My dobie and toddler - advice on bites - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

Burns · 11-25-2012, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GingerGunlock

Sorry, Burns, my eye is just drawn to your signature in every thread you post in

Hehe it's ok

Just wanted to clarify, and thanks for having my back

Dobes&Hounds · 11-25-2012, 04:18 PM

I think the suggestion for a basket (greyhound) muzzle for your dog is a good one.
You don't have one area you can gate off for the dog? You have alternatives when you cannot supervise. As for letting them play together? No, I would not allow them to play together even under supervision.
You have already had 2 warnings, how could you live with yourself if your dog disfigured your baby?
If it happens it will be your fault. Period.

Toby'shuman · 11-25-2012, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzybird

Thanks so much for all your advice. I do want to clarify a few things, I know our living situation is not ideal for a doberman and while everyone likes to point out all our failures as dog owners, I still feel giving her a safe and loving home is better than how she might be treated otherwise. I struggle with giving her up for a rescue because we made a commitment to her and I feel like we've failed her. I am absolutely NOT casual about the fact that she is injuring my son, but I am here to ask advice on my dog. I have other people that can help me with my emotional state over my son.

I will state again that the first incident was supervised and I was able to react quickly. However, it happened regardless and I don't know how to prevent that 100% unless I keep them away from each other at all times. I don't know what kind of life that is for my dog.

4Dobes - We've always had to work with her reacting by snapping. She has snapped at us before too and it has been something we've always had to deal with and constantly train her not to do. We have already been to a behaviorist and will be having him come out for a home visit again.

I think what I'm asking is whether we are being unrealistic to expect that she is going to be able to be around a small child. She was great when he was a baby (and not moving), but he moves now - quickly, but not aggressively.

Bolded mine. I think keeping your child and Dobe seperate is a perfect solution. I do not mean you should oust your Dobe from your family life, but to restrict her interaction with your son through the use of babygates. Your Dobe will still be with you, she just cannot get to your son and equally importantly your son cannot get to her. I don't think she will be too bothered about it all. Just as long as you still give your Dobe the loves she deserves.

odiakkoh · 11-25-2012, 04:25 PM

Meh I really don't see what's the big deal with gatehouse's comment.

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donnatoldu2 · 11-25-2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzybird

4Dobes - We've always had to work with her reacting by snapping. She has snapped at us before too and it has been something we've always had to deal with and constantly train her not to do. We have already been to a behaviorist and will be having him come out for a home visit again.

I think what I'm asking is whether we are being unrealistic to expect that she is going to be able to be around a small child. She was great when he was a baby (and not moving), but he moves now - quickly, but not aggressively.

Well to the last question I feel wholeheartedly the answer is that ABSOLUTELY YES you are being unrealistic. The other part of the picture is this dog has had issues all along apparently and your ability to help it has been limited. I don't know exactly how many trainers or what expert help has been sought but to me it has all been unsuccessful and now you have a small person who will pay too high a price for that lack of success.
I get it ..we all want to help/fix these dogs but when it was just the adults there, while I still don't agree with living with a dog that will bite unless I can manage it successfully ..I can see hanging in there trying. When a baby is involved it is an unacceptable situation and I would be concerned that if it was reported it qualifies as a Children`s Aid situation. I would have that dog removed from this situation even if it involved euthanasia and it would be removed today.

SidneyBlue · 11-25-2012, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzybird

Their typical interactions are positive - they will both play bow at each other or chase around the house.

Speaking as a parent, I wouldn't allow the game of "chase" between a Doberman and small child ever.

And yes, I live with young kids and a dobie.

dizzybird · 11-25-2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burns

In response to the OP's response, I don't mean to suggest you are sub-par parents or owners, but I just want to impress on you the gravity of your situation. If you don't completely 100% keep them separated, you are setting yourself up for potential disaster. Which is worse... your dog being separated or your child in the ER with a dog bite to the face?

Hi, i know the situation is very grave. I was curious for advice because everyone i know in my family would say to put her down because no one else will take her knowing she has had problems with biting. It's hard to convince others that warning snaps are different than real bites. Having her for 6 years, I know she is not a vicious dog. I really do believe she had to be tough being a stray and that she has come a long way since we first got her.

dizzybird · 11-25-2012, 05:34 PM

Toby'shuman - Have you or anyone you've known been in that situation and felt that it worked? I'm genuinely curious to know because I really want this to work out. I just don't want to separate her so much from the family.

dizzybird · 11-25-2012, 05:44 PM

I think we are going to start going through the process to look for a new home for her and keep them separated at all times in the meantime. I'm not sure of what our success will be but it's all I can handle to even make that decision for now.

From what I've shared, does anyone think this is (or is near) hopeless for her? Knowing her temperament, I think she's still a great, sweet dog but absolutely has to have an experienced dog owner.

