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Old 11-26-2012, 07:25 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Vintage pic guess...

Beauceron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Docked tail screws up our guess (wife found pics of old school Beaucerons, but they are natural tailed) but it's best guess...
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:32 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by monicaei View Post
Vintage pic guess...

Beauceron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Docked tail screws up our guess (wife found pics of old school Beaucerons, but they are natural tailed) but it's best guess...
Ah, Beaucerons, I never think of them! The dogs in the picture are (I feel) too light to be Rottweilers but too heavy to be Dobermans (maybe? You know those Euro lines....) so that's a good guess.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:36 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Well I am quite amazed I thought the days of choking and flanking was gone. Clearly I am nieve in thinking things had progressed.
So do people still do stuff like correcting into the sleeve?
How does correction for out at a distance work? I imagine people are using an e-collar?
Why would you train a dog that is so mental it can't grasp the concept of 'outing' from a slipped sleeve?
Matt, wanted to touch on Rosamburg's quote of this "The problem with an e-collar, and pinch and especially the flanking method, is you can create more fight drive in the dog as the conflict is then between the handler and dog over the out.. very bad situation. Usually a dog that has been properly trained early on what the out is only needs one or two of these reminders. When hanging up the dog (choking it out) is the main method of teaching an out, it is a problem in my opinion. "

In our discussions, I have told you about atleast two males (ones alive currently that I personally can attest to), who are the type of dog Rosamburg is talking about here. If Bogey is e-collared on the bite, he fights harder. If the other male gets physical correction whether flank or prong, that means 'game on' in his mind. I don't in anyway think that what Rosamburg is saying means the dogs should not be trained.

Out of tons upon tons of perfect outs, he is correct in saying that a strong dog will test that boundary eventually. And the alternatives to choking will also make that worse depending upon the dog. (Some simply don't have high enough fight drive). Now why should a dog who loves the fight not be worked/trained? I'd be more tempted to want that dog and/or its progeny.

I do understand that whole "if you have to take great lengths to accomplish 'x' thing, then why bother?" though. Someone had a quote on facebook the other day that stated:

"If there ever comes a day where I must use a table lifting my dog to boost his confidence in bitework, remind me that said dog should never be another dog's parents."

(Not an exact quote but you get the point)
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:38 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GingerGunlock View Post
Ah, Beaucerons, I never think of them! The dogs in the picture are (I feel) too light to be Rottweilers but too heavy to be Dobermans (maybe? You know those Euro lines....) so that's a good guess.
Back then, there weren't overweight oversized, thick everything, Euro show dobermans. Lol most of the pictures from that era are more terrier-ish.

Looks much more like rottweiler or something of the sort. But idk what they used to look like either!
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:20 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GingerGunlock View Post

In that article, there is a picture from 1915 of dogs pulling a canon in Belgium...what the heck are those? They're all harnessed and muzzled, though clearly docked.
Found this same picture on a rottie site. They are in fact Rottweilers. Considering the breed was only revived in 1907, there seems to be quite a variety in the appearance of Rotties at the time.

A couple other pictures I stumbled on



I really like the look of this dog on the 'right' of the pack. Boy do they look different!
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:31 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Asmit View Post
Found this same picture on a rottie site. They are in fact Rottweilers. Considering the breed was only revived in 1907, there seems to be quite a variety in the appearance of Rotties at the time.

Oh neat, good sleuthing!

(The "Euro" thing was meant to be tongue in cheek, apologies)
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:31 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Can someone clear up for me what sort of work dogs would do for the police or army?

I was surprised when the focus turned to bite & protection work, as I'd assumed that that was only a part of the training. I think it might be difficult to force train a dog to sniff out drugs for instance. (I've seen more search dogs & drug sniffing dogs than I have guard dogs - not sure if that is the norm.)
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:42 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Can someone clear up for me what sort of work dogs would do for the police or army?

I was surprised when the focus turned to bite & protection work, as I'd assumed that that was only a part of the training. I think it might be difficult to force train a dog to sniff out drugs for instance. (I've seen more search dogs & drug sniffing dogs than I have guard dogs - not sure if that is the norm.)
Kate
I can only speak for our local agency. Our dogs are dual trained in patrol & drugs.

