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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-12-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Thanks, yes I did see how Becca had caught her leg like that and I was concerned but she seemed fine and is fine now so I stopped concerning myself about it pretty quickly.
Just because she doesn't "appear" injured doesn't mean she isn't. There could be small tears in the muscles, tendons or ligaments that will heal, that can go unnoticed.

I am not saying she is hurt, but many dogs later in life will have a chronic injury that just will not heal or get better, many times these injuries are the accumulation of small amounts of damage to the body over time. A combination of poor body structure, lack of body awareness or self preservation and accidents either in training or just being a dog accumulate.

I am not saying this ONE incident will result in her having shoulder problems later on, but why cause undue stress? I work hard to keep my dogs safe and in peak condition for performance. My dogs are good jumpers but they have their share of accidents from time to time. Almost without fail at their next chiropractic adjustment they will need something fixed. They may appear "okay" to a casual observe but I can see small differences in their jumping - lack of extension, dropped bars or problems weaving etc.

You can't prevent everything from happening, but it is just the idea of stacking the deck in your favor.

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I agree it is safer to teach them to jump with a break board or drop bar however I didn't just put it at that height and away to go, the board slot in and get progressively higher by 4" which is a bit much but they were all I had lying around. I have some of these:

Which I will put above this height, which really is not a problem for them.
All advice believe it or not is taken on board and appreciated and I will attempt to find some info from Chris Zink/ Mecklenburg but I have always taught my dogs to jump over solid objects, starting at low heights and building up and never had any problems.
Nothing wrong with learning something new or admitting things can be done better eh.
Training in increments is important, 4" is not too bad. Some regular agility jumps are only adjustable in 4" increments, others like the one I made adjust in 2" increments. Thank you for looking at using something safer to use. Those plastic cups look like a good solution, I have used/seen something similar. Honestly I am not sure how much you will find from big name people about using displace-able bars... it's one of those things that is such common knowledge that no one really states the obvious.

Actually here is a very recent blog post from Linda Mecklenburg about equipment safety, although I don't believe it directly addresses the issues of displace-able bars: Blog





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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-12-2012, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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@ Agiledobe-

@the people that take offence at the use of the word stupid.

The word I need in welsh is 'TWP' which is a way of saying someone is 'stupid' but also in an endearing way, not just as a derogatory comment.
Daft, goofy, um, foolish I don't know ffs.

If I had put 'twp' you may not have understood what the hell I was saying, or do you use the word 'twp' also?

Maybe these links will help:

Quote:
Dobermans are generally naturally obedient to the point where it could be viewed as stupidity, they were bred that way in order to override the instinct of survival when faced with a personal protection scenario.
Google Translate.

Google Translate.

Google Translate

copy and paste the words between boxes a few times and you will see it becomes gibberish in no time.

and:

twp - Wiktionary

The welsh word for stupidity in the bad sense is 'hurtrwydd' stupid is 'hurt' or 'dwl' depending on what you are saying.

Google Translate

That welsh actually means 'Dobes sometimes do silly things because of their natural obedience that can make them seem daft'.

Bear in mind that every translation is ,um, proper (formal) welsh not really spoken welsh as such. Which makes it even harder for me to get my point across typing written welsh in that translator mostly comes up with gibberish.

Although I speak English on a daily basis and have done forever I think in Welsh. Welsh is actually very hard to translate into English with exactness of meaning because the structure is completely opposite and has many less words than english.
It's getting harder all the time because EVERYONE speaks welsh where I am living now (6ish years) to the point of militancy i.e they won't speak in English unless they really have to.
Indeed why should they?
Which is fine until you have to get precise and technical about things, which is also why sometimes I have to put just plain blunt sentences one after the other which some people seems to take offence at.

When I think of dobermans in this way I think they are 'twp', in my head which a literal translation is 'stupid' but has more uses than the derogatory 'stupid' so although it translates to stupid it means 'daft' maybe daft would have been a better word then.
Personally I have no problem with the word stupid, it means nothing bad particularly to me because stupid and daft/silly have similar weightings for me.
Sorry if I offended you it certainly wasn't my intention.

Oh and you may want to look up the word 'coegni' for the bit about my dobermans.
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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-12-2012, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AgileDobe View Post
Just because she doesn't "appear" injured doesn't mean she isn't. There could be small tears in the muscles, tendons or ligaments that will heal, that can go unnoticed.

I am not saying she is hurt, but many dogs later in life will have a chronic injury that just will not heal or get better, many times these injuries are the accumulation of small amounts of damage to the body over time. A combination of poor body structure, lack of body awareness or self preservation and accidents either in training or just being a dog accumulate.

I am not saying this ONE incident will result in her having shoulder problems later on, but why cause undue stress? I work hard to keep my dogs safe and in peak condition for performance. My dogs are good jumpers but they have their share of accidents from time to time. Almost without fail at their next chiropractic adjustment they will need something fixed. They may appear "okay" to a casual observe but I can see small differences in their jumping - lack of extension, dropped bars or problems weaving etc.

You can't prevent everything from happening, but it is just the idea of stacking the deck in your favor.



