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Old 11-11-2012, 04:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Jumping disaster and a perfect example of dobes being 'stupidly obedient'

I think this video gives a really good example of why dobermans are stupidly obedient:

OOPS


Poor puppies....... but don't worry no dobermans were seriously hurt during the making of this video!
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:31 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Rofl! They were so focused on you! Cute video.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:57 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Teaching jumping safely would entail one animal going over the jump at one time, period.

Also, you need to change that gate jump so that if they knock a board, it falls easily to the ground.

The solid way you have it set up now is just asking for a dog injury--and a potentially serious one.

One last thing, I would not be jumping them on concrete--horrid for their joints and footing. If you can find some remnant of agility flooring or in-filled artificial turf, and put that on the concrete, that would be much safer for them.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:04 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I'll never understand why when a human obviously makes stupid choices to set an animal up for harm or fail the animal is the one that gets called dumb... If you failed to tighten the bolts enough on a toddlers bicycle and the training wheels fell off before they were ready is the kid then an idiot for not knowing better? Or are you probably an adult with too little foresight and concern for their safety/protection?

Doesn't look like the dogs are "stupidly obedient" at all. Looks like they trust you in spite of your deserving it in this case.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:58 PM   #5 (permalink)
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That poor dog could have seriouy injured him/herself up when falling over the jump like that. Unkind of you for laughing!

I see dogs listening to their owner. Good on them, I guess, but I'm not too impressed otherwise. Poor thing, I hope you checked him/her over after that hit.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:47 PM   #6 (permalink)
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They'll be fine, but thanks for the advice.
I don't always jump them on the slabs and a few won't hurt.
Dogs always jump over stuff which is solid, downed trees, old walls, benches etc.
I've never had any of my dogs have early joint problems . In fact I have never had to take a dog to the vet for physical injuries (apart from Bumpy when Bob tried to kill her) in my life, that's a long time to never injure a dog you know.
Lighten up for vishnu's sake.
Sometimes you people take things far too seriously, neither were bothered by the event so why the hell are you.
For starters that is a jump I know they can clear with ease (shoulder height) so is not high enough to need a knocking board or pole.
By teaching with a solid jump at low heights it teaches them to CLEAR the jump and I bet I can find references to back me up on that.
I do like the agility flooring idea though, but ah well its down the grassy/muddy training area now.
@Patchworkrobot- yes they are fine, which will be why I put as much on the bottom of the post, but thanks for your concern, I'm sorry it was pretty funny, you want to see what these dogs do to each other when they are out running in the field, that collision was nothing to them. I was concerned about Beccas front leg coming over the gate but I saw she was fine by the way she was walking.

Yes it was my fault but that is what I mean by 'stupid obedience' now can I suggest you go light a candle and pray for my soul or something.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:57 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Educated observers don't find wrecks over fences on a cross-country course to be funny, either.

But, there is a certain mentality that thinks it is funny when humans ask an animal to do something, and they then experience pain, fright, a shake in self-confidence, or even get injured.

For those who didn't realize the potential seriousness here, not talking to you, but now you do know.

For Matt, you don't surprise me in the least.

And, if my dogs make an error in judgement, doing things on their own while out hiking or whatever, that's on them. If I ask them to do something, at my direction, I do always make the attempt to make sure reasonable safety precautions are in place.

Go ahead and look for your "back-up" on your theory about solid jumps. Guarantee you Chris Zink won't back you, nor Mecklenburg, nor anyone with half-a-brain who is training jumping skills.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Sometimes you people take things far too seriously, neither were bothered by the event so why the hell are you.
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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
you want to see what these dogs do to each other when they are out running in the field, that collision was nothing to them.
Well no, what concerned us was the fact that you chose to have them collide on purpose, and then called them "stupid" because of it.

Brandy does a lot of nutty things while playing, but I'm not going to purposely push her head into a stool, even when she has already done it by accident herself.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:11 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I'm basically echoing RFR, but as an equestrian (whose been at it for many years) I COMPLETELY disagree with teaching a creature to jump by pitting it against a solid object. That is stupid. I also don't find falls finny in the least. Even at the hunter/jumper show that I was at this weekend... a girl fell and, while the fence was able to come down, she was injured badly.

