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Old 11-26-2012, 05:00 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sonterra2002 View Post
You are quite wrong. A dog can be forced to do protection. I have seen it done many times to my utter disgust. However it does not negate the fact that it can and is done. It is done by pushing the dog into avoidance and then past it to where only fight or flight exists. Once they "fight" the drive can be molded.

Will it break the dog? it depends on the dog and the trainer - how much finese with compulsion they have.

There are also different levels of compulsion used, and let me tell you, there is a metric sh!t ton of compulsion used in protection training.
Then those people are fools, that's not training in protection that is messing it's head up and then managing it.

Out of interest, Sonterra and the people who thanked that post, could you elaborate on this statement, like how forcing a dog to do protection would work? Or how one would go about doing so?
I would like to learn from everyone's experiences if that ok.

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Old 11-26-2012, 05:08 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Then those people are fools, that's not training in protection that is messing it's head up and then managing it.
I don't disagree with you that it's screwed up. I certainly don't advocate doing it, but it can be, and is, done.

An example off the top of my head would be the "choke out" to teach release. With enough repetition the dog will learn that no matter how much satisfaction they get from the "attack" the consequence for ignoring the release command is worse.

Their aversion to being choked is greater than their desire to continue the attack
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:15 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Ah yes I understand that this form of compulsion is used by some people for outs, I would not use it myself unless something was going wrong and then the dog would never do protection training again.

I am talking about fireing (?) the dog up for the bite etc.
IMO if a dog isn't up for protection work, it has no place doing it.
Just as I would pass over a sheep dog that didn't want to herd sheep, he would be unreliable and a liability.
So really I should have said compulsion should not be needed to train protection, and if it is something is not right. Maybe, lolz.

I think I'll stick to my thoughts on training dogs that need to be forced to carry out protection training if it's ok with everyone, as in I wouldn't use them. They can live on the sofa.
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:19 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Ah yes I understand that this form of compulsion is used by some people for outs, I would not use it myself unless something was going wrong and then the dog would never do protection training again.

I am talking about fireing (?) the dog up for the bite etc.
IMO if a dog isn't up for protection work, it has no place doing it.
Just as I would pass over a sheep dog that didn't want to herd sheep, he would be unreliable and a liability.
So really I should have said compulsion should not be needed to train protection, and if it is something is not right. Maybe, lolz.

I think I'll stick to my thoughts on training dogs that need to be forced to carry out protection training if it's ok with everyone, as in I wouldn't use them. They can live on the sofa.
I get what you are saying, but remember that teaching a dog to bite is easy, it's the teaching them to STOP that's hard. Getting the dog in that situation to obey commands is what protection/K9/military etc training is really about, IMHO. There is a whole lot of compulsion used in those worlds, from what I understand.

Again, I don't agree with it, but it CERTAINLY is done
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:56 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Face it almost any dog that has a lot of moxie, is going to push the envelope at some point when it comes to outs. This is true even when they have been trained from a puppy to out using extremely humane methods. When you have an adult dog, often a little choke out is the only method you can use. People do a lot of things to make a dog out, from e-collar correction, pinch collar corrections, to flanking the dog. The problem with an e-collar, and pinch and especially the flanking method, is you can create more fight drive in the dog as the conflict is then between the handler and dog over the out.. very bad situation. Usually a dog that has been properly trained early on what the out is only needs one or two of these reminders. When hanging up the dog (choking it out) is the main method of teaching an out, it is a problem in my opinion.

In my earlier post I was talking about a correction. In our system this is highly differentiated from compulsion. Compulsion is using force at the same time as doing the work for the dog. Basically forcing them into the correct position or pushing them into the action desired.

What I am saying is with a "real deal" dog in fight drive, or even prey drive while something motivational such as verbal praise is helpful, a reward (from handler) or withholding a reward does not really work. You can manipulate the situation and make the dog work through the handler to get at the reward (helper). This is effective.

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Old 11-26-2012, 06:01 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Well I am quite amazed I thought the days of choking and flanking was gone. Clearly I am nieve in thinking things had progressed.
So do people still do stuff like correcting into the sleeve?
How does correction for out at a distance work? I imagine people are using an e-collar?
Why would you train a dog that is so mental it can't grasp the concept of 'outing' from a slipped sleeve?

Edit: Sorry Rosemburg I was typing when you posted, thanks for the psychic reply .

