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Old 01-02-2013, 11:04 PM   #126 (permalink)
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My two cents

After reading many of these posts and a couple of the links, especially the one about training dogs and the different breeds. I got a say a lot of this doesn't make much sense. I've been lucky enough to have a dobie in my life for all 57 years of it and luckily I haven't had one that I wouldn't trust with my life. I don't remember the specifics of the dog I grew up with, but sparkle was the house dog and did her job very well. The only time she ever showed any aggression is when the neighborhood bully hit me with something I was young and this was the early 60s and went through the screen door to chase him back to his house, while leaving up a reminder of the encounter on his butt, when the police arrived and found out who was the encounter was dismissed. After Sparkle. My mother had a Cairn terrier, which was the most fearless animal I've ever seen, especially for a 20 pound dog. Towards the end of that dog's life. I bought Rhonda the absolute love of my life. I called a lot of breeders and specifically asked if they had a pup with feet like pancakes, and that in their opinion be too big to show which was probably the smartest thing to say as size did not matter to me, conformity, looks and breeding were much more important. This one on for a while until a woman said come on over I have your dog. I wasn't disappointed. Rhonda was the most regal looking dog I've ever owned the dog came with me everywhere I went, and bonding was taken to a completely different level. At that point in time I was a peace officer and was training with Warren Eckstein (look him up) who was one of the better trainers back then and was trying to get the Nassau County police contract and use my dog and four others from other small police departments as demo dogs in exchange for training. There were only two Doibes in this group. The other three were shepherds, these dogs performed unbelievably they were trained to track, crowd control, attack, obstacle course, and a few other things as far as there being the difference between shepherds and Dobermans. I didn't see any. Except for the bite shepherds have a different way of hitting the suit and the Dobermans had there's as far as tracking went. A dog will either use its nose or it won't Rhonda did and it was an amazing thing to see. As far as there being, shall we say, a competitive rivalry between shepherd people and Dobermans people. Of course there is, just as if you had a Ferrari and your neighbor had a Lamborghini, you would razz each other while still respecting each other's machine. For the life of me, the only thing that makes any sense to me is that shepherds are probably more comfortable for extended periods of time in the cold. Other than that they both work very well, although, of course, I think the Doberman wins hands down in the looks department, especially when you have a 115 pound female that is solid muscle. I had Rhonda for 11 years and then had put her down to cancer. Then I got Amber.
Amber had so much natural talent as far as aggressive behavior goes that once she was completely, and satisfactorily obedience trained that she needed very little instructions from me. At that point in time I had a liquor store and my customers loved her, although they were all used to Rhonda, Amber was a red and her yellowy eyes freaked out A few people but I still trusted her to socialize with my customers and their children and not worry at all the one strange trait she had, as mentioned in the article that someone gave a link to, her prey was cardboard boxes and could turn when the confetti in under a minute. Amber lived to 11 and then I have to put her down to a spinal cord injury. My avatar is Comet, she just turned 12. December 20 and is also hundred and 12 pounds of solid muscle and can still catch your average criminal. I think there aren't as many Dobermans in police work is there used to be due to lack of availability and as others have said too much breeding for show, I think that may be the biggest reason, as when Rhonda was a puppy, She won every show I had her in which was about 10 wins, until she got big. Then they said too big for a female which I think is nonsense. This is a working dog size shouldn't really enter into it, conformity should. When I can find a picture of her. I will post it. I think many of you will agree she was just magnificent. And the strange thing is, it seemed like she knew it. Just my two cents on the subject.
Thanks for putting up with the ramble.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:34 AM   #127 (permalink)
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^^^^Grizzley1...thks for the story, great experiences shared...enjoyable read.

I once read that GSD's Police dogs are always on a leash while tracking a criminal...because they could run off at distractions, such as a cat or squirrel (in back yard) - sounds like incomplete OB training, to me.
- I always wondered why, their not doing police work off-leash some ??