My dogs go crazy with each other too - they can get pretty rough. If they're playing and one slips or trips or slams into something you can bet your ass that I'm stopping play.immediately to check them over. Do I giggle sometimes? Honestly, sure, though I'm not proud of it and then, again, I check them over immediately. I'm always checking, immediately, even if its the dogs own fault. And I would never put my dog in a situation that I knew could do some serious damage (like a solid panel jump) - same with my horses. I dont want to be at fault foe causing damage to my animals.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I wouldn't be happy having to repeat ask for a "sit" that many times. They were very focused on the food, true, not the cues. (considering I sometimes have a struggle with this with my little chow hound, I can sympathize).
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
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They are clearing it from sitting, that jump is nothing to them.
They suffered no pain, fright, shakes in self confidence or injury so what is your point?
They even continued jumping straight away as you saw in the vid.
My dogs are in good physical condition built up carefully over the last year.
Are you accusing me of doing this on purpose?

Here is one reference for you from typing in jumping, obedience and solid:

Schutzhund-Training.com - Jumps and Walls

Extract:
Quote:
I begin by setting my solid schutzhund jump at the height just above the dogs knee. This height will not tip him over onto his face if he knocks it, but by starting over a solid jump, he learns to clear the jump, since it will not fall if he knocks it. I gradually work up to around shoulder / wither height. At this point I begin working the dog over PVC agility jumps at around 24" for a German Shepherd.
Considering I am only 5'6 and that jump is my knee height, that's a a good bit lower than 2ft.

What serious injury could have occurred here then?
It seems that the worst possible out come occurred and no injury happened.

Why are you talking about wrecks over cross country jumps?
Are you trying to de-rail my thread?

Here's a book for you to read:
Flying Dog Press: The Clothier Natural Jumping Method

but to be honest there is a pretty good chance have probably already read it.

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Old 11-11-2012, 09:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
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They need to be going over a panel jump that will fall apart if hit. No injury to the dog that way. One dog at a time would be the better way and no concrete for a surface.

If you want a great agility dog, it must trust you. Trust you not to put it into something that will hurt it.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:40 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Well no, what concerned us was the fact that you chose to have them collide on purpose, and then called them "stupid" because of it.

Brandy does a lot of nutty things while playing, but I'm not going to purposely push her head into a stool, even when she has already done it by accident herself.
You what?
That's a bit presumptuous don't you think, I was filming it to compare Tilies jump with Beccas because of her potential problems of angulation in her rear end, this just happened and I thought after, 'Wow obedient dogs can be real stupid sometimes'

Also I did check Becca was ok IN THE VIDEO dogs are very robust creatures, that was a minor collision.

At the sit comment, yes they go selectively deaf when in each others presence it's due to litter mate syndrome, it is causing me a bit of a headache, I have found I have to say their names first, which I always forget to do, must remember, must remember..
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
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They are clearing it from sitting, that jump is nothing to them.
They suffered no pain, fright, shakes in self confidence or injury so what is your point?
They even continued jumping straight away as you saw in the vid.
My dogs are in good physical condition built up carefully over the last year.
Are you accusing me of doing this on purpose?

Here is one reference for you from typing in jumping, obedience and solid:

Schutzhund-Training.com - Jumps and Walls

Extract:


Considering I am only 5'6 and that jump is my knee height, that's a a good bit lower than 2ft.

What serious injury could have occurred here then?
It seems that the worst possible out come occurred and no injury happened.

Why are you talking about wrecks over cross country jumps?
Are you trying to de-rail my thread?

Here's a book for you to read:
Flying Dog Press: The Clothier Natural Jumping Method

but to be honest there is a pretty good chance have probably already read it.
Apparently, I really, really touched a nerve, back when I called you out on your repeat pattern of derailing the threads of other members. Based on your 4,567 petulant mentions of that, since then.

Teaching horses to jump and teaching dogs to jump is absolutely full of parallels--and many of the principles and techniques are the same.

Likewise, there are people who laugh and laugh and laugh at the fence wrecks. Whole "bloopers" reels are done, on these. Some people think it's hilarious. Serious horse people totally do not.

So, this was related, and an appropriate analogy. Your style, on the other hand, would be to jump in here and ask why debit cards require a pin number.

And, you were jumping your dogs, your young green jumpers--and you do not know the precise height you were jumping them? That seems a tad disorganized and unproductive, at best.

Did you find one reference that encouraged jumping two at once, over the same solid jump? Over any jump?

