permalink)
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You are so wrong. Where do you get this ****? I have 3 dogs from BYBs, all of which have been better and healthier dogs than ones I have spent thousands on. Just because they get a stupid test doesn't mean ****. My BYB dogs came from better environments than did the expensive dogs. These breeders may be I proving the breed, yes I agree. But they Are still adding to the overpopulation of unwanted animals. Clear and simple.
Take time to know what you're running your maw about before you insert your hoof.

Reputable breeders have waiting lists. They do NOT add to the overpopulation. On the contrary they sell a puppy with a limited registration or a spay/neuter contract bybs do NOT do this unless you ply them with a few hundred dollars more. Bybs are the bane of the dog world. If you paid "thousands" and got problem dogs than I suggest you did NOT go to a reputable breeder because you don't know what one is. Do your homework before posting drivel.

Whom did you get your expensive dogs from?? Name the breeder. You put this out there as fact now BACK IT UP!
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:22 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Yes and I don't care what others think. I don't go around bashing you because you buy ridiculously priced animals and support the overbreeding and population of dogs. Just because your dog costs more money doesn't mean that "breeder" isn't adding to the same problem. Think about it. You are the pot calling the kettle black.
i've never discussed the price i paid for my dog. you don't know where i got my dog. he could be a rescue. he could be from a breeder. instead, you get butthurt because i call you out on being part of the problem. you're part of the reason SO MANY of these dogs end up tortured/starved/abused/killed in shelters because people don't want them. congratulations, you've contributed to the wrongful death of likely many dogs.

chew on that for awhile.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:22 PM   #61 (permalink)
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you completely contradicted yourself within your own post.

First off, you didn't "rescue" him. You knowingly purchased him from a byb who purposely bred him. Rescuing a dog means you adopted him from a shelter or rescue. Which you did not do.

Secondly, yes you do support bybs if you knew better and *still* purchased a dog from one. Irresponsible. Plain and simple.

And thirdly, taking this into account, you fall into the exact category you mentioned. Sad but true.
this!!!
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:24 PM   #62 (permalink)
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RFR this is the best quote ever.

My story starts in 1983 and stars my amazing mother and me at 12 years old. I wanted a dobie and had wanted a dog of my own for some time. I wanted to show and wanted to do obedience and basically wanted to do everything.

My next door neighbor had a dobe bitch and a friend who was always over with her show dobes.

My mother told me to do the research and make the calls. She didn't say a word when I was looking in the newspaper and calling every sort of BYBer. She even took me to look at pups. Of course, I fell in love each and every trip and my mother drove a very upset 12 y/o girl home each time.

Then we started going to shows. We looked at dogs and spoke to breeders. My mother, God bless her, had been doing her own research. (she came from a dog show family) We arranged to meet a breeder who had one black bitch left from her litter.

The drive down to San Diego to the breeder's from our house was 4 hours. My mother asked me if I could see the difference in the dogs we saw at the shows and the awful condition, coats, health of the BYB pups. She wanted me to "get" why we could not support those people even if it meant leaving pups in those conditions.

We arrived at the breeder's home and as we came in the breeder warned us that the pup was a bit shy and may take a while to warm up. I sat on the couch and she let the pup inside. One happy, wiggling dober-rocket came flying in, jumped on the couch behind me , kissed my ear and plopped her head on my lap. She was sleek, and lovely and picked me for her kid in that moment.

It took me 20 years to really figure out why my mother tormented me like that. (at least that's how that tough love felt at the time) I recently thanked my mother for that lifelong lesson.

I sit here now just having posted the ears of a new girl I have yet to introduce. (Soon! w lots of pics)

I wonder how differently things would have turned out for me had I picked some $200 pup from the Recycler (they still have that in So Cal?) back then.

Oh, a few years after buying my first Heart Dobe, we got a rescue. An actual rescue. So Cal Dobe Rescue had notified us that there were 20 dobies in the Chatsworth Shelter. (a seizure and a long court case, these dogs had been there a year) We went down and came home with Rambo, he was a year old and had been raised in that hell hole. He was only with us 6 years, but he was happy and loved.

Where they come from matters folks. Apparently this is BYB support week.

~Bev~
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:32 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Yet Deacons issues stem from his owner, not the breeder. You can't blame others for your problems.