Our dober girl is +4 months old now and I must say, Kelly is going to be a good watch dog - someone knocked on the front door yesterday and she was all bark & growl...More natural protective instincts, very early on, than our first 2 girls (while grown up Amy always looked out for and protected family, most excellent)...young Kelly had a stronger demeanour and higher pain threshold from day1, with lots of puppy confidence built in.
- from much litter mate rough play - with 8 other boys/girls vs. being puppy crated too much
I think how the pup turns out, has a lot to do with how the breeder interacts the litter in the last 4-5 weeks, after weined off mom and her milk.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:25 AM   #128 (permalink)
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I can't say for certain, but any "tracking" dog that I know of is always leashed. AKC, Search and Rescue, etc. In terms of SAR they are off leash if they are doing HRD or area.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:50 AM   #129 (permalink)
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Great topic ! From what I have read and have had people tell me is something a little different. I have been told that the GSD's tend to be fear biters and are a heavier dog for police, they now prefer the Mals or dutch shepherds. (not to offend GSD's in any way). As for the doberman, I was led to believe that when they were first introduced here they were built a whole lot different, not as elegant and lean and were alot more aggressive, sharp temperments, but, a whole lot more healthier too. A true working line of dog. People couldn't live or want a doberman because of this, not to mention they were not as hmm nice looking either. So the breeders tried to fix some of this, to make them more friendlier and livable for people, but by doing so, they have made them more fragile and have lost some of that drive or nerve of steel. Not to mention less healthier. So if this is true, then maybe the doberman as mentioned before does not do well changing handlers and are not as capable of taking commands. (just saying this was explained to me from breeders and a judge one time when I asked about dobermans)

In my town we have a canine unit and I will ask what types of dogs they use and why. I know that dobermans are not a popular breed here, but it will be interesting to see what they say. I live with a GSD, and I can say he is very clingy and kinda has some anxiety issues when left alone too long, but a real sweetheart. (hate the hair) LOL Maybe it is just a personal preference, or how bout cost too? Eveyone brought up some real valid points and opinions, maybe there is NO right or wrong or definate answer.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:05 AM   #130 (permalink)
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In terms of SAR, I have had other handlers that have worked either Dobermans or GSDs vehemently state they dislike show line dogs and don't find they are suitable for the work.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:43 AM   #131 (permalink)
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I think that everyone has stated some valid reasons. There isn't really just one single reason why you do not see Dobermans in police and military work.

Yes, it is harder and harder to find a Doberman with the temperament suited for the work. Most are too soft and the ones that aren't are not clear headed enough to be dependable wen you need them. From a business perspective, you can take 100 GSDs or Malis and out of that group you will have a higher success rate than with 100 Dobermans and it will likely take less time. I have seen many GSD trainers literally beat the training in them and they take it. A Doberman will shut down and not take abusive training as well GSDs. Malis, generally are more sentive than GSDs, but higher drive and can power through it better and have a faster recovery.

Dobermans can't take the heat or cold as well as the others. The longer coat actually insulates them from the heat as well as the cold.

GSDs have a much more soldier mentality. They follow orders better than Dobermans that may think for themselves too much.

I don't agree that "many more breeders valued the working temperament of the Malinios and German Shepherd Dog over the appearance, while on the other hand too many Dobermann breeders have valued the dog’s appearance over its working temperament." There is the same divide between the Working GSDs and Malis that there is in Dobermans. The GSD breed is just a much, much larger breed in numbers world-wide than Doberman(n)s, so of course you will find more quality working dogs. Also, GSDs have dominated the working sports since their inception so their is a much, much larger pool to draw from. However, make no mistake this is not all GSDs. I have seen many show bred GSDs that were no better than show Dobermans on the working field, even import GSDs with alleged SCH titles that didn't seem to even know what a sleeve was. Malinois are the current darlings of the working sports and with their overall better physical soundness than GSDs I can see why. However, show Malinois and the working ones are so different they seem like a whole different breed in both look, size, and temperament. This is unfortunately the age of specialization in all endeavors. There are few dogs any more that can "do it all".
Once again you hit the nail on the head here with this one. When my husband was a canine officer I asked the same question when he went down to get his GSD and then again when he was going threw training. And they all said in so many words what you stated.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:13 AM   #132 (permalink)
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115 lb well bred female of pure muscle?.....
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:18 AM   #133 (permalink)
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^^^^Grizzley1...thks for the story, great experiences shared...enjoyable read.

