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Old 02-17-2012, 03:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Can two male dobermans coexist?

I'd say so, mine can eat or drink from the same bowl. They get along great... only rarely will the get attitude with each other and that generally happens with excited play, hey kind of like boys!!!

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Old 02-17-2012, 04:07 PM   #2 (permalink)
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It can and does work in some situations but in many it does not. I think many of the members here are of a "why risk it" mentality when it comes to keeping multiple males.
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Old 02-17-2012, 04:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Pretty boys! How old are they?
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Old 02-17-2012, 04:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Best of luck, I hope it stays that way. Many times you won't see a problem until 2-3 years old, and by that time if they do get into a scuffle, they're going to be strong enough to cause serious damage... Then the problem becomes you either have to deal with a life of crate or rotate, or rehome one, which will be next to impossible if there is a bite issue. So in other words, if you don't crate and rotate, one will likely be put down. Too much to risk for most people. If they start to show signs of same sex aggression, they need to be separated immediately, and always. So it's definitely something to not let your guard down about.

I've seen members think everything was ok, and then they came home to a dead dog after work one day because they didn't think that their dogs can be like that, and unfortunately, that's not an unusual story. So I would just never let your guard down.

It's not impossible for males to co-exist, but those that are familiar with the risks certainly wouldn't risk it.
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Old 02-17-2012, 04:29 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Pretty boys! How old are they?
That is a very good question. As I understand it, younger males, i.e. not yet fully mature, may get along for a while, but when, a lot of times, something triggers a fight, and they can never be trusted together again. That's not to say you might get lucky, and they get along great for the next 10 years, but the odds are against it. Even having opposite sex dogs doesn't guarantee no fights. I have a male Rattie, and a female mutt, and have had to break up more than one fight in the last almost two years.
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Old 02-17-2012, 04:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
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What are the ages of your boys? I had two boyz together for about 14 months. I didn't have any problems, BUT one was a 12 week old puppy and the other was 3.5 years. The 3.5 year old had DCM, so we knew his time was limited, that is the only reason why I took a chance getting the second male. I didn't want to be dogless when my boy Petey passed. Petey went suddenly after a 20 month battle, Monty was only 17 months old. I am very glad that I got Monty, but honestly.....I would never keep multiple males again. When male Dobes mature is when the problems can begin. Male Dobes like to be the king of their castles, one male is best, unless you are ready for the potential to have to crate and rotate for the rest of their lives if problems start.
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Old 02-17-2012, 04:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Most people would say NO. But we also have 2 males also. They also drink from the same bowl. We do feed them in their crates. We do curb the excited play be for it escalates too much. They like their own space while sleeping.
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Old 02-17-2012, 05:54 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:41 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Age

Vader (one on the right) is 4.5 years old, and Kingston (on left) is 3.5 years old. They are half brothers with the same dad, different mom. They love playing together as mentioned never had any problems eating or drinking from the same bowl. I did hand feed both as puppies until they were about 5-6 months old. If there is only one bone around who ever had it first will be the one "smiling" at the other but thats just their thing as it never leads to anything. I did put thought and knew there may be trouble with two males however if I am the lucky one then so be it cause they do enjoy each others company.
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:18 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bvarmuza View Post
Vader (one on the right) is 4.5 years old, and Kingston (on left) is 3.5 years old. They are half brothers with the same dad, different mom. They love playing together as mentioned never had any problems eating or drinking from the same bowl. I did hand feed both as puppies until they were about 5-6 months old. If there is only one bone around who ever had it first will be the one "smiling" at the other but thats just their thing as it never leads to anything. I did put thought and knew there may be trouble with two males however if I am the lucky one then so be it cause they do enjoy each others company.
I guess I'm wondering what the purpose of your thread was, esp. given the title you chose.

Was it to encourage others reading along to take the same risks, without knowing the level of expertise those readers have, in handling and training?

Or was it kind of a "meh, in your face stupid-know-it-all forum"?

I dunno, just seems like you could have simply posted a pic thread of your two boys, unless part of your purpose was to stir controversy.

I'm actually not one of the louder voices on here about two males together, and have successfully had a peaceable pack or two over the years with multiple males--however I will note there were differences in age, drive, and temperament, as well as breed.

There are some dogs I'd try it with, some not. It's simply risky, as others said, and most here won't encourage risky behavior when caring for pets.