Training in increments is important, 4" is not too bad. Some regular agility jumps are only adjustable in 4" increments, others like the one I made adjust in 2" increments. Thank you for looking at using something safer to use. Those plastic cups look like a good solution, I have used/seen something similar. Honestly I am not sure how much you will find from big name people about using displace-able bars... it's one of those things that is such common knowledge that no one really states the obvious.

Actually here is a very recent blog post from Linda Mecklenburg about equipment safety, although I don't believe it directly addresses the issues of displace-able bars: Blog
She does indeed touch on it, albeit in the manner you mentioned--that it is such common, basic consensus knowledge that there should no longer even exist an argument for non-displaceable jumps.

This bit, here:

...it is not desirable for jumps to have a crosspiece that connects the two uprights (or wings). This makes the uprights nearly non displaceable. As we all know, dogs make mistakes and they hit uprights as well as bars. If we require displaceable bars, it just makes sense to require displaceable uprights...

Continuing on in this below bit, she touches on a couple things near and dear to me. Kylie, bless her heart, once showed off by gleefully sailing over the (very tall) jump wings, rather than the bar.

Probably a handling error on my part, as I'd already started my lateral movement subtly, just as she was taking off--I needed to hold position a millisecond longer--but the wing was entirely horizontal and looked like, well, a jump to her. And, even though she cleared it with room to spare, we obviously got a wrong course and an NQ, on an otherwise great run. But, she could have been injured--a lesser jumper actually would have been.

The tire thing that Linda mentions--I won't even put my dogs thru a solid tire any longer, and if a club is only offering that, I won't enter. I watched a classmate's BC, who has his MACH, make a slight error and hit the solid tire last year. He is super fast anyway, and going in full extension, at speed. He flipped over more times than you see on those Whacked Out Sports clips.

Thankfully, he was okay, but the chiro did feel he needed several adjustments, and his human partner made sure he had good follow up care.


From the same blog post: ...Jump wings should not be constructed so that the dog is confused about what part is the actual jump. Wings should not have predominantly horizontal components that resemble bars or planks, nor should there be large gaps or holes that a dog could fit through. This is often seen with manufactured spread jumps. I’ve seen dogs jump through the metal end piece that connects the two uprights of the spread. This could result in serious injury.
I don’t understand why metal is used for any jump component these days, but I am really befuddled as to why metal would be the material of choice for wall jumps and broad jumps. There are lightweight, durable materials out there that can be used for these obstacles.
Note: It was refreshing to attend the USDAA Cynosports World Games this year and not witness one single tire crash.

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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-12-2012, 06:37 PM
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Thanks RFR.

I had read the blog post a few days ago, and just skimmed over it again when it came up in a google search. I guess I should have read through the whole thing again

Delta did a similar thing as your Kylie did once. She came at the triple wrong cleared the side of the jump and exited over the bars. That was along time ago, but I recall that I did a pretty crappy job of setting her up for it too.

Oh god, I hate tire crashes. They are some of the worst accidents. We train exclusively on a displaceable tire, but as AKC doesn't allow it yet we don't get to trial on one. I know it's coming soon though acorrding to one of the AKC Agility reps - you can read it in the comments on this page: AgilityNerd : My AKC Tire Safety Proposal

I had to laugh the other night when I was subbing for another instructor in an agility class. One of the students had a very driven shepherd who broke open the breakaway tire. She thought he had actually broken it





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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 02:25 AM Thread Starter
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How does a breakaway tyre work and what does a tyre crashout look like? Does the dog proper flip like a race car?
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post #31 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 02:46 AM
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How does a breakaway tyre work and what does a tyre crashout look like? Does the dog proper flip like a race car?
Here is a breakaway tyre that belongs to my agility club



See the dark line in the tyre to the bottom left of the dog? That's the break away break, it's joined together by magnets... If the dog hits it the tyre pops open... I have never seen a dog have a big crash out on the sort of tyre we have here, but have seen them take out the uprights on hurdles and the dog + the hurdle go flying in a big crash


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post #32 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 11:58 AM
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Ouch of pain:

bad agility tire crash - YouTube

Flip:

Cheetah's tire crash 8-17-08 - YouTube

More flipping:

Agility tire accident - YouTube

(My friend's dog, Strider flipped and skidded even worse, but she destroyed the video, says she can't bear it watched.)

This one had to have hurt, jammed neck and all, but note the dog gets up and tries to go right on. That's what dogs do.

Josie Crashes the tire, March 2009 - YouTube

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post #33 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:16 PM Thread Starter
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Holy crap those are bad! I nearly didn't watch the last one after the golden one, which was just horrific, he didn't seem too bothered though eh.

Didn't realise agility could be so bloody dangerous but then I have never used or seen those tyre jumps.
That tyre obstacle is just asking for trouble IMO I can see why a breakaway one is needed.
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post #34 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:20 PM
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Holy crap those are bad! I nearly didn't watch the last one after the golden one, which was just horrific, he didn't seem too bothered though eh.