"Patrol" is tracking - lost people, criminal tracks for people who run, building searchs for suspects hiding inside, apprehension (bites) to capture a suspect, area searchs for evidence of a crime (as in someone throws a gun from a moving MV, the dog could search the area)
In patrol the dog is trained to protect the handler, like schtuzhund they must decide if someone or something is a threat and act accordingly (guard dog)

"Drugs" is exactly that, they are trained and sniff for drugs in cars, homes, open areas ect.

Some police and military have specility dogs that are only used for one thing like:
Explosives (bombs, etc)
Cadever dogs (search for dead bodies)
Fire dogs (search fire crime scenes for excelerants, etc)

I'm sure there are more, but those are the first that come to mind
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:39 PM   #109 (permalink)
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^^^^

Thanks!
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:02 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Yes. This topic is about military and police dogs. That kind of FIGHT is what they are looking for. These aren't sport/club dogs, and it's life and death. The FIGHT is what they need.

In reality, dobermans are not these kind of dogs anymore. Due to their popularity, that is a good thing (I KNOW, UNPOPULAR OPINION) but its the truth. So so so few people can deal with "real deal" (I like that term, Rosamburg) dogs.

I have known a couple K9s. Completely different dog than the family snuggle bunny. Honestly, the one down the street scares the bejeesus out of me. He's never so much as growled at us, but it's an expression thing. We give him a WIDE berth
The problem with a lot of military or police trainers is that it has been passed down, from head of depts. to relatively inexperienced handlers. Actually a lot of police depts allow a handler to work only one dog and then they are done. This means many police handlers, at least in these depts with these kind of policies, don't have a lot of experience handling dogs. In addition the mindset of many police trainers is that they are not too open to new ideas in training. Often the level of training is not that high.

Last edited by Rosamburg; 11-27-2012 at 01:05 AM..
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:13 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GingerGunlock View Post
....I guess this means nobody has any links about those German Air Force Dobermans, or the Dobermans guarding Germans in Afghanistan?
I kind of think that post came out of the interview a number of years ago with Manfred Lerner, then the owner of Bayern Kennels. I think he was an German Air Force trainer. I don't know if Dobermann's are used as such. It is possible but I would be skeptical. What adds to that possibility to me is that he also in recent years has used a lot of show dogs for whatever reason in his breedings, that poster mentioned such breedings. I could be wrong, of course.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:21 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Seriously people are training dogs they need to choke off to out?
Needing to flank a dog is enough for me and not something I like doing, for my own safety.
Wow they are braver than me. I'm not of a mind to train a dog like that, each to their own and just my opinion.
Rosemburg is probably correct a dog with that much 'drive' to fight is not for my ability/experience.
Obviously any dog I have trained in protection it's a case of bite and lets get the hell out of here.
A thought has just occurred to me that I am overtraining the out in too early a stage which I think rosemburg or Asmit or Sonterra said in my 'loss of bite' thread which sorta clears things up a bit for me.
I don't like to have to use compulsion for 'outs' which is why I probably err on the side of caution.

The forgotten was in ' ' as in the dog is so wired he is not listening/is being disobedient.
The best way to train the out is to be beside the dog (or preferrably puppy). Make the tug dead by taking it to the ground and either holding it with your right and or stand on it. You then pull the collar into the tug. This will invoke the reverse response reflex in the dog or puppy. After the release give the out command (not before). Then make it live again or induce the dog or puppy to become active and barking for it to be made live. This way it does not see the out as a problem but as a means to get the reward.

