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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 06:38 AM Thread Starter
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What started this??

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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 07:41 AM
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Am I reading the last part of the crop/dock debate correctly, in that it is proposed that uncropped/docked dogs are designated as a different breed?

So effectively you're going to tell the Germans (and all other nations with crop/dock bans) that they no longer own/breed dobermanns?

I'd like to be a fly on the wall when all those affected hear about that!

My guess is it won't do the credibility of the DPCA a lot of good. ...might be better to think that one through a bit more

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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 08:01 AM
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So basically this farce of a website is suggesting that my DOBERMAN shouldn't actually be called a Doberman because I decided to leave his ears and tail as is? How completely and utterly ridiculous.

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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 09:15 AM
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What a load of complete and utter drivel



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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 09:46 AM
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What ever did happen with that albino TT dog? I remember the controversy, but what was the ultimate outcome?
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 09:54 AM
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Perhaps I should get some t-shirts printed up that say....Real Dobermanns have 2 "N's" (and soft ears and a tail)


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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 10:39 AM
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Well that was a fun read.

I think it's insane to think that a cosmetic surgery (chopping off body parts, to put it simply) would completely change a dog's breed (i.e. genetic makeup). Silly people.



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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 11:32 AM
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WOW.

"Putting long ears on a Doberman is like putting a snow plow on a NASCAR entry"

That is a gross exaggeration, at very best. The suggestion to create and register a whole separate breed based on crop/dock? Absolutely absurd. I can't possibly work my head around the whole train of thought that created that site.

Completely irritating.



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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 11:34 AM
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I don't have a thing to do with that website. I think they overstate their case on a lot of issues. That being said, I can't disagree with some of the stuff they bring up, although creating a new breed for floppy eared, ring tailed dobermans isn't one of the things I agree with.

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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulcher View Post
What started it you ask... crazy people.


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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 05:30 PM
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lol I tell people that common sense can no longer be called that, it should be called good sense now because I come across so many people without it, that it is no longer common lol. It is a new super power.

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 11:33 PM
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The America dobermans are distinctly different from Euro dogs. And with Euro adding ears and tails the breeding considerations change - and therefore other factors come into the gene pool.

A famous example is the silverfox the Russians tried to domesticate. Different expressions of the genes were found in the domesticated vs. wild foxes.

So too the Dobermans bred for specific tail expressions, ears also will introduce new genes into the lines and fundamentally change the Doberman.

It only makes genetic sense to preserve them as separate species if they are to survive.

And only a lack of knowledge in breeding and history would 'poo-poo' the concept of dividing the American & Euro types.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josephbyer View Post
The America dobermans are distinctly different from Euro dogs. And with Euro adding ears and tails the breeding considerations change - and therefore other factors come into the gene pool.

A famous example is the silverfox the Russians tried to domesticate. Different expressions of the genes were found in the domesticated vs. wild foxes.

So too the Dobermans bred for specific tail expressions, ears also will introduce new genes into the lines and fundamentally change the Doberman.

It only makes genetic sense to preserve them as separate species if they are to survive.

And only a lack of knowledge in breeding and history would 'poo-poo' the concept of dividing the American & Euro types.
Funny that you mention "poo-poo," because there seems to be a big whiff of it, here.

Btw, you may want to go buy a used sixth grade science book and larn youself up on the difference between a breed and a species.

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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josephbyer View Post
The America dobermans are distinctly different from Euro dogs. And with Euro adding ears and tails the breeding considerations change - and therefore other factors come into the gene pool.

A famous example is the silverfox the Russians tried to domesticate. Different expressions of the genes were found in the domesticated vs. wild foxes.

So too the Dobermans bred for specific tail expressions, ears also will introduce new genes into the lines and fundamentally change the Doberman.

It only makes genetic sense to preserve them as separate species if they are to survive.

And only a lack of knowledge in breeding and history would 'poo-poo' the concept of dividing the American & Euro types.
Here's a snippet for you, all Dobes originate in their distant or not so distant past from European stock. Which means your American Dobes are essentially European, they share the same Ancestry as my Dobe, Amelia's Dobe, JobeyV's Dobe etc, etc.

Now the fact that your dogs are different in looks to European Dobes is not down to genetics (IMO), but rather aesthetics, it is not hard to change a look by selective breeding, I want a more refined Dobe, a prettier Dobe, a longer necked Dobe, a taller Dobe, etc, etc. So I will use Stud A to Girlie M and lo and behold I will have a prettier Dobe puppy than if I put Stud A to Girlie C.
Fact is, if you take my Dobes DNA and say Meadowcats Dobes DNA and look under a microscope at it, it will look the same. True the DNA covers colour, but not in my opinion (and I will gladly concede to more knowledgeable folk on this, if I am wrong) does it cover tail carriage, or ear positioning.