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Old 11-26-2012, 06:02 PM   #82 (permalink)
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I agree with all of this. I was NOT saying it's a good training method. I was simply saying it is done, cuz an example was requested of how compulsion could be used.

Some people do it, I think it sucks, but it was the clearest example that I could come up with.


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Face it almost any dog that has a lot of moxie, is going to push the envelope at some point when it comes to outs. This is true even when they have been trained from a puppy to out using extremely humane methods. When you have an adult dog, often a little choke out is the only method you can use. People do a lot of things to make a dog out, from e-collar correction, pinch collar corrections, to flanking the dog. The problem with an e-collar, and pinch and especially the flanking method, is you can create more fight drive in the dog as the conflict is then between the handler and dog over the out.. very bad situation. Usually a dog that has been properly trained early on what the out is only needs one or two of these reminders. When hanging up the dog (choking it out) is the main method of teaching an out, it is a problem in my opinion.

In my earlier post I was talking about a correction. In our system this is highly differentiated from compulsion. Compulsion is using force at the same time as doing the work for the dog. Basically forcing them into the correct position or pushing them into the action desired.

What I am saying is with a "real deal" dog in fight drive, or even prey drive while something motivational such as verbal praise is helpful, a reward (from handler) or withholding a reward does not really work. You can manipulate the situation and make the dog work through the handler to get at the reward (helper). This is effective.
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:03 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Ah yes I understand that this form of compulsion is used by some people for outs, I would not use it myself unless something was going wrong and then the dog would never do protection training again.

.
Then you would be unlikely to have success with a very high drive dog in protection work, because like I said at some point the dog is going to test it. I think I only had to do this a couple of times over the last 2 years vs probably a thousand successful outs on command. If the dog does not understand that it is absolutely not an option you have a problem on your hands. If a person is not willing to go to any lengths to have a safe dog then in my opinion they should not be doing protection work and should not have this type of dog.
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:14 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Isn't that what I just said though?

Quote:
Ah yes I understand that this form of compulsion is used by some people for outs, I would not use it myself unless something was going wrong and then the dog would never do protection training again.
Just to clarify we are talking about choking off/hanging a dog now? not just a good sharp lead pop on a prong collar because the dog has momentarily 'forgotten' that out means out?

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Old 11-26-2012, 06:22 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Isn't that what I just said though?



Just to clarify we are talking about choking off/hanging a dog now? not just a good sharp lead pop on a prong collar because the dog has momentarily 'forgotten' that out means out?
Yes, you guys are talking about choking out/hanging up a dog- NOT a prong correction. It's not an issue of the dog forgetting, its an issue of the dog being more involved with what it's doing than obeying commands that come it's way.

It's also some pretty high level **** that most people should NEVER try. When used improperly, like using it as a training technique, it's simply compliance through abuse.

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Old 11-26-2012, 06:23 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Seriously?

(Also That's why it in ' ')
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:28 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Seriously?

(Also That's why it in ' ')
Huh?
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:34 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Huh?
Seriously people are training dogs they need to choke off to out?
Needing to flank a dog is enough for me and not something I like doing, for my own safety.
Wow they are braver than me. I'm not of a mind to train a dog like that, each to their own and just my opinion.
Rosemburg is probably correct a dog with that much 'drive' to fight is not for my ability/experience.
Obviously any dog I have trained in protection it's a case of bite and lets get the hell out of here.
A thought has just occurred to me that I am overtraining the out in too early a stage which I think rosemburg or Asmit or Sonterra said in my 'loss of bite' thread which sorta clears things up a bit for me.
I don't like to have to use compulsion for 'outs' which is why I probably err on the side of caution.

The forgotten was in ' ' as in the dog is so wired he is not listening/is being disobedient.

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Old 11-26-2012, 07:00 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Seriously people are training dogs they need to choke off to out?
Needing to flank a dog is enough for me and not something I like doing, for my own safety.
Wow they are braver than me. I'm not of a mind to train a dog like that, each to their own and just my opinion.
Yes. This topic is about military and police dogs. That kind of FIGHT is what they are looking for. These aren't sport/club dogs, and it's life and death. The FIGHT is what they need.

In reality, dobermans are not these kind of dogs anymore. Due to their popularity, that is a good thing (I KNOW, UNPOPULAR OPINION) but its the truth. So so so few people can deal with "real deal" (I like that term, Rosamburg) dogs.