I would personally never flank the dog to out. A short choke would be a better alternative and much safer for the handler. I was at a club early on, that did a lot of flanking, from there they would move to an e-collar. It seems to me they have a lot of problems with outing.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:32 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
The problem with a lot of military or police trainers is that it has been passed down, from head of depts. to relatively inexperienced handlers. Actually a lot of police depts allow a handler to work only one dog and then they are done. This means many police handlers, at least in these depts with these kind of policies, don't have a lot of experience handling dogs. In addition the mindset of many police trainers is that they are not too open to new ideas in training. Often the level of training is not that high.
Very well said! Budgets are another real bitch these days. There may be a seminar that a K9 unit wants to attend, but their agency can't let them take cruisers to the event, won't pay their fuel, won't pay their hotel rooms, or pay them overtime to attend, and in many cases all of the above. Do you know what the outcome is? The officers don't go to the event.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:58 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Matt, wanted to touch on Rosamburg's quote of this "The problem with an e-collar, and pinch and especially the flanking method, is you can create more fight drive in the dog as the conflict is then between the handler and dog over the out.. very bad situation. Usually a dog that has been properly trained early on what the out is only needs one or two of these reminders. When hanging up the dog (choking it out) is the main method of teaching an out, it is a problem in my opinion. "

In our discussions, I have told you about atleast two males (ones alive currently that I personally can attest to), who are the type of dog Rosamburg is talking about here. If Bogey is e-collared on the bite, he fights harder. If the other male gets physical correction whether flank or prong, that means 'game on' in his mind. I don't in anyway think that what Rosamburg is saying means the dogs should not be trained.

Out of tons upon tons of perfect outs, he is correct in saying that a strong dog will test that boundary eventually. And the alternatives to choking will also make that worse depending upon the dog. (Some simply don't have high enough fight drive). Now why should a dog who loves the fight not be worked/trained? I'd be more tempted to want that dog and/or its progeny.

Indeed I agree. I was talking personally and in the past tense.
"I would not (have) continued to train this dog"
I have no problem at all in other people training dogs like this, in fact i can easily see the need and desire for a dog like this for bitesports and police work.
When I have trained for PP I am looking to train the dog to do the minimum required in order for us to neutralise the situation. I would not have been training for take downs or apprehensions per se, I know how to do it, just I would not want my dog to do it in all but the most extreme of instances. This is because I am not a police officer nor am I interested in detaining the perp until the police arrive and they can be judged and punished by society. My intention is for the perp to fk off and leave us alone in the moment and in the future. In fact I would rather the police didn't become involved for my and my dogs freedom and safety. Besides it was very rare they would bother turning up anyway. however if my dog seriously mauled/injured or killed someone, whatever that persons intentions, you can bet they would be up in a flash.


I do understand that whole "if you have to take great lengths to accomplish 'x' thing, then why bother?" though. Someone had a quote on facebook the other day that stated:

"If there ever comes a day where I must use a table lifting my dog to boost his confidence in bitework, remind me that said dog should never be another dog's parents." Correct and if the dog needs to be on a table, the table is in the wrong field. The person may want to re-evaluate their own temperament to check for retardedness also.

(Not an exact quote but you get the point)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
The best way to train the out is to be beside the dog (or preferrably puppy). Make the tug dead by taking it to the ground and either holding it with your right and or stand on it. You then pull the collar into the tug. This will invoke the reverse response reflex in the dog or puppy. After the release give the out command (not before). Then make it live again or induce the dog or puppy to become active and barking for it to be made live. This way it does not see the out as a problem but as a means to get the reward.

This is how I used to train outs and still do but without the leash pressure and often off the floor. I rely more on reinforcing/rewarding the choice of letting go. A longer process yes but in theory more reliable (?) I started doing this, believe it or not, after having read it in an interview/book (can't remember) from Ceasar Millan!! i say reliable in question marks as I am not so sure now. My theory is that if the dog learns to out without any leash pressure then the cue of leash pressure is not needed later on in training.

I would personally never flank the dog to out. A short choke would be a better alternative and much safer for the handler. I was at a club early on, that did a lot of flanking, from there they would move to an e-collar. It seems to me they have a lot of problems with outing.

Yes flanking is not my most favourite past time even with 'watered down drive' dogs, and particularly something I never do with EBT's as you are too low down and off balance and they are buggers for being in the zone. Personally I have found choking them off very infective with them also but I believe they are pre-wired to hold on no matter what. By the time you have choked them enough for them to let go they would have passed out.
Thanks for the replies. I would like to start a thread dealing particularly with the psychology of bite training if thats ok with everyone as I think I have managed to derail this thread as per usual. I would be very appreciative of any posts in it also.