Sure, circus dogs and some other dog acts might do this, with a very wide jump, with highly trained, highly experienced dogs, and safe equipment (unlike yours), but that doesn't really equate to what is shown in your video.

There will always be trainers who disagree, but your arguments here really seem rather silly and don't paint your concern for your girls' health in a good light.

Note that my first post was typed as neutrally as possible, and with concern for your dogs only. I also wanted lurkers and readers to be made aware of the dangers pictured in the video--could have ended up with a torn CCL, fractured leg/wrist/toes, could have done face plant and had jaw/neck/dental issues. You've obviously not been to any high level agility trials and seen wrecks.

Since you've now stomped your foot and declared your way is absolutely awesome, I've bothered to type a bit more out, because I prefer to not "lighten up" when it comes to safety of animals.

The foundation you put on your dogs can be the best and the safest, or it can be some old school way you think is funny and fine. Not a thing anyone here can do about it, except call it what it is, in hopes some dogs, somewhere, may be helped by that information.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:03 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Do you know the precise height I was jumping them at?
Do you know the width of my jump?
Are you saying I think it is funny when cross country horses take a dive over a jump?
Where do you get that information?
Do you have a little wee microphone in my mind?

Green jumpers? They are not green jumpers, they have jumped over loads of things, they are perfectly co-ordinated in terms of timing, muscle memory etc. what they havn't done is jumped to command much.

You're awesome at answering/commenting on only one question/point out of people's posts you are, whilst conveniently ignoring the rest.
I've seen you do it a few times now with different people, it's a really clever way of attempting to make someone look stupid without actually quoting out of context.
It only works with your little posse of followers by the way, anyone with half a brain, says 'Fair enough so what about the rest of the post?'.
I might give it a try some time.

Quote:
Note that my first post was typed as neutrally as possible, and with concern for your dogs only. I also wanted lurkers and readers to be made aware of the dangers pictured in the video--could have ended up with a torn CCL, fractured leg/wrist/toes, could have done face plant and had jaw/neck/dental issues. You've obviously not been to any high level agility trials and seen wrecks.

What a loads of blarx if yer dog is injuring itself in these serious ways on a jump like this then I suggest you do a better job of conditioning it and training it, it's hardly high level agility now is it?. High level agility people are wrecking their dogs are they? oh well done them, I'm not. When you posted your first post I had no problem with it, did you bother reading mine?

Since you've now stomped your foot and declared your way is absolutely awesome, I've bothered to type a bit more out, because I prefer to not "lighten up" when it comes to safety of animals.
I have stomped no foot, I have just done what you asked me to do, when did I say my way was better?
Not once did I make this claim, at most I pointed out there was another way of thinking.

You have touched no nerve with the de-railing comment, I just find it amusing that you don't even notice yourself doing it then accuse me of doing it, I am amusing myself, well no actually you are amusing me, thank you, I like de-railed threads they are usually the most interesting.

So here is the questions again I am not using rhetoric here and I don't believe you answered:

Quote:
They suffered no pain, fright, shakes in self confidence or injury so what is your point?
They even continued jumping straight away as you saw in the vid.
My dogs are in good physical condition built up carefully over the last year.
Are you accusing me of doing this on purpose?
Hold the bus, don't panic, don't panic, I have seen the error of my ways I will go out tomorrow and buy myself a massive roll of bubble wrap, then I will fashion some little safety suits out of it, then I am going to make some little wee shin pads and elbow pads and a little wee helmet for each of them.
When this is finally complete I am going to hire a dude to go round clearing the way for them and making little ramps down steps and stuff and then take them to the vet every night for x rays and full physical check ups and I might as well get a full panel of bloods done every day also because their turds may get a little runny from shitting themselves over the time they collided over a jump. In fact I had better start my rehabilitation right this minute, oh man, oh no what ever will I do? I have ruined them! they are ruined! Oh woh, Oh rapture........