In truth all our Dobes are in trouble, there are far too many instances of DCM in our beloved breed for us to say, we will not consider bringing new blood into the mix. In the US you have a finite number of Dobes, you may be a Continent, but when it comes to breeding you are an Island.

In other words, declare Europeans to be a seperate breed to your own and eventually you will rue the day just as the breeders of the Majorcan Mastif have.

As for my Dobe who has floppy ears being a different breed to one with cropped ears, I needed that laugh.

Last edited by Toby'shuman; 11-29-2012 at 04:51 AM.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
Btw, you may want to go buy a used sixth grade science book and larn youself up on the difference between a breed and a species.
seeeriously. lol@thinking every breed is a different species.

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 06:17 AM
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This whole discussion is silly and nonsensical. Honestly. No matter where the Doberman(n) goes we can all do our part to support the responsible breeders to continue populating healthy, happy, and beautiful pups. Because that's what I want to see in 100+ years, take or leave the ears.
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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 06:57 AM
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we should bring it into real life.
I've always thought pete burns was not a human breed anyway..

That's obsurd!

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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josephbyer View Post
The America dobermans are distinctly different from Euro dogs. And with Euro adding ears and tails the breeding considerations change - and therefore other factors come into the gene pool.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't American Dobermans born with long tails and floppy ears?

A famous example is the silverfox the Russians tried to domesticate. Different expressions of the genes were found in the domesticated vs. wild foxes.

So too the Dobermans bred for specific tail expressions, ears also will introduce new genes into the lines and fundamentally change the Doberman.

It only makes genetic sense to preserve them as separate species if they are to survive.

And only a lack of knowledge in breeding and history would 'poo-poo' the concept of dividing the American & Euro types.
So, by your logic, an American show-line GSD should be considered a seperate breed from a German working-line GSD. And still those pesky registries keep calling all of them GSDs.
At a guess, since you seem to think that different breeds are seperate species, you'd call a *gag* Labradoodle *gag* a "hybrid" with a straight face.


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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 08:38 AM
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Wow!
Never have a seen English words with set and understandable meanings be arranged in such a way as the finished product be almost completely meaning less.
There is some quality blarx in there.

I too am interested in what happened with the Albino
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 09:58 AM
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is not what is going on is a division is trying to be created among the doberman group, this may be the argument today but these type of arguments tend to morph overtime as the real goals come to life. Am i wrong to think that the cropping of the Dobes ears has a growing under-current of cruelty, I choose ears cropped and thats my choice , but i think there are those that want eliminate the choice.
I would prefer a division in my utopian world where DCM is the fork in the road for the Breed.
I am asking since i really don't get this: Labordoodles today are novelty, scoffed at, but were not all dogs breeds The result of pairings the same way we have a Lab. doo. Years to come will this new style of dog if it persist be defined as a breed. Is that possible?
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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan j. View Post
is not what is going on is a division is trying to be created among the doberman group, this may be the argument today but these type of arguments tend to morph overtime as the real goals come to life. Am i wrong to think that the cropping of the Dobes ears has a growing under-current of cruelty, I choose ears cropped and thats my choice , but i think there are those that want eliminate the choice.
I would prefer a division in my utopian world where DCM is the fork in the road for the Breed.
I am asking since i really don't get this: Labordoodles today are novelty, scoffed at, but were not all dogs breeds The result of pairings the same way we have a Lab. doo. Years to come will this new style of dog if it persist be defined as a breed. Is that possible?
Seeing as the Kennel Club has declared you can have pedigree Jack Russells (sorry but to me it will always be a type, not a breed) I would think anything is possible.
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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 10:20 AM
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I think the problem with the doberman breed standard is it is too specific.
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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 01:42 PM
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Not sure why I just decided to search for "2undoit" but found it funny that the first subject line of this thread was "Who Started This?"

And one of the person's responsible replied with their one and only post on DT.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulcher View Post
ANSWER:

Quote:
Originally Posted by josephbyer View Post
The America dobermans are distinctly different from Euro dogs. And with Euro adding ears and tails the breeding considerations change - and therefore other factors come into the gene pool.

A famous example is the silverfox the Russians tried to domesticate. Different expressions of the genes were found in the domesticated vs. wild foxes.

So too the Dobermans bred for specific tail expressions, ears also will introduce new genes into the lines and fundamentally change the Doberman.

It only makes genetic sense to preserve them as separate species if they are to survive.

And only a lack of knowledge in breeding and history would 'poo-poo' the concept of dividing the American & Euro types.


Last edited by M_Shannon; 05-29-2013 at 01:51 PM.
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