Note on a post I found whilst reading the rest of the thread after I stuck my nose in:

Quote:
Puppy Training & Puppy Care - Articles on Puppies | DailyPuppy.com
dog-breeds-used-in-the-police-
world/3094c163-2fdc-2b0b-733a-89952c4aa3b4
Dyfed Powys Police | Heddlu Dyfed Powys
what-we-do/dog-section/dog-breeds
Just came across these two sites saying something different but still what our friends have mentioned in above posts.. But yet It is worth reading...
Well would you look at that, from a post dated 07/12/11 and from someone in New Delhi! the matrix is real I tell ye seriously though it sorta shows how small the world is because of the internet.
Seems they must have binned their breeding program.
http://www.dyfed-powys.police.uk/en/...do/dog-section

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Old 11-27-2012, 04:28 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Also I have re-read the last couple of pages and I think I have identified where the confusion has come from. Initially I thought we were discussing a dog that needed to be choked off in order to LEARN to out, as it is late at night when this forum is active I am not at my most lucid (?) and managed to pass over a few important details somehow, or they didn't sink in maybe.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:34 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GingerGunlock View Post
In that article, there is a picture from 1915 of dogs pulling a canon in Belgium...what the heck are those? They're all harnessed and muzzled, though clearly docked.



.
Remember not all dogs were "purebred" back then. They were regional and bred to work, and whatever worked got bred. To me they look like docked swissy's or entelbauers.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:42 AM   #117 (permalink)
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I cannot say enough about the reverse response reaction in the dog. We use it in almost every area of training, especially in obedience. It is the absolute opposite of compulsion. When it comes to teaching outs it makes the job so much easier it is ridiculous. For some dogs making the tug dead is enough. My last dog, at 10 months of age, you could stand on a tug for 15 minutes and she would still be unlikely to let go. I was not training with Lance at the time and was unaware of the reverse response reflex in training. We would never move onto protection training and a sleeve until the out with a tug was clear to the dog.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:03 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Matt this is for you.

In protection, you teach your dog that the MOST important thing in the world to it - is the tug-->sleeve-->bite suit, etc. Not a kinda important thing, not somewhat important. The MOST important. When my dog sees a tug, sleeve, bitesuit, I want him to lose his mind and all he can think about is "I NEED THAT NOW!!". In fact if I do my job right, and I train a correct word association, my dog will not need to see a sleeve or bitesuit. With a simple command from he, he will turn on for whatever I tell him (look up bart bellon's dog that does a blind search with no one on the blind).

If you build a dog to this level, do you honestly think, if you walk up and ask it ever so nicely, to out, that it will instantly release the thing it has worked so hard to get?

It has been proven (I think it was auburn??) that in dogs bred a certain way, when they are biting something, the brain releases seratonin. The feelings of satiation flood the body. To to the dog the ability to hang on to the bite is the ultimate reward (in dogs bred a certain way).

So asking it "nicely" doesn't work.

A tried and true method we use in ring is the two tug method. the dog is biting tug one, and you place tug two right in front of the dog, ask for the out and reward with play when the dog transfers. We do the same thing on the suit/sleeve. Initially the reward tug is shown to the dog right in front of its eyes on the suit/sleeve and rewarded with play when it transfers.

If you build a dog in balance (ie you build its drive for the bite and its obedience to the handler in tandem) you have a beautiful working dog, that loves to bite and is obedient. However even this balanced dog will need reminders, corrections/complusion along the way to remind him of the balance of bitework.

However there are many times dogs are built too high for the bite without balance. And there are many reasons why a person would do this, some good intentioned and some not so good intentioned, some on purpose and some not.

KNVP dogs in particular, get standing ovations when they do not out.

As well in bitework, you want to desensitize the dog to distractions but also to "objection" from the decoy. If you have a personal protection dog, and the bad guy yells, or hits the dog, and they let go and run away:

a) you are left to defend yourself
b) your dog could be potentially wrecked for life because it will believe it can't win - the dog always need to have an unshakable belief that they WILL beat whatever they come up against.

