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Old 11-25-2012, 09:51 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Actually, Dobermans are used by the Germans Air force and are currently guarding Germans in Afghanistan, so when it comes to real war zone work the germans choose working Dobermans. The main problems with dobermans are
1. takes 2 years to develop physically to be mature enough for work 2. bad with extreme cold weather 3. Tails and ears need to be docked taking time and costing money. 4. Real working European ones cost a small fortune to buy 5. European working Dobermans lines are very aggressive, with very strong drives think the highest drive malinios, real working Dobermans are not fun dogs they are out and out killers, just like malinios they will go through windows to attack someone. They are terrible as pets and have such high aggression levels towards people and other dogs that they make terrible pets.I live in Germany and have a working line Doberman her lines are German & international working champions, she is a complete horror to own as a pet too high drive dogs are a nightmare !.
Also currently in Germany they have stopped using GSD as police dogs as they are not aggressive enough and malinois are cheaper to buy, and all come with high drive aggression, also not suitable for family pets. But truste me, people will want Mali's as pets and they will be breed down in drives to make them more safe- sale able , and they will become like GSDs or average Dobermans.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:26 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Okay - so it's a revived, but old thread - but - as I was reading it I was wondering how much of the reason for the change is not because of the dog, but because of the trainers & training techniques?

Is it possible that there was more reward based, one-on-one training BEFORE we (people in general) got all alpha on on the dogs? Is it possible that training that pushed a dog to learn & obey doesn't work as well on dobermans as it does on GSDs? How much did training change when we developed universal training techniques for all forces rather than independent smaller / more local training?

From what I've read, the Monks or Leerburg (or whoever), went through a phase of having to be dominant & that now the trend is changing again - or at the very least being adapted to something softer.

Maybe it isn't because of the temperature or because police dogs aren't encouraged to bond with their handler to the point of velcro - maybe it's just consistant training techniques & expectations that don't fit with most dobermans' personalities. (Not good or bad, just not appropriate & if you can find a larger number of GSDs or Mals that do fit into your criteria, why would you add a different breed or build or style of dog to your training group?)
Kate

(I'm hanging out with some other doberman owners these days & some of them are much harder on their dogs than I could be on Chanel. It seems to me that each doberman is very different & as owners we have to adapt to those differences & make our training fit the dog. I don't think that can be done when you are dealing with volume.)
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:48 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Somewhat Off Topic But

I asked a seasoned and well respected AKC competition obedience dog trainer why she switched from training Dobermans to GSD and she said because the GSD was so much easier to train. She eventually became president of a local GSD club.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:35 PM   #54 (permalink)
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German Dobermans

Doberman owners are lucky that their pets are no longer real working Dobermans. I am originally from Ireland and had an Irish Doberman, it was a great family pet very friendly, we trained it for agility and obedience and eventually joined a GSD club to do Schutzhund work, but she was too friendly for bitework. So when she died, I was living in Germany so, I bought a German working line Doberman, in fact her father was the IDC champion, her line (inline breed) was both show and working champions. Trust me, no one wants a real working line Doberman, ok she is super smart, fast healthy etc, but she has insane high drives, all the people in our local Doberman schutzhund club loved her and felt she will be a real competitor in schutzhund.
But what no one warns you , is that these dogs make terrible pets, they are hyper all the time, aggression is a default setting, genetically programmed, they are very hard to own, forget walking them anywhere as they are always on, ready for action,with a hair-trigger aggression switch waiting to go off on people or other dogs, if you breed for aggression you get aggression. If Dobermans outside of Germany were to go back to this working line, this would end normal ownership as they are too dangerous to keep. This is why Dobermans are not working police dogs, because breeders do not want the liability of creating dangerous dogs, when Dobermans are breed for aggression they are absolute fearless attack dogs, it is the terrier in them. I have had to put my dog on Fluvoxamin tablets to cool her off and kill her drives to have something near a normal pet.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:37 PM   #55 (permalink)
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There are lots of people on here with working-line Dobermans that are great pets, you can't generalize because you have had a bad experience with one dog.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:46 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Red-Rebel View Post
Actually, Dobermans are used by the Germans Air force and are currently guarding Germans in Afghanistan, so when it comes to real war zone work the germans choose working Dobermans. The main problems with dobermans are
1. takes 2 years to develop physically to be mature enough for work 2. bad with extreme cold weather 3. Tails and ears need to be docked taking time and costing money. 4. Real working European ones cost a small fortune to buy 5. European working Dobermans lines are very aggressive, with very strong drives think the highest drive malinios, real working Dobermans are not fun dogs they are out and out killers, just like malinios they will go through windows to attack someone. They are terrible as pets and have such high aggression levels towards people and other dogs that they make terrible pets.I live in Germany and have a working line Doberman her lines are German & international working champions, she is a complete horror to own as a pet too high drive dogs are a nightmare !.
Also currently in Germany they have stopped using GSD as police dogs as they are not aggressive enough and malinois are cheaper to buy, and all come with high drive aggression, also not suitable for family pets. But truste me, people will want Mali's as pets and they will be breed down in drives to make them more safe- sale able , and they will become like GSDs or average Dobermans.
Bold mine.