I have known a couple K9s. Completely different dog than the family snuggle bunny. Honestly, the one down the street scares the bejeesus out of me. He's never so much as growled at us, but it's an expression thing. We give him a WIDE berth

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Old 11-26-2012, 07:25 PM   #90 (permalink)
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....I guess this means nobody has any links about those German Air Force Dobermans, or the Dobermans guarding Germans in Afghanistan?
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:31 PM   #91 (permalink)
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....I guess this means nobody has any links about those German Air Force Dobermans, or the Dobermans guarding Germans in Afghanistan?
Anyone know what the K9 corps is called in the German army? We can try to google...

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Old 11-26-2012, 07:33 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Anyone know that the K9 corps is called in the German army? We can try to google...
I'll try to figure it out. Knowing German, it's probably a portmanteau of like, "dog man soldier patrol" or something.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:39 PM   #93 (permalink)
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I'll try to figure it out. Knowing German, it's probably a portmanteau of like, "dog man soldier patrol" or something.
I have googled every variation on "German/Germany" "k9/dog" "military/conflict" "afghanistan" and saw a couple shepherds (I'm not good at differentiating breeds in this category, dutch maybe?) but that's about it.

Why would the air force need dogs, though?
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:47 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GingerGunlock View Post
....I guess this means nobody has any links about those German Air Force Dobermans, or the Dobermans guarding Germans in Afghanistan?
I refer you once again, to Jim Carrey's butt, of which Brandy&Allison has so kindly provided a visual reminder.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:50 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by monicaei View Post
I have googled every variation on "German/Germany" "k9/dog" "military/conflict" "afghanistan" and saw a couple shepherds (I'm not good at differentiating breeds in this category, dutch maybe?) but that's about it.

Why would the air force need dogs, though?
Well, in the U.S., the Lackland Air Force Base is the only place where MWD's get trained.

Various word salad attempts got me "Diensthund" is "Service dog", ostensibly meaning military service. (yeah, I felt sooper smrt when I remembered that "hund" is "dog". Migraine power for the win)

However, Googling "Diensthund Doberman Afghanistan" hasn't yet gotten me diddly (well, without the quotes). I'll keep trying at it for a bit. Really, I didn't think it was correct, is why I asked. But, flies and honey and all that.....

I did learn that in WWII, the German military police were referred to, pejoratively, as Kettenhunde, due to the chain-gorget thing they wore as part of their uniform.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:55 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Well, in the U.S., the Lackland Air Force Base is the only place where MWD's get trained.

Various word salad attempts got me "Diensthund" is "Service dog", ostensibly meaning military service. (yeah, I felt sooper smrt when I remembered that "hund" is "dog". Migraine power for the win)

However, Googling "Diensthund Doberman Afghanistan" hasn't yet gotten me diddly (well, without the quotes). I'll keep trying at it for a bit. Really, I didn't think it was correct, is why I asked. But, flies and honey and all that.....

I did learn that in WWII, the German military police were referred to, pejoratively, as Kettenhunde, due to the chain-gorget thing they wore as part of their uniform.

Lackland is a joint base, no?

Either way these German dobes are super top secret.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:04 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Lackland is a joint base, no?

Either way these German dobes are super top secret.
According to the Wikipedia (as I honestly have little knowledge of it, other than that's where the U.S. MWD's come from), they do the defense language training there, and basic training for Active Duty Air Force, Air Force Reserve, and Air National Guard.

Diensthund ? Wikipedia is the Wiki on German service dogs as pertains to military, police, and customs. While there is a list of "approved service dogs in Germany", and Doberman is on that list, most of the pictures I see there and elsewhere are German Shepherds, and Dutch Shepherds (and probably Mals, but I also decline to make a hard choice on those sometimes).

In that article, there is a picture from 1915 of dogs pulling a canon in Belgium...what the heck are those? They're all harnessed and muzzled, though clearly docked.




Oh yeah, and the word for paratroopers is "*Fallschirmjägertruppe*". Air force is still Luftwaffe.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:07 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GingerGunlock View Post
According to the Wikipedia (as I honestly have little knowledge of it, other than that's where the U.S. MWD's come from), they do the defense language training there, and basic training for Active Duty Air Force, Air Force Reserve, and Air National Guard.