So in training you will get rough, you will yell, you will show the dog that things may get dicey but if they work thru it they win. In ring we actually train the dog that these things "ie stick hits" are what triggers the BIG win, so when a dog recieved a stick hit, it actually powers up because it knows that leads to ultimate satiation.

However showing the dog roughness, in an effort to ensure the dog never walks into a situation blind, it also desensitizes the dog to corrections. That added to the jacked up mental state of a dog doing bitework, usually means that the dog will need an increased correction to even feel it. It is an adrenelin rush for the dog.

I will say one thing about choking off a bite. I do it, I do it with young puppies, and sometimes with adult dogs lacking drive. And by "choking" I mean I hold it off its feet by a flat collar until it drops the object. Feet about an inch off the ground. Usually takes about 1-2 seconds, with a stubborn puppy maybe 3. WHY? Because amazingly enough this builds drive. Have you ever had someone hold you back from something you wanted? Someone holding you back makes you want that thing soooo much more. As soon as the puppy drops the toy they are IMMEDIATELY reengaged. When the puppy has a solid grasp of the "game" of tug work, maybe even sleeve work, then we teach them the two tug method, or guards with rebites. The dogs I have developed this way in my club are very balanced, solid workers with no issues with outs. However the choking out is never given a name, the two tug method gives the "out" command.

I used the same method with my adult dog to build drive for a reward tug in the presence of a decoy.

It is very easy for a person to "build" a monster, especially one that doesn't know any better. A dog that will withstand ANY correction with ANY device to bite. VERY VERY easy. I know because I have one, and I made him what he is - when I didn't know any better.

A good working dog has balance. A strong desire for the decoy and a strong desire to listen to the handler. If a dog is too worried about his handler, he will not be a good working dog either. First you build drive, then you add obedience.

One last note: I believe Sweden and Denmark have dobermann's in their military.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:27 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Remember not all dogs were "purebred" back then. They were regional and bred to work, and whatever worked got bred. To me they look like docked swissy's or entelbauers.
It's kind of hard to tell if they are tricolored or B/T from the picture. I also thought of Entlebucher, but don't forget, back then, Rotties were not the bulked-up, heavy-headed dogs they are today. Comparing a dog from the early 20th century, and a modern show rottie, well, a lot of people might not even realise they were the same breed.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:57 PM   #120 (permalink)
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It's kind of hard to tell if they are tricolored or B/T from the picture. I also thought of Entlebucher, but don't forget, back then, Rotties were not the bulked-up, heavy-headed dogs they are today. Comparing a dog from the early 20th century, and a modern show rottie, well, a lot of people might not even realise they were the same breed.
The dogs in that pic, looks too "mastiff" especially the rear ends. And the HUGE "tan" markings. The only mastiff breed I can think of that is black is the entelbuch (I can never spell that right) or the swissy which I think has a shorter coat?
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:18 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Thanks for the answers people! even if it isn't my thread
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:22 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonterra2002 View Post
Matt this is for you.

In protection, you teach your dog that the MOST important thing in the world to it - is the tug-->sleeve-->bite suit, etc. Not a kinda important thing, not somewhat important. The MOST important. When my dog sees a tug, sleeve, bitesuit, I want him to lose his mind and all he can think about is "I NEED THAT NOW!!". In fact if I do my job right, and I train a correct word association, my dog will not need to see a sleeve or bitesuit. With a simple command from he, he will turn on for whatever I tell him (look up bart bellon's dog that does a blind search with no one on the blind).

If you build a dog to this level, do you honestly think, if you walk up and ask it ever so nicely, to out, that it will instantly release the thing it has worked so hard to get?

It has been proven (I think it was auburn??) that in dogs bred a certain way, when they are biting something, the brain releases seratonin. The feelings of satiation flood the body. To to the dog the ability to hang on to the bite is the ultimate reward (in dogs bred a certain way).

So asking it "nicely" doesn't work.

A tried and true method we use in ring is the two tug method. the dog is biting tug one, and you place tug two right in front of the dog, ask for the out and reward with play when the dog transfers. We do the same thing on the suit/sleeve. Initially the reward tug is shown to the dog right in front of its eyes on the suit/sleeve and rewarded with play when it transfers.