I once read that GSD's Police dogs are always on a leash while tracking a criminal...because they could run off at distractions, such as a cat or squirrel (in back yard) - sounds like incomplete OB training, to me.
- I always wondered why, their not doing police work off-leash some ??.
Only speaking of what I know from our local k9 officers (GSD & BMali) the dogs do not track off lead for a couple reasons:

1. The officer needs to stay as close as possible to see the dogs reaction and read the dog. If its 20 yards ahead of them they may miss something the dog is clueing in or off. They work as a team, therefore need to stay as a team.

2. The officer needs to be able to react to and for the dog. They do not want a negative bite. The dog is all wired up and ready to catch the bad guy. The officer needs to determine if the suspect is a threat. Not the dog. In this day and age the criminal can sue the dept if the dog bites when there is not a "threat", "threat" being determined of course by a jury of peers, not someone out risking their life to save others.





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Old 01-03-2013, 11:05 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Great topic ! From what I have read and have had people tell me is something a little different. I have been told that the GSD's tend to be fear biters and are a heavier dog for police, they now prefer the Mals or dutch shepherds. (not to offend GSD's in any way).
Mali's just happen to be the flavor of the day and have in some cases, at least up to just recent times, been able to be purchased cheaper than other working dogs. There are dogs with less than stellar nerves in any breed, especially if they come from crappy breeders. I would say this is much less common with a well bred West German working line GSD than most of the other working breeds, including the Doberman and the Mali. In general the GSD is still the best all around dog for k9 service work. I have a parent of a student of mine who handles a Mali for the Border Patrol. He tells me he much prefers the GSD for that type of work.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:58 AM   #135 (permalink)
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I have personally trained dobes, a mals, and gsds to perform police/military level K9 tasks. Although I love my dobe to death, i can tell you that if i had to do that level training 24/7 I would use a mal every time. Then a dobe, then a gsd. Dobe mature much more slowly than gsds and mals, so it takes significantly longer for them to be as proficient and reliable as the other breeds. Plus dobes tend to be a bit softer and don't handle the corrections as well. Although they are tough as nails in protection, they tend to take handler corrections more personally. GSDs mature more quickly than dobes, but dear god are they whiney. They choose when and where they want to work, and have a tendency to protest if they don't see anything in it for them. Or they see everything is for them, and can't focus lol. They're also a bit slower and more methodical when they work. Mals mature very quickly, more so than any breed I've worked with. They work just for the sake of working, and they don't shut down with corrections. They're excellent problem solvers, like dobes are, but without the sensitivity. So imo, originally gsds replaced dobes because they mature more quickly and aren't as soft. Now mals are starting to replace the gsds because they're the better option.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:28 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Where was your department getting their GSD's? What I have witnessed has been very different as far as working dogs, except the GSD whining. I do agree mals seem to mature quicker. But what I have seen in terms of handling corrections and other aspects, not so much. I also would vehemently disagree about the GSD's taking direction. Again I would ask where they are coming from? It seems to me that many departments are quite indiscriminate in regards to where the dogs come from. If this is the case, at least for the moment, then Mali's are probably a better choice.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:30 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Oh, I just re-read your post. You stated K-9 level tasks. What does that mean?
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:36 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Where was your department getting their GSD's? What I have witnessed has been very different as far as working dogs, except the GSD whining. I do agree mals seem to mature quicker. But what I have seen in terms of handling corrections and other aspects, not so much. I also would vehemently disagree about the GSD's taking direction. Again I would ask where they are coming from? It seems to me that many departments are quite indiscriminate in regards to where the dogs come from. If this is the case, at least for the moment, then Mali's are probably a better choice.
I would agree with this. While Malinois can be hard dogs, they can also be very sensitive. In my area I've noticed a lot of departments that had Malinois are moving back towards primarily having GSDs. While I think Malinois are absolutely suited for the work, I think the training and handling in LE (at least at the local PD level) isn't always particularly a good match for Malinois temperaments.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:41 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Higher level OB, practical agi, scent work, tracking, protection etc. I remember the sheps being a pain in the ass as pups, the dobes were butt hurt a lot, and the mals got it all done asap. my personal mal passed a sch2 ob routine at 6 months with a 92. mock trail of course, but still impressive for his age. i have since sold him to a security firm for narc. now i just have the dobe and focus on pet training.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:43 PM   #140 (permalink)