This is where you miss the point. The problem is that Deacon was the product of a byb who sold him to another idiot. Can you grasp that??
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:00 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I understand why & how people fall in love with puppies & buy from a backyard breeder, believing that they are saving the puppy from a life of grief. (btw, the breeder that claimed he had a guard dog company ready to buy his puppies probably lied.) I think that most people here understand how that happens. A lot of them hope that with education, it won't happen again.

The problem is not THAT specific puppy. The problem is the byb getting money & incentive to do it again. The problem is lack of temperment, or conformation, or health - and more puppies in the doberman population that can continue the negative trend. The problem is litters & litters of puppies & bad or weak genetics continuing on in the breed.

(I got turned down by local rescues because I don't have a fenced yard. I have a kijiji dog (similar to craigslist) & she's wonderful. She has an awesome crop so I wonder about the breeder, but the previous owner's vet is listed as the original microchip owner & most likely she's a byb. If I were to get another doberman, I think I'd have more luck now because of contacts in the community, but for my first, I was extremely lucky.)

Some byb dogs are going to be our best friends - but if possible, wait for the breeder to run short of cash, dump the puppies with a rescue & get them then.
Kate
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:39 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Eqstrnathlete View Post
Yet Deacons issues stem from his owner, not the breeder. You can't blame others for your problems.


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All educated taxpayers blame folks like you, for their problems of having to finance millions of euthanasias at municipal and county shelters, every single year.

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This topic is like the "War on Drugs"
but nobody is going to answer, who are the ppl that are going to buy byb pups or should they just fester away and die at the byb breeders?
Shame on ppl, that believe in supply and demand will solve the answer. That answer is the same thought process to the War on Drugs and has been prooving useless for decades.
Education, Laws and compassionate ppl solve social issues not ppl that turn a blind eye,

Ban me for life, if you will, I rescued Nubis from a BYB (and yes I know better) and I am expressing this, while executing my freedom of speech. If I could have rescued from a Dobe Rescue I would have, but that was not possible at the time.
I might not get the max life epectancy out of him, possibly healthy issues, possibly aggressive/tempermant problems, huge financial losses...etc.. but those are the chances I take in life. But no matter what faith deals me, I know and Nubis knows, he is and will always be treated like a Prince, cuz thats how i roll when it comes to animals, I have no kids and my pets are it. I do not like to be trashed into the same pile as uneducated, cheap and ignorant ppl that buy from a byb. As I said before, and the same as before my last infraction, I DO NOT SUPPORT BYB'ers,,, but some responsible ppl have a right to rescue a dobe from one.

I'm so disappointed in you.

No idea if that matters one whit to you, or not, but I so am.

On another note, as a rescue person, I'm feeling pretty defeated lately.

I try to protect myself from the worst of the onslaught of public stupidity and selfishness, just to keep my energy up, to try to help the next one that comes along needing saving...but, damn.

Just...damn.
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:48 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Many don't get it. Never will. This isn't the forum for them.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:44 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Question : How do you eat an elephant ?

Answer: In small bites

How the uk are tackling puppy farming. It's small steps but it will be banned in this country before long.

http://www.epupz.co.uk/puppyfarm.asp

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/b/batteryfarmeddogs/

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15622976

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hopeuk/info.htm

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5145


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Old 12-03-2012, 02:43 AM   #68 (permalink)
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I am getting Bronson neutered for just that reason, even though it would NEVER happen. I do not want him bred and if something should ever happen to me, I cant guarentee the other guardian will be as responsible
Just curious...where in Maryland did you meet these people at a PetSmart?
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:58 AM   #69 (permalink)
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And thirdly, taking this into account, you fall into the exact category you mentioned. Sad but true.
I'm sorry but this to me is worse even then that because he KNEW better. Just someone who doesn't care about being an ethical consumer. People can make mistakes, my husband did when he got Whiskey. What sets him apart is that now, after being educated by me (loudly... several times), he know understands why it's so important to buy ethically or rescue.

