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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 11:28 AM Thread Starter
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A thought on large breed

I decided to start a new thread because I didn't want to get accused of hijacking and derailing other peoples threads.
Do you consider dobermans to be ' A large breed ' in terms of dog food labelling?
I personally do not.

thoughts please?
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 11:47 AM
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Large-side of the medium group, to me. Not quite in the large group. I see too many places list Doberman Pinschers in with things like the St Bernard and Great Dane and I just go... what?

And yes, it looks like we're in the middle so far when it comes to our food. Not on the large side at all.

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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 11:51 AM
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for me they are a large dog, because I'm a shrimp - but no, they aren't a large breed according to the standard... and anyway, it's not a good idea to use large-breed dog foods - a good all-stages food is better.


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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolonurse View Post
for me they are a large dog, because I'm a shrimp - but no, they aren't a large breed according to the standard... and anyway, it's not a good idea to use large-breed dog foods - a good all-stages food is better.
Yeah, we use an ALS. I was thinking the question was about quantity for some reason. Derp.

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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 11:54 AM
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Dobermans are a medium-sized dog but due to their presence people often get a "large dog" vibe from them.

I feed an all life stages food for all dogs.



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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 12:01 PM
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I consider them a medium size breed. Large, to me, is dane, St.B, etc..

I feed an stage food.
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 12:23 PM
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Well, I'll be the dissenter here and go ahead and say that I think the Dobe IS a large breed dog in spite of what the standard calls for but it has nothing to do with food. (I don't feed a large breed formula.)

I'm sorry but I do not consider a male dog who stands 28" at the shoulder and weighs around 90-lbs to be a medium size dog. The small bitches of the breed are what I'd consider medium - approx. 24" at the shoulder and 50-60 lbs - but I hardly refer to the smallest end of the scale for the entire breed when considering whether they're medium or large.

Good examples of what I consider to be medium...Husky's are a "medium size" breed. Husky males are ideally up to 23.5" and 60-lbs. Boxers are a "medium size breed" and the males are ideally the size of a female Doberman.

The Dobe standard can call for a "medium size dog" all day long but the breed has been bred bigger and bigger and bigger; far beyond the actual medium size of the breed many decades ago. Like some breeds have become smaller and smaller, some have continued in the opposite direction. It's just what's happened.




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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brw1982 View Post
Well, I'll be the dissenter here and go ahead and say that I think the Dobe IS a large breed dog in spite of what the standard calls for but it has nothing to do with food. (I don't feed a large breed formula.)

I'm sorry but I do not consider a male dog who stands 28" at the shoulder and weighs around 90-lbs to be a medium size dog. The small bitches of the breed are what I'd consider medium - approx. 24" at the shoulder and 50-60 lbs - but I hardly refer to the smallest end of the scale for the entire breed when considering whether they're medium or large.

Good examples of what I consider to be medium...Husky's are a "medium size" breed. Husky males are ideally up to 23.5" and 60-lbs. Boxers are a "medium size breed" and the males are ideally the size of a female Doberman.

The Dobe standard can call for a "medium size dog" all day long but the breed has been bred bigger and bigger and bigger; far beyond the actual medium size of the breed many decades ago. Like some breeds have become smaller and smaller, some have continued in the opposite direction. It's just what's happened.
I tend to agree... to me the danes ect are "giants", but I'd also say that a 27", 100lb dog is something I personally would call large. Though I also do not feed a "large breed" food.

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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 12:49 PM
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We also need to not confuse what we are seeing in Dobermans now, and what they are suppose to be.

According to the standard they would be classified as a medium.

According to the **** we see from bybs breeding for large dogs, you would classify them as large breed.

More and more people want a bigger doberman, slowly but surely they are slipping away from the standard and entering the large breed category.


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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I am talking about in terms of feeding because I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that large breed food has less protein (from the 'good' foods) to prevent the dog gaining weight too quickly in mass until their skeleton is all good.

I hadn't thought of BYB's making BIG dogs which is just pure retarded.
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post

I hadn't thought of BYB's making BIG dogs which is just pure retarded.
Oh yes, if you have a gander at the Kimbertal website (my Elka is not a Kimbertal dog, but rather a generation removed, so same difference), the available puppies are all labeled things like "superior sized", "superior size and quality" and "oversized" and the cheaper ones are "regular sized". Or they would be, but the ones I saw the other day aren't there anymore. Poor puppies. But, I digress. My Elka is 27-29 inches at the shoulder (I swear she was 27 but I measured her again at 29 so I need a third time to see which is right) and 75 pounds. That's a pretty damn big dog.

The BYB "marketing" is that a bigger dog is better (superior). A bigger dog can be more protective, or something, while a properly sized Doberman must be a dainty fairy.