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I would agree with this. While Malinois can be hard dogs, they can also be very sensitive. In my area I've noticed a lot of departments that had Malinois are moving back towards primarily having GSDs. While I think Malinois are absolutely suited for the work, I think the training and handling in LE (at least at the local PD level) isn't always particularly a good match for Malinois temperaments.
I agree to a certain extent, but the mals i worked with didn't shut down like the gsds and dobes, they tried to come up the leash once or twice but when they realized that wasn't going to change anything they just performed. I'd prefer that to the dogs that shut down and don't want to work for the rest of the day lol
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My4BadDogs (01-04-2013)
Old 01-06-2013, 11:28 PM   #141 (permalink)
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I have another question to this concerning GSD's. If you look at most GSD's now they tend to breed them with their rear ends on the ground practically. (If you understand what I am trying to say) So wouldn't that slow them down alot, or cause them to have alot of hip problems too? I don't personally like the way they look now, but maybe that is the difference in show v.s. working types. Just a thought on how they work compared to mals and dobes or any other working lines. Why do the breeders breed for that look? Just curious.
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:58 AM   #142 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kbroome View Post
Higher level OB, practical agi, scent work, tracking, protection etc. I remember the sheps being a pain in the ass as pups, the dobes were butt hurt a lot, and the mals got it all done asap. my personal mal passed a sch2 ob routine at 6 months with a 92. mock trail of course, but still impressive for his age. i have since sold him to a security firm for narc. now i just have the dobe and focus on pet training.
I'm having a difficult time believing this. That's quite the accomplishment; do you have a video or pics? I would think the jumps would put a lot of pressure on his growing limbs.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:15 AM   #143 (permalink)
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I have another question to this concerning GSD's. If you look at most GSD's now they tend to breed them with their rear ends on the ground practically. (If you understand what I am trying to say) So wouldn't that slow them down alot, or cause them to have alot of hip problems too? I don't personally like the way they look now, but maybe that is the difference in show v.s. working types. Just a thought on how they work compared to mals and dobes or any other working lines. Why do the breeders breed for that look? Just curious.
Yes, those are showline dogs you are describing. Most working line GSD's are pretty square with some having maybe a slight angulation/slope. Most showline GSD's that I have seen, are shitters when it comes to working drive. It seems to me more so than most Euro Dobermann showline dogs.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:18 AM   #144 (permalink)
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I'm having a difficult time believing this. That's quite the accomplishment; do you have a video or pics? I would think the jumps would put a lot of pressure on his growing limbs.
I would want to know who the judge was. With some of them I could believe almost anything.
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:40 PM   #145 (permalink)
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How ironic..I have been researching this and just sent an e-mail to DOD, "why are Dobies not used anymore" I have had 3 different Dobermans as service dogs, I am a paraplegic and would never get another breed..............7/30/2013. I wanted to find a veteran Dobie handler and write a story, and bring some good attention back to the breed...can anyone help or know of a handler that had dobie..they saved so many soilders in WW2, now they are just used in moviesas the "bad dog or guard dog" they are smart wonderfully smart and loving...please help save our Dobermans .Beth
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alys (07-31-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 04:18 AM   #146 (permalink)
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Just watch ' War dogs of the Pacific ' amazing,wonderful Dobes! (and other breeds,of course)
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Old 10-25-2014, 12:22 AM   #147 (permalink)
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Sorry for jumping on an old thread.

I had a friend that was a SNCO at the Lackland AFB Military Working Dog facility, and a career K9 police officer.
He told me basically Dobe's think too much and don't always blindly do what instructed if the circumstances are chaotic (they may know better, and they know it), and also that the breed has been watered down by "the show ring crowd" over the years and losing "working ability".

Anyway, for what it's worth.
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