I'd still appreciate you opinionising on the rest of my post if you would be so kind.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:01 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I'll help you out:

Jump dimensions, height 18", 5.5ft wide.
dog dimensions, appx 25" and 27" at their shoulders.
Possibility of them landing on the jump with less than 2 feet touching the ground- effectively zero.
Injuries physical- none
Injuries psychological -none
Want to jump more- Yes
Number of faceplants/fractured bones/jaw neck and dental injuries- um zero?
Chances of the above happening- minimal
Number of dogs jumping on concrete for extended amounts of time- zero
External reference to using solid jumps to teach early stages of jumping- 1 (possibly 2)
External references to not using solid jump to teach early stages of jumping- so far zero but obviously that could change.
References to horses- WTF? many horses are no way near as robust as dogs, there are massive weight and force differences between horses and dogs also and I am pretty sure horses and dogs have different muscle/joint structure and limb mobility (I could be wrong I know bog all about horses really).
Number of successful jumps made during this video- 6
Number of failed jumps made in this video- 1
Genuine mistakes made by handler- 1
Bum reaming handed out irelivent to the OP- quite a few
Number of wild unfounded accusations about handler purposefully setting this up in order to prove a point- 1 maybe more
Mistakes made by other posters- clearly none, ever
Assumptions and disparagements made by (some) other posters- hmmmm many
Number of posts that actually are relevant to the OP-

Dobermans are generally naturally obedient to the point where it could be viewed as stupidity, they were bred that way in order to override the instinct of survival when faced with a personal protection scenario.
That is a fact not conjecture (is that the correct term? my big word English is not so hot)
If your doberman is not naturally obedient to the point of lack of self preservation then you probably don't have a doberman just something that looks like one, oh sorry thats me with my rubbishly built non conforming bred by a scum bag not worthy of the doberman name dogs

Sometimes I am amazed my dobermans learn anything, seeing as I am such a garbage trainer and they are such garbage dobermans, oh wait, they have, and they learned it together, and I had to teach them together, they are more obedient than many of the dogs that pop up on this forum even when they are together, oh and they learn new skills within hours, oh and I have never injured a dog through my stupidity, what on earth could be going on here? It's a massive mystery for which I may never find an answer

Please for the sake of the children enlighten me as to how that can have come about, it defies all logic
won't anybody think of the children!

Any chance of getting back on topic for a while?

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Old 11-12-2012, 09:43 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Did you not see how badly one of the girls legs got caught on the jump? Ouch. The canine leg is not designed to handle that.

I had refrained from commenting on you using on a non-displaceable jump before when you had posted videos. The potential for injury is very high on a jump that won't give way. Do you really want to just set your dogs up for potential injury when you have such an easy way to minimize the potential for an injury? That's what I don't get.

If you want to work two dogs at once, make one do a sit/down stay and work the other one and switch.

To claim dogs won't learn how to jump without having a solid obstacle is a completely untrue. They will learn just fine. Dogs are like humans they make honest mistakes. Those mistakes could easily lead to them getting hurt very badly. No agility dog in the US would ever be taught how to jump on jump like that. In fact agility enthusiasts all around are working to continue to make our jumps even SAFER as we try to minimize potential for a dog to get hurt.

Make a displace jump, it's easy. They can come in many different shapes, sizes, forms, materials etc.

Here is one I made that I use at my home. It is just like ones you would find at an agility trial in the US.

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Old 11-12-2012, 12:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Thanks, yes I did see how Becca had caught her leg like that and I was concerned but she seemed fine and is fine now so I stopped concerning myself about it pretty quickly.

I agree it is safer to teach them to jump with a break board or drop bar however I didn't just put it at that height and away to go, the board slot in and get progressively higher by 4" which is a bit much but they were all I had lying around. I have some of these:



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Which I will put above this height, which really is not a problem for them.
All advice believe it or not is taken on board and appreciated and I will attempt to find some info from Chris Zink/ Mecklenburg but I have always taught my dogs to jump over solid objects, starting at low heights and building up and never had any problems.
Nothing wrong with learning something new or admitting things can be done better eh.

Here is a nice song to cheer us up after such a tragedy:

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Old 11-12-2012, 12:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Matt.

The point was, EVEN with the safest equipment available--which solid jumps are NOT--dogs and horses can still have bad wrecks, but the consequences are MUCH less likely to be career-ending or life-ending, with safe equipment and courses.

As to the rest, truly not worth it.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:48 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I liked the look of agiledobe's jump. It also looks as if height change is easy if you have one dog that jumps better / higher than the other.

Matt - one thing to think about, if you use a pole (shower rail maybe, or that rubber plumbing pipe?) across your holders instead of boards that slat in, you'll know for sure that they understand 'jump' as opposed to 'get to the other side as best you can'. If there is a solid board all the way up, they have to jump, if there is one rail, they have to choose to jump as instructed rather than run underneath.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:09 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
I'll help you out:..............