It does seem that many BYB Dobermans don't have a lot of drive and don't seem very, er, for lack of a better way to put it "Doberman-y." I have seen pairs of *that* type of Doberman do better together, but again, still risky.


Good luck, and hope the peace continues, in your particular household.
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Old 02-18-2012, 02:30 AM   #11 (permalink)
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From what ive read on here , most will say NO. But i tend to disagree. I think it mainly is determined by your demeanor . With 2 males YOU MUST BE ALPHA!!!! 2 male dobermans are just like 2 human brothers. Every once in a while they must beat the crap out of each other every now and then just to see who has the edge ... ( those of us who are men with brothers will totally understand this ...... Everyone else wont ). But you have to be Alpha enough to break it up because there will be disagreements every now and then. I dont see a problem with it , hell it doesn't stop people from having kids LOL and i dont know any 2 brothers on this earth that didn't fight like cats and dogs. If 2 Lions can get along in the wild then certainly 2 domesticated dobermans can. Just know what you are in for and make sure you are pack alpha.
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Old 02-18-2012, 06:57 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Donnie,

I agree with you 100% I was just seeing others opinions which looks like most would vote against it. I have had success with them, even get compliments from their vet on how easy going and good tempered they are. They occasionally go to day care and have no issues with other dogs. So is this a result of how they were raised or are they not very "Doberman" like? Cause I also am unsure how well they would protect the home if anyone ever entered at night.
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Old 02-18-2012, 07:23 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
I guess I'm wondering what the purpose of your thread was, esp. given the title you chose.

Was it to encourage others reading along to take the same risks, without knowing the level of expertise those readers have, in handling and training?

Or was it kind of a "meh, in your face stupid-know-it-all forum"?

I dunno, just seems like you could have simply posted a pic thread of your two boys, unless part of your purpose was to stir controversy.

I'm actually not one of the louder voices on here about two males together, and have successfully had a peaceable pack or two over the years with multiple males--however I will note there were differences in age, drive, and temperament, as well as breed.

There are some dogs I'd try it with, some not. It's simply risky, as others said, and most here won't encourage risky behavior when caring for pets.

It does seem that many BYB Dobermans don't have a lot of drive and don't seem very, er, for lack of a better way to put it "Doberman-y." I have seen pairs of *that* type of Doberman do better together, but again, still risky.


Good luck, and hope the peace continues, in your particular household.
REALLY??? Thay was your take? Perhaps.. But I also have males, intact and altered. I don't want to throw it anyone's face, just as a contribution to a relevant discussion. One of the boys is Euro bred, and dioes have drive. IF, there were to be a problem I could see it coming from him. But he is 5, so thats help, plus he is extremely well trained. Embarassingly, more so than the others. Not Everyone can have multiple males or multiple females or even multiple dogs. But I think that those that have successfully manged to have this scenario should be at least addressed for their ability! As has been discussed in other thread,ans and as you yourself admit, AGE plays a very improtant part in this dialogue, 2 young enitre males, maybe not a good situation. Probably looking for a problem that will eventually take place. Probably when least expected! Most of this discussion has to utilize commons sense, expereince with the breed, and the DESIRE to make it work. Training, respect certainly dosen't hurt with any SEX!

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Old 02-18-2012, 10:21 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I think the bottom line is, that on this forum we don't want to encourage people to take a chance trying to keep multiple male dobes/dogs in their homes. Doing that could ultimately end up a disaster. We have seen it over and over again here on DT, and the heartache it causes everyone involved when the crap hits the fan. Most people are ill equipped to handle what happens when two male dobes 80-100# decide one day that they hate each other and can no longer live in peace. All the alpha crap in the world won't change the fact that from then on you can never leave them alone together, ever. You will always have to be careful. The average family doesn't want or need that kind of stress in their lives. Rescues are full of male dobes with same sex aggression, it's written in our breed description. Some do make it work successfully, but like your dogs, their dogs are very well trained and they do not ever leave them alone together ever. They are always supervised, others keep their males separate and never let them interact. Some only allow them to run and play with muzzles on, others don't let them rough house ever. The one person on this forum who has kept multiple males for more then 50 years was my mentor during the short time I had the two boys, I listened to what she told me and it worked. I would not want to have to do that for 10 years, if you are up for it, that's your choice and right, just be careful encouraging others to take that chance with out learning all they need to know to have it be successful. I hope some of our seasoned members chime in here, as they have far more experience keeping multiple males then my short time.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:54 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I did not intend to "encourage" others, was sharing how mine are I guess. Again maybe they do not have that doberman drive, but knowing them as I do I am fairly confident they will never have an issue. I crate trained both until about a year and a half since then theyve been in the house and are unsupervised during the day together. And I hope I dont jinx myself but I would call them two peas in a pod.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:31 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I did not intend to "encourage" others, was sharing how mine are I guess. Again maybe they do not have that doberman drive, but knowing them as I do I am fairly confident they will never have an issue. I crate trained both until about a year and a half since then theyve been in the house and are unsupervised during the day together. And I hope I dont jinx myself but I would call them two peas in a pod.
You are already asking for trouble with two males and yet you let them free roam together without supervision?