Oh yeah, and the word for paratroopers is "*Fallschirmjägertruppe*". Air force is still Luftwaffe.
. I was, in a past life long ago, a CTI linguist in the Navy... Hence my confusion. We considered it a joint base.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:10 PM   #99 (permalink)
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The difference is a working dog evaluator will say “that dog has a poor temperament” while a person in denial will say “that dog is too smart”.
THANK YOU!

I have loved and owned Dobes since before the fad of the 1970s. I have titled in schH and even trained police K9 and have testified as Police K9 expert in court. The above statement (and everything else they said) is TRUE.

The doberman has been let down by its breeders. Nothing more, nothing less. All this talk of "they are too this, too that" is ridiculous: they were developed as a POLICE DOG. IF they can't function as one they are NOT being correctly bred.

But, the denial will go on. The breeding of mule eared gazelle necked "big babies" will go on. And only a very, very, very few will ever respect the breed as it should be respected.

I want to say one other thing. I joined this site a few months ago looking for a well bred working Dobe for not a lot of money. I was "eaten alive" for suggesting such a thing. In the mean time I am now happily living with a young male Alfred v Haus Mann, SchH III grandson and am messing around to see if he has what it takes to title in IPO. He was given to me at no charge, as the owner's goal was a good home, not money.

I am not going to be going for full membership on this board, in fact, I won't be back... I have been in dogs 45 years, and this is one of the worst boards I have seen for "educating the public". No one here ever seems to have been a newbie, with dumb ideas or plain ignorance, all born "perfect" - so have no tolerance, it seems for those less perfect.

A public forum should educate: people should NOT be afraid to ask questions. People should NOT be told "Why did you ask if you won't follow what we tell you?" People should set a good example, be kind, and helpful, and realize that you can't help everyone - but you CAN help some. Being snotty won't help ANYONE.

As a breed steward in another breed, I have people contact me all the time saying "we are too afraid to go on any boards, for we will be attacked", so the sneak around trying to get information. Ridiculous!

Be a little kind. Be a little patient. Get off your high horse. Set an example and if it is good enough, people will admire you and follow your example. I think those who "attack" do so because it is far easier than being a good example.

I leave you all to yourselves. I know there are good people on here. I wish it was a more pleasant place to visit, I'd love to share my advantures with JerryDog as we get some titles. But after seeing those who put their poor dogs through MONTHS of discomfort because they want those foolish mule ears attacking someone who wanted pictures of shorter crops (shorter crops heal faster and are MUCH easier on the dog) I won't be back. I think those who put there dogs through long crops are inhumane, and put vanity before the dog - and here you are accusing the person who wanted the short crop of being like a drug dealer or something!

Think about what I have said. Lead by good example - not by being snitty.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:10 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Rutland VT police dept has a Doberman named Otto. He's awesome and fun to watch during training / public relation details. His drive is that of any of the other breeds they have working (GSD & Mallies mostly). They train with the VTPCA (vt police canine association), so we get to watch Otto from time to time when they train with our canine units.

I've asked our canine units this same question. One has Mallies, the other has GSDs and they pretty much bash all the other breeds except their own. It seems like its just a matter of what they have worked with, what they are comfortable working with, and what they've grown to know. It's kind of like comparing it to a comfortable pair of jeans. You know they work for you, you know they make you look good, you love them and don't want to trade them for anything, no matter what anyone else tells you about their jeans and how awesome they are. I'm clearly not speaking for "technical" training/drive/ect, just what I've gotten from asking the handlers.

My mallie is a wingnut with his drive, he's one of those dogs that would throw himself out the window for a ball. Holland working lines, and also had a hard time giving up his trainer for his handler, then his handler to me - his place of retirement. (I saw someone had said something about Dobie's loyalties). The Mallies I've encountered, especially my own, and our canines have that same loyalty. And I don't know much about GSD to say one way or the other, but I know one thing for certain, ALL the handlers seem to have a loyalty to the breed they work with. Human nature I think

My Dobie, her loyalities are high, but her drive is low. and I'm ok with that. She does not have the temperment for police work and probably not for schtuzhund either. But she is going to get a "job" because she is smart and wants to work.

And thank you for all of you who posted more knowledgable info about the subject, because I really did want to know too, other then it seeming to be a preference with the handlers. and their snarky remarks about "lesser" breeds.
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