This just smacks of the "I want it now" mentality that I cannot stand. You couldn't adopt from a rescue... wonder why? Housing? Fencing? I can understand that but that is NO excuse to support a byb.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:03 AM   #70 (permalink)
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I'm sorry but this to me is worse even then that because he KNEW better. Just someone who doesn't care about being an ethical consumer. People can make mistakes, my husband did when he got Whiskey. What sets him apart is that now, after being educated by me (loudly... several times), he know understands why it's so important to buy ethically or rescue.
Yeah exactly, I agree. I don't blame the people who, for one reason or another, just didn't know better the first time. I actually commend them for accepting what has been done, but then educating themselves afterwards and making the decision never to support a BYB again.

But its just awful when people who know better still do it anyway because they justify it to themselves in some sick, twisted way that makes it ok.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:37 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Eqstrnathlete View Post
Yet Deacons issues stem from his owner, not the breeder. You can't blame others for your problems.


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The BYB is the root of the problem. Thanks for playing.
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:32 AM   #72 (permalink)
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I chose to buy from breeder, pay a little more and have my dog have the very best shot at being what I wanted The best chance to have a great healthy life. I know it is sometimes a crap shot But.....I think I stacked the deck in my dogs favor for doing so.
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:55 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Quote:
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You are so wrong. Where do you get this ****? I have 3 dogs from BYBs, all of which have been better and healthier dogs than ones I have spent thousands on. Just because they get a stupid test doesn't mean ****. My BYB dogs came from better environments than did the expensive dogs. These breeders may be I proving the breed, yes I agree. But they Are still adding to the overpopulation of unwanted animals. Clear and simple.


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They are not unwanted pets if the litter is fully reserved with homes lined up prior to them being old enough to leave.

Also not sure how your byb came from a better environment? Most reputable breeders have the puppies born and raised in their house and even bedroom.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:53 AM   #74 (permalink)
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We bought Brinks from a BYB. I have said many times on here that I mistakenly thought that AKC meant something more than it does, and that is the truth. Growing up, my family had two labs, one from a breeder, one rescued. I remember when looking for the one from a breeder that my parents only wanted AKC and, now in hindsight, I remember that they did also look for health testing, specifically hips and elbows.

When we decided on a dobe, we did lots of research on temperament, exercise requirements, breed standards, etc. What I failed to research was more information about health and the testing that can be done for problems. Being in the medical field, I should have done better. Anyways, we found out about Brinks from a coworker. His friend had a litter. They had a website (which is now taken down.) There were plenty of pictures of the pups, mom and dad. The words AKC and champion bloodlines were thrown around. The website said the pups were not Z factored dogs. Pictures of past pups from a 2010 litter were on there. And needless to say, we bit. We went to see the pups, thinking that they were 8 weeks old and ready to go. We were greeted by 10 little pups and while we had originally been interested in the black or red pups in the litter, the only little blue pup crawled into my husbands lap. That was the end of that. As we were walking out the door, we asked her birthday. Only halfway home did we realize that our pup was a few days shy of 7 weeks. Her AKC papers arrived in the mail a few weeks later, not only are there no champions anywhere on a 3 gen pedigree but Brinks is a Z factor pup (dad was a carrier.) I cried when I saw the papers because it was just another sign of how wrong all of this went. We never had any intention of breeding Brinks but Z factor dogs was one of the things I had researched and I thought that I had at least done good finding a litter with no Z factor.

We took her to the vet the next day. And we've been there pretty much every week since with infections after infections. Food allergies and sensitivities. Worms. And of course all her shots, as the only thing she had done prior to coming home was tail and dewclaws.

She came uncropped so we researched like crazy to find someone who was recommended and we felt comfortable with and then we drove almost 3 hours each way to get her cropped by someone that we considered respectable. We also began socializing immediately, starting with our two retired greyhounds (who both have had several litters) and working our way out into the world as her shots were completed. At 10 weeks, she started OB class. At 12 weeks, she started agility class. We put her on raw food when no dog food would work with all her allergies and sensitivities. We have done everything we can do to right by Brinks, now that we have her.

I know NOW that we should have done more research BEFORE. A great dane will hopefully be our next dog in about two years. Because of what we learned with Brinks we have ALREADY begun researching breeders that show and health test and we are prepared to be put on a lengthy waiting list to get what we want.