If you build a dog in balance (ie you build its drive for the bite and its obedience to the handler in tandem) you have a beautiful working dog, that loves to bite and is obedient. However even this balanced dog will need reminders, corrections/complusion along the way to remind him of the balance of bitework.

However there are many times dogs are built too high for the bite without balance. And there are many reasons why a person would do this, some good intentioned and some not so good intentioned, some on purpose and some not.

KNVP dogs in particular, get standing ovations when they do not out.

As well in bitework, you want to desensitize the dog to distractions but also to "objection" from the decoy. If you have a personal protection dog, and the bad guy yells, or hits the dog, and they let go and run away:

a) you are left to defend yourself
b) your dog could be potentially wrecked for life because it will believe it can't win - the dog always need to have an unshakable belief that they WILL beat whatever they come up against.

So in training you will get rough, you will yell, you will show the dog that things may get dicey but if they work thru it they win. In ring we actually train the dog that these things "ie stick hits" are what triggers the BIG win, so when a dog recieved a stick hit, it actually powers up because it knows that leads to ultimate satiation.

However showing the dog roughness, in an effort to ensure the dog never walks into a situation blind, it also desensitizes the dog to corrections. That added to the jacked up mental state of a dog doing bitework, usually means that the dog will need an increased correction to even feel it. It is an adrenelin rush for the dog.

I will say one thing about choking off a bite. I do it, I do it with young puppies, and sometimes with adult dogs lacking drive. And by "choking" I mean I hold it off its feet by a flat collar until it drops the object. Feet about an inch off the ground. Usually takes about 1-2 seconds, with a stubborn puppy maybe 3. WHY? Because amazingly enough this builds drive. Have you ever had someone hold you back from something you wanted? Someone holding you back makes you want that thing soooo much more. As soon as the puppy drops the toy they are IMMEDIATELY reengaged. When the puppy has a solid grasp of the "game" of tug work, maybe even sleeve work, then we teach them the two tug method, or guards with rebites. The dogs I have developed this way in my club are very balanced, solid workers with no issues with outs. However the choking out is never given a name, the two tug method gives the "out" command.

I used the same method with my adult dog to build drive for a reward tug in the presence of a decoy.

It is very easy for a person to "build" a monster, especially one that doesn't know any better. A dog that will withstand ANY correction with ANY device to bite. VERY VERY easy. I know because I have one, and I made him what he is - when I didn't know any better.

A good working dog has balance. A strong desire for the decoy and a strong desire to listen to the handler. If a dog is too worried about his handler, he will not be a good working dog either. First you build drive, then you add obedience.

One last note: I believe Sweden and Denmark have dobermann's in their military.
What a GREAT post!
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:14 PM   #123 (permalink)
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I concur
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:27 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonterra2002 View Post

KNVP dogs in particular, get standing ovations when they do not out.e BIG win, so when a dog recieved a stick hit, it actually powers up because it knows that leads to ultimate satiation. .
There is a story about Reinhard Lindner working a dog of his, that had difficulty outing. When someone sort of gave him a bit of crap about it he said, that's ok. This is a good dog, he would get 20 breedings. But a dog that is difficult for Rienhard Lindner to handle will get 50 breedings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonterra2002 View Post
Have you ever had someone hold you back from something you wanted? Someone holding you back makes you want that thing soooo much more. .
Reverse response reflex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonterra2002 View Post
A good working dog has balance. A strong desire for the decoy and a strong desire to listen to the handler. If a dog is too worried about his handler, he will not be a good working dog either. First you build drive, then you add obedience.

.
Very true. To take it even further, there are many dogs that have power. What is impressive however is when they have both power and control. I have had people send me video of dogs that show a lot of power but no control. My reaction is that when they can show that kind of power and also control then we really have something.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:31 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Remember not all dogs were "purebred" back then. They were regional and bred to work, and whatever worked got bred. To me they look like docked swissy's or entelbauers.
Actually, that's a really cool picture. And to me they kind of look like primitive Dobermans, not quite there yet but on the way. At least that's what they look like to me.
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