**MeadowCat** · 11-25-2012, 05:50 PM

If you initially adopted her from IL Doberman Rescue Plus, you need to contact them first.

dizzybird · 11-25-2012, 05:56 PM

Unfortunately we live in Maine now so I don't think there is much they will be able to do. Or do you mean just to talk to them?

**MeadowCat** · 11-25-2012, 05:59 PM

Most rescue contracts state that the dog must return to them if you decide to rehome. At the very least, you should be in contact with them so they know what is going on and can advise you about what, if any, their role should be.

Burns · 11-25-2012, 06:25 PM

Good luck with everything, dizzybird. I truly wish you and your family the best. Thanks for not getting defensive and for soaking in the replies. Normally I would not suggest rehoming, but when a small child could potentially be injured, it's something I don't mess around with.

My sister and her husband had a Jack Russell that had shown some signs of aggression, but nothing serious, before they had their first baby. When their son was about a week old, I was over visiting and my sister had the baby in her lap. The dog came over nonchalantly and without warning snapped at the baby's head. Luckily he was at a bad angle and didn't actually hurt him, but there was no second chances for the dog after that. Her husband's parents agreed to take him (otherwise it be was going to a rescue or be euthanized). Whenever the parents have the kids over, the dog is confined upstairs so there is no contact. It's just not worth the risk.

Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.

SidneyBlue · 11-25-2012, 06:37 PM

Here are some thoughts on how I have approached managing an intact male dobe in same household as multiple children of my own, several cousins, and many other young guests.

Give the dog and the toddler each their own space. I use a babygate in the hallway to the children's rooms/playroom. The dog is not allowed in this area of the house EVER. (Remarkably, it also has the cleanest carpet. <g>) Our dog has a crate. When he was younger, we kept two crates, one for sleeping in the bedroom and one for personal space in the kitchen whenever he needed. (I did not allow children to climb in the dog's crate EVER -- although some young guests were tempted.)

We also have a baby gate in the laundry room. Our dog can see us in the kitchen from this space. This is where he eats and hangs if a "new" guest is in the house. I separate children and dogs when either is eating.

At two, I would supervise the child at all times. So - if i moved into another room, the child went with me. This means toys are everywhere - but this only lasts a few years. If the child was napping, I used baby monitors and would shut the door to the bedroom which kept the child "in" and the dog "out."

I don't allow the game of "tug" or "chase." Also - no kids rolling on the floor with the Doberman. No hugging a doberman EVER. A child at age two should understand "no."

The Doberman can also be kept on a leash indoors. You don't necessarily need to hold the leash. But - it provides a good handle so the dog can be grabbed by an adult if necessary. The presence of a leash also seemed to keep my dog calmer.

Really, there shouldn't be much (if any) interaction between the two of them. This can change as the child gets older.

I agree with the other posters about plenty of exercise (for both dogs and active kids!!!!) Although honestly, I'm not sure this is the issue for children/dogs to co-exist as much as setting and enforcing boundaries for everyone.

If I can think of anything else, I'll add. Hope this helps.

gatehouse · 11-25-2012, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DobbieLovie

Is this for real???

I'm sorry I have kids too, and this is just RUDE. I understand your not liking for small children, but we all were small children at some point, even you, so even saying it, sounds extremely rude. Crate the dog OR YOUR CHILD?!

No, it's not RUDE.... I'm saying what my opinion is ---- how is that rude?

While a couple of baby gates might be useful, please do not think that dobe with little regular exercise and the benefit of good prey drive isn't going to jump it to chase the 2 year old who is running by in a blurr.

The safety of the child and the dog likely means that one of them will have to find a new home....wonder which one that will be.....

gatehouse · 11-25-2012, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzybird

I think we are going to start going through the process to look for a new home for her and keep them separated at all times in the meantime. I'm not sure of what our success will be but it's all I can handle to even make that decision for now.

From what I've shared, does anyone think this is (or is near) hopeless for her? Knowing her temperament, I think she's still a great, sweet dog but absolutely has to have an experienced dog owner.

I'm sorry that you have to rehome her, but it is the right decision.

dobies4ever · 11-25-2012, 07:22 PM

I have 2 young kids and a dobe. It is a lot of work to keep them apart or supervised at all times. It's exhausting. I can't wait until they are older and can be trusted to respect his (dog) space. We are teaching them that the dog is off limits, no chasing, no hugging, no pats etc. Eventually they'll get it but until then it's our duty to keep them apart. We owe this to our dog. I want this to be his forever home.

DobbieLovie · 11-25-2012, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatehouse

No, it's not RUDE.... I'm saying what my opinion is ---- how is that rude?

While a couple of baby gates might be useful, please do not think that dobe with little regular exercise and the benefit of good prey drive isn't going to jump it to chase the 2 year old who is running by in a blurr.

The safety of the child and the dog likely means that one of them will have to find a new home....wonder which one that will be.....