I am not going to lie and say I didn't come across websites for what I now know are reputable breeders when doing research on the breed. Because I did. What I didn't realize was how much I was going to regret not finding out more about them and their health testing and titling. I can, without a doubt, tell you that we have now spent more than 4 times on Brinks than we most likely would have on a dog from a reputable breeder. If you add the money we spent on Brinks+the money for her crop+money on vet bills+money on food we had to throw away because she's allergic to everything it seems+traveling to the vet to crop and to the vet for all her other problems, you would get a number MUCH larger than any price I've ever seen a reputable breeder charge for a puppy. Lesson learned on our part. And it will be a lifetime lesson. If any dog of ours in the future doesn't come from a rescue, it will be coming from health tested and titled parents.

FWIW, we do still keep in touch with her breeder. They do still have one pup that is now almost 6 months old. They have offered it to us more than once for a song but I've refused and will continue to do so. Also, we fully intend to title Brinks in agility. She is fantastic at it, she loves it, and so do we! I will not, however, ever tell her "breeder" if she does get a title. I don't want them to have any more reason to breed again or to be able to say that their dogs have produced titled dogs.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:59 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Sometimes I think it is a good thing this kind of thread is opened up for all the newbies wanting a Doberman and thinking of going to a BYB.

Toby was from a BYB.
To be honest even the guys who show and win championships with their Dobes here are BYB's because from what I have learnt none of them health test. Neither do they give aftersale support or whatever you wish to call it, and don't give a damn for the most part where the dogs are going. It is simply about making money, plain and simple with this lot. So even the top guys here are nothing but BYB's with ribbons on.
Because it was proving so hard for me to find a decent dog, I turned in the end to a trainer and breeder of Staffordshire Bull Terriers / Pitt Bulls from a city called Lleida whom I had met many moons back to help me in my search. In his role as a dog trainer he travelled the length and breadth of Spain and of course had many contacts when it came to breeders not just in the breeds he was into but others, including Dobermans, (he trains dogs as personal protection animals etc).
He searched for weeks before he found 3 breeders who had litters from which one or two pups might be available around the time I was looking to buying.
On invite he went to see them. The first litter was in Girona, the second in Valancia, and the third in Barcelona.
I had specifically told the trainer (his name is Roberto) that health and temperament were my main concerns. Colour was not high on my agenda ie I had no preference between black or brown, I didnt want a dilute etc. So he discounted another breeder who he found who had fawn Dobes for sale at around the same time.
I was given the choice of 3 males from the 3 seperate litters, 2 of them black and tan and one brown and tan (Toby).
Roberto visited each breeder, saw the pups parents, (breeders here tend to have both parents) saw the conditions the pups were being raised in and then spoke to them at length about the dogs breeding etc, etc.
He came back and said the Black and Tan (negro y fuego) from Girona was a nice pup, but a bit highly strung and that he didnt like the look of the father. The pup was priced at 1500 euros.
The Black and Tan from Barcelona was again a nice enough pup but at 2400 euros he felt it was too expensive considering the parents had not done anything in either showing or working. Plus the mother seemed to be a bit edgy, or as he described it ''nerviosa'.
The Brown and Tan (marron y fuego) was a nice pup, both parents had been shown, admittedly they hadn't done much but both had a nice temperaments and appeared healthy. (nope Toby's breeder didnt health test).
Toby's breeder as most seem to here considered Toby less of a Doberman because he isn't black and tan. Toby was also a bit small, I guess you would call him the runt. So he above all the others was the one he wanted rid of, but I could if I wanted have the black and tan male that he was originally going to keep but on reflection had changed his mind and decided to keep the big female in the litter instead.
Roberto however, liked the red male above all the others and told me he thought he would be perfect for me. So I listened to his advice and went along with it.
However, before I was able to buy Toby, I had to be inspected, by Roberto who had to report to the breeder whether or not he thought I was suitable to own a Doberman.
The breeder wanted to ensure I wasnt going to simply chain Toby up and keep him outside, he wanted to be sure I understood how special Dobermans are, etc, etc.
Luckily Roberto had already checked me out, but did so again and then was able to assure the breeder after showing him photographs of where Toby was going to come live that I was suitable. So he let me have him.
I paid just over 500 euros for my little brown runt, money I consider well spent because I have found my heart dog in the shape of Toby.
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