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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 01:45 PM
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Personally I've found the labels used by pet companies so ridiculous.
I wouldn't consider my boy at 65lbs to be a large dog but god help me if I pick up a 'large' toy or jacket. He'd need a XXXL... I think one of the problems is the view that the public has of what a large or medium sized breed is. It's considerably more skewed that it used to be, I think it has to do with the prevalence of small dogs being more common as family dogs. But I digress...

In terms of food I look at the percentages, ratios and ingredients on each food I'm considering. I don't count something out just based on it being "large breed" or not. I luckily have a great gentleman who works at our local high-end pet store who is amazingly helpful when it comes to making our food based decisions. So I guess my answer is that I try not to label him as one thing or another... I just try to do what's best for him.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by missabaldwin View Post
Personally I've found the labels used by pet companies so ridiculous.
I wouldn't consider my boy at 65lbs to be a large dog but god help me if I pick up a 'large' toy or jacket. He'd need a XXXL...


THIS THIS THIS!!! I hate going to the store to look at things like collars or harnesses for my 6MONTH PUPPY and have to get XXl to fit! I mean I know the whole deep chest throws a kink in there but seriously?
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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 02:14 PM
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Last I measured Ivan he was 29" tall and over 80 lbs. That's a large sized dog to me and not ideally suited for SAR work - in my opinion. I had to help Ivan get into the back of a tractor trailer the other day. Lifting him up there wasn't an easy task. I would love for Dobermans to downsize.


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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 02:16 PM
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Ivan's chest isn't my problem - he doesn't have one to speak of. But in order to get something long enough to cover his length, it's way too huge in the chest.


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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMaro View Post
We also need to not confuse what we are seeing in Dobermans now, and what they are suppose to be.

According to the standard they would be classified as a medium.

According to the **** we see from bybs breeding for large dogs, you would classify them as large breed.

More and more people want a bigger doberman, slowly but surely they are slipping away from the standard and entering the large breed category.


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Just want to clarify that I'm not talking about BYB breeding large dogs. I'm talking about dogs I've met who are mature males and have their AKC Ch. The pups and adolescent males that people see in the ring en route to earning their Ch are a far cry from what a mature male Dobe looks like.

The Doberman standard does not DQ dogs over standard. My understanding is the extent to which 'over standard' is considered a fault is dependent upon the judge.




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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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Doesn't that make a bit of a farce of the standard?
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 02:48 PM
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I think the labeling of dog food for the size of the dog is purely a gimmick to charge a little more for the average adult dog food. I would likely stay away from any dog food with such a label. We also stay away from the "Large Breed" label on puppy food as well. We feed all of our dogs a high quality adult dog food with the exception of our small weanling puppies. I sometimes buy a bag or two of puppy food when I am very first weaning them, but switch to the adult food after that.

As far as size, the standard may consider them a medium size dog, but I would guess most of the general public considers a Doberman a large dog.

As just as aside comment, I was fairly surprised at the size (small) of many of the males dogs at the DPCA National this year, especially in the classes. Many with the "long and low" look. Unfortunately, there were only a few real manly males in the bunch. I think I'll be quiet now before I get myself in trouble.

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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brw1982 View Post
Just want to clarify that I'm not talking about BYB breeding large dogs. I'm talking about dogs I've met who are mature males and have their AKC Ch. The pups and adolescent males that people see in the ring en route to earning their Ch are a far cry from what a mature male Dobe looks like.

The Doberman standard does not DQ dogs over standard. My understanding is the extent to which 'over standard' is considered a fault is dependent upon the judge.
I was about to say the same thing but you beat me to it I always thought/knew my byb boy was a giant for a doberman, and for a while the only other dobermans I saw were small working line dobes. The first time I saw multiple well bred AKC show line Dobermans, I was shocked. There are much more medium sized females out there, but some of those males were 'huge' and a far cry from the medium, easily maneuverable dogs of the 'past'.

When I see a large Doberman, I never think "wow they look athletic!", although there are plenty of athletic, large dobermans, they just don't strike me that me. On the contrary, when I see a much smaller than average Doberman I think "Wow, that dog looks quick!"
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
I think the labeling of dog food for the size of the dog is purely a gimmick to charge a little more for the average adult dog food. I would likely stay away from any dog food with such a label. We also stay away from the "Large Breed" label on puppy food as well. We feed all of our dogs a high quality adult dog food with the exception of our small weanling puppies. I sometimes buy a bag or two of puppy food when I am very first weaning them, but switch to the adult food after that.

As far as size, the standard may consider them a medium size dog, but I would guess most of the general public considers a Doberman a large dog.