Dobermans are generally naturally obedient to the point where it could be viewed as stupidity, they were bred that way in order to override the instinct of survival when faced with a personal protection scenario.
That is a fact not conjecture (is that the correct term? my big word English is not so hot)


If your doberman is not naturally obedient to the point of lack of self preservation then you probably don't have a doberman just something that looks like one, oh sorry thats me with my rubbishly built non conforming bred by a scum bag not worthy of the doberman name dogs

Sometimes I am amazed my dobermans learn anything, seeing as I am such a garbage trainer and they are such garbage dobermans, oh wait, they have, and they learned it together, and I had to teach them together, they are more obedient than many of the dogs that pop up on this forum even when they are together, oh and they learn new skills within hours, oh and I have never injured a dog through my stupidity, what on earth could be going on here? It's a massive mystery for which I may never find an answer

Please for the sake of the children enlighten me as to how that can have come about, it defies all logic
won't anybody think of the children!

Any chance of getting back on topic for a while?
Matt - #1 is, I have not viewed your "jumping jack video".
Because - it wouldn't load up on my computer // but I have read enough between the lines now, to form some opinion...and the comments & shock I have read commonly from others, seem more than justified.

I did not need to see post #1 YouTube to make my analysis...your post title, was cklear enough & made me mad...from the word go.
Re... Jumping disaster and a perfect example of dobes being 'stupidly obedient'

While I tend to enjoy some of your posts, and take the time to read them...as of late, I seem too need to wear my OCD hat, to try and understand the 360 degrees, in your logic sometimes.

Either you LOVE & RESPECT the doberman as a breed...or based on your experience & skill set, YOU refer to the word DOBE & STUPID in the same sentence...WTF Matt, you either have the wrong breed of dogs, in your household or boarding on planet Mars...and I want to be wrong here.

IMO - your use of the word "STUPID" with the "DOBE", is a mayor insult, to me.
- My last girl would not be stupid enough, if I gave her a voice command with a hand signal...to cross the road...if her eyes seen a car or truck, in her path.
(she would refuse the command, and wait till I saw the obvious)
- My last girl, would and have put her life on the line, to protect her Mom & my wife, from a real dog attack.
^^^^ In our home, each family member will protect the other...and that includes our Smart Doberman.
- she loved her loved life, but even she knew "life was not worth living" without the family unit intact and happy

Matt - it starts with a perfect & loving family bond, and if you have never experienced this with your canine(s)...you are missing the biggest pleasure in pet ownership / and would never call any of your dogs STUPID, like it is not right to call a SO or ones child STUPID.
- your Thread Title, got me shacking my head, for you / and I haven't even seen your jumping jack video
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Matt, not sure what this means:
"Remember your little fury friend is a dog first and a doberman second."
Just curious.
And maybe you meant "furry?"
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Jeez, stupid is only a word, can't think of another more PC word sorry computer couldn't suggest one either.

Saying me doing this on purpose is justified?
How?

I will try and rephrase it.

'Dobes sometimes do stupid things due to their natural obedience which can make them appear stupid.'

Any better or shall I just write it in Welsh and you can work it out from there? because I am buggered if I can get the meaning across without causing offence which it is not meant to be.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:25 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobedream View Post
Matt, not sure what this means:
"Remember your little fury friend is a dog first and a doberman second."
Just curious.
And maybe you meant "furry?"
Loz yeah! thanks!
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Old 11-12-2012, 02:49 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Maybe blind obedience would have worked?

I have watched the video & the dogs were on different sides of the jump & bumped as they both went over on command. They weren't moving very fast at all & the jump was not very high.

My Chanel fell (slipped sideways, without going down hard) off a curb the other day because she was watching me (and her ball - mostly the ball) instead of where she was going. I yelled to watch out, but (obviously) she didn't understand me & stumbled. I remember my kids doing the same thing when they were toddlers. Sadly it's experience that teaches us to anticipate the worst happening & I'm glad Becca was okay.

Chanel isn't as smart, or as street trained, as Amy was - she'd happily run through/into traffic if I called her. In fact, the last (only) time she was off leash & took off after squirrels I went across the road before calling her & she still ran towards home & a car instead of to me when I called. No off leash allowed for her in the city.
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