I TRULY hope that you don't have to come home to see the results of a fight that you were not around to break apart (though, fights with dogs that size are hard to break apart with only one person). Thanks to my job I've seen the outcomes of such fights when people start bringing only one dog into daycare because the other is dead.
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
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My dogs let each other mount one another with no issue (they wouldnt let another dog do so), as I said can eat from the same bowl with no issue and been doing this for 2 and a half years now. Most the time they look like this, except when I leave Im sure they are on the couch:





and at the vet:


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Old 02-18-2012, 12:38 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Donnie View Post
From what ive read on here , most will say NO. But i tend to disagree. I think it mainly is determined by your demeanor . With 2 males YOU MUST BE ALPHA!!!! 2 male dobermans are just like 2 human brothers. Every once in a while they must beat the crap out of each other every now and then just to see who has the edge ... ( those of us who are men with brothers will totally understand this ...... Everyone else wont ). But you have to be Alpha enough to break it up because there will be disagreements every now and then. I dont see a problem with it , hell it doesn't stop people from having kids LOL and i dont know any 2 brothers on this earth that didn't fight like cats and dogs. If 2 Lions can get along in the wild then certainly 2 domesticated dobermans can. Just know what you are in for and make sure you are pack alpha.
This post shows that you have no clue about dog behavior. You can be as "alpha" as you want and it will not stop two dogs from getting into a fight.

There are instances of two male dobermans getting along. It happens, but by far the NORM is they won't. To come on this forum which is primarily for pet owners and give out opinions on a situation that can be downright dangerous using false logic and complete lack of knowledge of the breed, is well in my opinion irresponsible. Sorry, it is.

Everyone here commenting are doing so because they want those who may not know about this issue to get a good sense that FOR THE MOST PART it is NOT a good idea to have two males in the same household. I have the same opinion and I have been a breeder/owner/handler for going on 30 years now.

I would have more respect for your opinion if you seem to be aware of the situation yet were managing it well, rather than this nonsense about kids fighting and lions as back up for your logic. For your information, lion prides consist mainly of females and their offspring and juvenile males with one dominant male in the pride. Nature has set up male to male aggression for a reason, and that is natural selection. It surfaces in most mammals including humans although domestication (or civilization) has reduced the tendency somewhat.

I know you will take offense to this post but I get real tired of people coming on this list and arguing FOR multiple males in a household and completely disregarding the fact that situations like yours are RARE.
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:40 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bvarmuza View Post
I did not intend to "encourage" others, was sharing how mine are I guess. Again maybe they do not have that doberman drive, but knowing them as I do I am fairly confident they will never have an issue. I crate trained both until about a year and a half since then theyve been in the house and are unsupervised during the day together. And I hope I dont jinx myself but I would call them two peas in a pod.
See my post to "donnie". Ditto to you.

Leaving two males unsupervised in a house is asking for trouble. Plain and simple. Good on you that you have not had an issue yet. Let's hope it stays that way.
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Old 02-18-2012, 01:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I don't see why not... I had two Dobermans and a Pitt Bull all males and within one month old apart of each other living together just fine. It's not like wolf packs only have one male in them.
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Old 02-18-2012, 01:26 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I don't see why not... I had two Dobermans and a Pitt Bull all males and within one month old apart of each other living together just fine. It's not like wolf packs only have one male in them.
I would say you have been extaordinarily lucky. I love pits, but dog agression is pretty much inherent in the breed. I'm not saying all pits are DA, but the vast majority have some degree of DA. Dobes as a breed are prone to same-sex agression, espcially males. Just out of curiosity, how long did they live together?
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Old 02-18-2012, 01:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I don't see why not... I had two Dobermans and a Pitt Bull all males and within one month old apart of each other living together just fine. It's not like wolf packs only have one male in them.
Please don't use wolf packs as an example unless you really have done your research.