The idea is NOT RUDE...the wording is...anyhow, thats also MY OPINION.

gatehouse · 11-25-2012, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DobbieLovie

The idea is NOT RUDE...the wording is...anyhow, thats also MY OPINION.

Sorry for offending you with my wording... but I would much rather offend someone in trying to get my opinion across, than see another dog pts or a child scarred for life, because I was trying to be polite and not offend anyone.

And I'm Irish, since we're stating our background.

RedFawnRising · 11-25-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odiakkoh

Meh I really don't see what's the big deal with gatehouse's comment.

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Yeah, I just took it as somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Then again, I've traveled with other dog show folks for years, and have heard all kinds of kidding around about crating kids and so forth.

I guess we forget sometimes that not everyone will take it as a joke.

And, playpens ARE sort of crates for kiddos

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzybird

Hi, i know the situation is very grave. I was curious for advice because everyone i know in my family would say to put her down because no one else will take her knowing she has had problems with biting. It's hard to convince others that warning snaps are different than real bites. Having her for 6 years, I know she is not a vicious dog. I really do believe she had to be tough being a stray and that she has come a long way since we first got her.

You need to contact IDR+ immediately. I see MC has beaten me to it, but it was the first thing I thought of, reading your initial post.

I applaud you for not leaping to the conclusion your dog is "vicious"; however, she now has at least two level two bites to her credit.

To quantify the degree of severity, Dr. Ian Dunbar, has created the following chart/guide on bite "levels".

Level 1: This bite does not touch the skin. The dog is air biting or snapping.

Level 2: This bite makes contact with the skin, but doesn't break the skin. Pain and bruising may result, but no abrasions will be visible.

Level 3: This bite ranges from a one to three punctures in a single bite with one puncture less than ½ the depth of the eye-tooth (fang) with or without some tearing.

Level 4: The dog is putting great pressure into the bite. 1 to 4 puncture wounds with or without tearing, more than ½ the depth of the eye tooth. This is usually accompanied with bruising and likely to require medical attention. These injuries suggest the dog grabbed and shook what was in its mouth.

Level 5: Multiple level 4 bites. This dog is usually beyond the ability to reason and may feel his/her
life is threatened.

Level 6: The dog has killed.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/1109747

No matter how much of a PITA it is, please prevent any chance of something more serious occurring, until you can find a permanent resolution for the dog, with the guidance of IDR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeadowCat

If you initially adopted her from IL Doberman Rescue Plus, you need to contact them first.

Yup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobies4ever

I have 2 young kids and a dobe. It is a lot of work to keep them apart or supervised at all times. It's exhausting. I can't wait until they are older and can be trusted to respect his (dog) space. We are teaching them that the dog is off limits, no chasing, no hugging, no pats etc. Eventually they'll get it but until then it's our duty to keep them apart. We owe this to our dog. I want this to be his forever home.

The part I bolded: Possibly one of the most awesome points ever made on this forum.

DobbieLovie · 11-25-2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatehouse

Sorry for offending you with my wording... but I would much rather offend someone in trying to get my opinion across, than see another dog pts or a child scarred for life, because I was trying to be polite and not offend anyone.

And I'm Irish, since we're stating our background.

Being a fan or not of children had nothing to do with the thread.... LIKE I MENTIONED MORE TAN ONCE before, I agree with the idea...why would you think that you need to be (in my words) rude to get a point across?? you can make the exact same point without suggesting to crate a kid or saying that you dont like kids...that was absolutely unnecessary.

DobbieLovie · 11-25-2012, 08:24 PM

anyhow....you have YOUR opinion and I have mine, I respect it, and we will have to agree to disagree

RedFawnRising · 11-25-2012, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DobbieLovie

Being a fan or not of children had nothing to do with the thread.... LIKE I MENTIONED MORE TAN ONCE before, I agree with the idea...why would you think that you need to be (in my words) rude to get a point across?? you can make the exact same point without suggesting to crate a kid or saying that you dont like kids...that was absolutely unnecessary.

Dudette.

Go back and re-read her post.

She essentially said even though she's not a huge fan of small children, she doesn't want to see one get hurt.

Sheesh. How horribly controversial of her. I mean, it's like she practically said she hates your kids' guts and wants them off the face of the earth, you know? Not.

Funny that you keep pointing out gatehouse's one comment as off-topic, but then you keep stirring it.

Let it drop, and we can all get back to the OP and her very real and very serious problem with her dog and her child, okey-doke?

DobbieLovie · 11-25-2012, 08:32 PM

I dropped it Dudette I said we would agree to disagree.

thea2003 · 11-25-2012, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DobbieLovie

I COMPLETLY agree on this.... but children DO NOT get crated, how would you ever expect the dobe to give the kid respect and not see him as an inferior or an equal otherwise?....and also wether ppl is "a fan o children" or not is off point and a useless comment.

nevermind i am too slow to the draw. I third contacting IDR.