Didn't realise agility could be so bloody dangerous but then I have never used or seen those tyre jumps.
That tyre obstacle is just asking for trouble IMO I can see why a breakaway one is needed.
As you go up in levels, agility becomes very challenging, mentally and physically, for both dog and handler.

It's becoming more and more precise, more competitive, and the courses much trickier and more technical.

Dogs slice jumps at speed and there's really little room for the smallest errors.

Internationally experienced teams still occasionally have wrecks, and it's not just on the tire--but everything being as "breakaway" as possible helps to keep serious injuries at bay.

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post #35 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:34 PM
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Holy crap those are bad! I nearly didn't watch the last one after the golden one, which was just horrific, he didn't seem too bothered though eh.

Didn't realise agility could be so bloody dangerous but then I have never used or seen those tyre jumps.
That tyre obstacle is just asking for trouble IMO I can see why a breakaway one is needed.
They are bad crashes, and perfect examples of why breakaway tires need to be used (same as displacable bars). Also all of those crashes were good examples of the dogs making honest mistakes. Tire accidents most often happen when a dog misjudges the distance or the number of strides needed between obstacles.

This is identical to the one I train on: Clean Run: Break-Away Tire

There is always inherent risk in anything your dog does. As owners, it is our job to try and minimize the risk for our dogs as we are the ones asking them to participate in this sport with us. You have no idea how HUGE of a movement there has been over the last couple of years to get breakaway tires. I will bet the next step will be towards eliminating any metal jump cups, maybe even metal jumps all together.

As the sport grows and evolves we learn more and more. The tires have come ALONG ways from the beginnings of this sport - they used to be made out of actual tires and were extremely heavy. We have in the last couple of years switched to contacts which are rubberized instead of textured paint, another thing that greatly benefits the dogs.





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post #36 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:47 PM
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We had a bad time of it at an outdoor trial in the rain. Bacchus was doing great until the pause table. He didn't run to it and jump up on it instead he sailed at it....at full speed. He slid to the very edge (his toes were hanging off) and scraped off part of his little pad on his pastern and he had clobbered the inside of his left rear leg, penis and knee. He stayed on the table. I didn't see it happen but I heard the yell from the crowd. I was on the opposite side of his hit. I walked around to that side and he had his rear leg lifted at an odd angle. I grabbed his collar and tried to ease him off the table. He yelped but still tried to go to the panel jump in front of us. I moved him in front of me, facing me and he yelped again. I moved him to heel position so we could get out of the ring and he yelped again. On the way out of the ring he was pulling so hard to go to his leash that I wound up stepping on two of his paws. I got the leash on him and told him "move out" and I had my son hold him while I checked him over. Needless to say we packed up and left. Nothing broken but he was sore.

Anyone who thinks agility is a fluff has never run it.
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post #37 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:53 PM
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Hang on guys.

Jumps that collapse etc are not always safer, I have seen a horse knock a pole, it come off and literally wrap the horse harshly on the legs as it was knocked back and forth. Granted a dog is not a horse, however, from what I have seen the jump the dogs have to do in Shutzhund (IPO) are fixed and not unlike the jump Matts dogs were doing.

As for Matt laughing, well yeah, it might sound a bit off, but hey, haven't we all laughed at something that was ever so slightly inappropriate. Not because we are being nasty, but rather because it just happens.
Initially when I saw the dogs crash into each other I thought, 'they are just like my dogs,' paying more attention to the treats than what was happening around them. Then when you guys expressed concern for the dogs well being, I thought I must have missed something. In all honesty I am sure we have all seen far worse things happening. I know I have, in of all places Shutzhund, Agility grounds etc, etc and whilst it didnt look very nice I don't think it was so bad.

By the way, I know training on concrete is not ideal, but hey, not everyone has access to a nice soft field of grass (for instance) The area where I do my training is sun baked rocky soil. I know it is not ideal, but it is the best I can do, given what there is around here.

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post #38 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:03 PM
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I've seen a triple demolished by a dog and poles and supports went flying but considering how worse it would have been for the dog if the entire thing stayed intact....

I prefer things that fall apart. I prefer rubberized surfaces. I like the shorter chute. I'd like to see a break-a-way tire. I want to have the course as safe as possible for my dog because no matter how hard you try to put them in at good angles $hit happens when you and your partner are running that course.
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post #39 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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why on earth are breakaway tyres not standard issue?
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post #40 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:48 PM
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Good question.
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post #41 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:58 PM
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Hang on guys.

Jumps that collapse etc are not always safer, I have seen a horse knock a pole, it come off and literally wrap the horse harshly on the legs as it was knocked back and forth. we have all seen far worse things happening. I know I have, in of all places Shutzhund, Agility grounds etc, etc and whilst it didnt look very nice I don't think it was so bad.
If you think those show jumping wrecks are bad, take a look at some of the eventing ones. Trust me, having been on the "knocked to the ground" end of both, collapsing fences are MUCH safer for both horse and rider.
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post #42 of 42 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
why on earth are breakaway tyres not standard issue?
They are here


Do it or Elsie CDX UDX TT1 JDX AD RA
Ch Alarves Completely Awesome (IMP Aus)
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