Wild wolf packs usually consist of a dominant breeding pair and their offspring. It can include juvenile males and sometimes adult subservient males, however sexually mature individuals will offshoot from the original pack and form their own breeding pair.

Dominant pack leaders can and will enforce subservient behavior.

From Wolfbehavior:

Wolves within a pack may also behave aggressively towards a low-ranking omega wolf. Dominant wolves will often pounce on and ambush such a low-ranking wolf if it approaches the pack too closely. In addition, minor disagreements often occur while a pack is feeding on a carcass. It is not true that dominant wolves can take food from a subservient pack member. In wild (Mech, 1999) and captive (Mech, 1970) situations, subservient wolves will protect pieces of food in their possession from being taken by dominant wolves.

Interestingly, it has been noted that dominance contests in wild packs are less common than dominance contests in captive packs (Mech,1999). Most studies on wolf behavior involve captive packs, since wild wolves are rare and difficult to observe. However, Arctic wolves (Canis lupus arctos) are somewhat easier for researchers to observe than other wolves, since they are not as shy around humans because they have not been hunted and persecuted as extensively by humans as wolves at lower latitudes have. During thirteen summers of observing wild Arctic wolf packs, Mech (1999) did not observe any major dominance contests within the packs. It was noted that most wolves within packs dispersed from their natal packs before they reached sexual maturity at age two, so pack hierarchy was always stable , with no fights over breeding privileges occurring. Young wolves were always subservient towards dominant wolves (typically their parents), with displays of active and passive aggression being observed. The breeding ("alpha") female wolves always approached breeding male ("alpha") wolves in a subservient manner, with one exception where a male wolf approached his mate at her den when pups were present (Mech, 1999).


Wolves are highly social creatures with a very specific list of pack behaviors, reenforced generation after generation in the wild. The subservient behavior serves a specific purpose. Domestic canines have, through selective breeding lost some of these behaviors or had others altered due to mans interference. Simply put, you cannot equate domestic dog behavior in the same context as a wolf pack. Your analogy would work better if you were talking about beagles.

Many breeds of dogs were bred for pack interaction such as foxhounds, beagles, harriers, etc. In those breeds you do not see the same incidences of male to male aggression because again, selective breeding has produced a dog with a specific function and behavior modifiers. In the case if a doberman, they were not bred to be pack animals, rather personal protection dogs and thus more incidences of aggression within a group.
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Old 02-18-2012, 01:56 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Folks even thinking about keeping two male Dobermans under the same roof should take heed to what longtime breeders say, including Starlaine K9. Having owned the breed for over 40 years, I would NEVER consider owning two males period as the risks are just far too great for all hell to break loose with little or no warning. Dogs could be seriously injured or even killed and anyone attempting to break a fight up could be seriously injured. Moreover, two males might live together peacefully for even years, until the day they decide to try to kill each other. Then what? Crate one or the other 24/7 for the rest of their lives! Not a way that I want my dogs to live and enjoy life.

I have known Bonnie Wittrock for years and there are few who have her understanding of what makes this breed tick temperament wise and share her level of expertise in training and canine behavior. She only keeps one male under her own roof----and will not consider selling a male pup into a household with another male. Enough said.
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Old 02-18-2012, 02:01 PM   #24 (permalink)
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one more comment...

..to those of you with multiple males.

One day you just may have a problem. I guarantee that it won't be pretty. You will have convinced yourself otherwise and most likely ignored the warning signs because you are so convinced you are right or you just don't have a clue.

Enough said from me too.
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Old 02-18-2012, 02:04 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I wish you the best of luck. In my heart I believe the time will come.

I challenge anyone to say their two males were any more loving toward each other than my two. Until the two times they fought to the death, at least in their minds it was to the death. Once over possibly a frog and the second time because Wheeler jumped off a wall and mistakenly brushed Walker's ear.

Other than those two times, they slept together, ate together and were not jealous over the attention in my home.

Unless you are a trained handler, I would not suggest owning two males and absolutely never in a million years allow two male Dobermans unattended outside together. I believe they take on a different personality outside.

When these "friends" fought, each had his throat cut, Walker's legs were torn up pretty badly and the top of his head was cut open from ear to ear.





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