As just as aside comment, I was fairly surprised at the size (small) of many of the males dogs at the DPCA National this year, especially in the classes. Many with the "long and low" look. Unfortunately, there were only a few real manly males in the bunch. I think I'll be quiet now before I get myself in trouble.
After going to the same nationals, I actually thought the opposite. Well, not that they had more bone and substance, but most of the males seemed very tall!
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 03:00 PM
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Not that it really has anything to do with feeding them, but did you know the wording of the standard has changed from my 1956 Dog Book to my 1985 one? (I also have the latest one and a 1940's one, somewhere)

In the General Appearance section, the 1956 standard reads "The appearance is that of a dog good middle size...", with "males 26 to 28 inches, ideal being about 27 inches; bitches, 24 to 26 inches, ideal being about 25 1/2 inches." Interestingly enough, there was a provision for uncropped ears. "Ears- Well trimmed and carried erect. (In all states where ear trimming is prohibited, or where dogs with cropped ears cannot be shown, the forgoing requirements are waived.)"

The 1985 standard states "The appearance is that of a dog of medium size..." The only difference in height requirements is that the ideal size for dogs is now 27 1/2 inches.


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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Doesn't that make a bit of a farce of the standard?
I guess that would be a matter of personal opinion.

IMO, it doesn't make it any more so of a farce than any other 'fault' showing up in the ring (and there will *always* be faults - no dog is perfect though I've seen some that make me question that statement LOL). I don't see that most judges are necessarily rewarding over standard dogs so much as there are just some big dogs that are really nice and extremely competitive. So again, preference defers to the judge you're showing to that day. Maybe there are 2 really nice dogs of virtually equal quality (apart from their differing faults) showing that day and one has a slightly rounded croup and the other is an inch over standard. A rounded croup in the Dobe ring is strongly penalized pretty much across the board, so perhaps the bigger, over standard dog gets the win that day.

Just because a really nice dog is over standard doesn't necessarily mean he should be harshly penalized for that.

And most of the 'big' boys I've seen are around 28" but they have massive amounts of bone and muscle. That's not actually a lot taller than the ideal in the standard, so much as they're really solid/thick dogs which is how the hit the 90-lb mark.

I'd also like to add that many dogs earn their Ch at a year old, give or take. A 1-year old male is not even close to having the substance of a fully mature 4 or 5 year old male. So you take these pups that look a little light and lean at a year old when they finish and then you see the same dogs at 4 or 5 and it's quite a transformation. Dogs that finish at 1-year old may still be well within standard and a little on the light side; doesn't mean they stay that way. Which is one reason I think so many people believe that NA show line Dobermans are skinny. If they go to shows and watch all the dogs going in and out of the ring, the vast majority of those dogs are not fully mature adults. Even a male at 3-years old looks different than he will at 5. But that's a whole other conversation...




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Last edited by brw1982; 11-09-2012 at 03:24 PM.
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 04:26 PM
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There's a trend in Germany for bigger = better, and everyone I talk to tells me their dogs are 72cm or 68cm (top of the FCI standard for males and females respectively). Ashra is 63cm and I can tell you that I am very sure that those dogs were not less than 10cm taller than her. And some people even commented on how she is "too small" (63cm is the lower end of the FCI standard for females)... right.

Adpef on the standard throughout history in the US:
Progress in Head Type and Size in Doberman Pinscher between 1899-1970 | ADPEF

As for medium... you can find information easily on the 1899 standard in several German language sources but the only English language version I have seen is in a book which is copyrighted, so I won't paste it here. What adpef doesn't mention is that the Dobermann was ideally about 20kg (44lb) which differs greatly from the FCI standard of today calling for bitches to be 32-35kg (71-78lb) and dogs to be 40-45kg (88-99lb). The dogs have basically doubled in size but are still labelled as "medium". I would definitely call today's Dobermann a large breed.

Regarding food: I feed ALS. I don't like having to bother with switching foods from puppy - adult - senior etc. and I find the better brands have ALS anyway.

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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Asmit View Post
After going to the same nationals, I actually thought the opposite. Well, not that they had more bone and substance, but most of the males seemed very tall!
Well, if you were watching the males classes, you probably saw the handsome red male that Brian Casy was showing in Bred By AOAC, Liberator's Apache War Bonnett? He looked like a giant in the Winners Dog Class because he actually had some bone and size. He was measured in the Judges Education Seminar afer Winners Dog judging and wicked at 27 3/4 inches. I saw many adult males that looked barely 26 inches to me.

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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
Well, if you were watching the males classes, you probably saw the handsome red male that Brian Casy was showing in Bred By AOAC, Liberator's Apache War Bonnett? He looked like a giant in the Winners Dog Class because he actually had some bone and size. He was measured in the Judges Education Seminar afer Winners Dog judging and wicked at 27 3/4 inches. I saw many adult males that looked barely 26 inches to me.
I know nothing of show dogs, names, etc so idk which dog your talking about! Lol wasn't trying to argue with you at all or say you were wrong, and I didn't pay much attention to the akc stuff so opinion really means nothing. Just saying I remember being surprised that my 31" boy really didn't seem any taller than the show dogs. Where as when I work or watch a working line dog I notice a signifcantly size and bone difference.

Where the dogs I saw actually tall? Obviously not considering the measurements you talked about, I just said that they seemed so much larger than I expected.
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