Do they really? That's awesome, and I would love to read about it (and see pictures!) , if you have any articles to link. My Google skills fail me today
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Old 11-25-2012, 04:45 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-Rebel View Post
Doberman owners are lucky that their pets are no longer real working Dobermans. I am originally from Ireland and had an Irish Doberman, it was a great family pet very friendly, we trained it for agility and obedience and eventually joined a GSD club to do Schutzhund work, but she was too friendly for bitework. So when she died, I was living in Germany so, I bought a German working line Doberman, in fact her father was the IDC champion, her line (inline breed) was both show and working champions. Trust me, no one wants a real working line Doberman, ok she is super smart, fast healthy etc, but she has insane high drives, all the people in our local Doberman schutzhund club loved her and felt she will be a real competitor in schutzhund.
But what no one warns you , is that these dogs make terrible pets, they are hyper all the time, aggression is a default setting, genetically programmed, they are very hard to own, forget walking them anywhere as they are always on, ready for action,with a hair-trigger aggression switch waiting to go off on people or other dogs, if you breed for aggression you get aggression. If Dobermans outside of Germany were to go back to this working line, this would end normal ownership as they are too dangerous to keep. This is why Dobermans are not working police dogs, because breeders do not want the liability of creating dangerous dogs, when Dobermans are breed for aggression they are absolute fearless attack dogs, it is the terrier in them. I have had to put my dog on Fluvoxamin tablets to cool her off and kill her drives to have something near a normal pet.
You know this may be your experience with your dog but I have a male from working show lines from Sweden. He is an excellent dog. Sensible and friendly. When we do bite work no matter how civil it was and how intense by the time I close his crate door he is laying down. He has an on-off switch. When I was in Sweden I met numerous working dogs and they were all house pets as well. One dog at 10 yrs is still a working security dog with numerous titles in Schutzhund as well..he is a friendly calm housepet when off duty. I think the generalization here is an insult and injury to all the people working hard to keep true Doberman temperament.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:08 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Okay - so it's a revived, but old thread - but - as I was reading it I was wondering how much of the reason for the change is not because of the dog, but because of the trainers & training techniques?

Is it possible that there was more reward based, one-on-one training BEFORE we (people in general) got all alpha on on the dogs? Is it possible that training that pushed a dog to learn & obey doesn't work as well on dobermans as it does on GSDs? How much did training change when we developed universal training techniques for all forces rather than independent smaller / more local training?

From what I've read, the Monks or Leerburg (or whoever), went through a phase of having to be dominant & that now the trend is changing again - or at the very least being adapted to something softer.

Maybe it isn't because of the temperature or because police dogs aren't encouraged to bond with their handler to the point of velcro - maybe it's just consistant training techniques & expectations that don't fit with most dobermans' personalities. (Not good or bad, just not appropriate & if you can find a larger number of GSDs or Mals that do fit into your criteria, why would you add a different breed or build or style of dog to your training group?)
Kate

(I'm hanging out with some other doberman owners these days & some of them are much harder on their dogs than I could be on Chanel. It seems to me that each doberman is very different & as owners we have to adapt to those differences & make our training fit the dog. I don't think that can be done when you are dealing with volume.)
To the bolded, are you asking if they used to train with more reward based methods? No, it was the opposite in the past. Crank and yank is about what everyone used to use, alot of the heavy reward based training is new. It is pretty 'accepted' that dobermans respond better to reward based training, so if that's true, there would have been less dobermans working in the past and more so now. Which I don't think is the case.

There are dobermans in the police force now, in the U.S. and overseas. They are not as numerous as the Mals and GSDs but they do exist. All of the reasons for this are listed on the first page of this thread.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:44 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
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To the bolded, are you asking if they used to train with more reward based methods? No, it was the opposite in the past. Crank and yank is about what everyone used to use, alot of the heavy reward based training is new. It is pretty 'accepted' that dobermans respond better to reward based training, so if that's true, there would have been less dobermans working in the past and more so now. Which I don't think is the case.

There are dobermans in the police force now, in the U.S. and overseas. They are not as numerous as the Mals and GSDs but they do exist. All of the reasons for this are listed on the first page of this thread.
Bolded, not strictly true, I read a very interesting article on this not long ago, If I can find it I will link it.
It was during the 60's/70's that the alpha, dominance crap came about.
For example, you can't force a dog to herd sheep, it's not possible. That's just one example and not particularly useful in this context.

The Dyfed Powys police, the one I come under and the largest in Wales does not use dobermans anymore as a rule.
On their website it says 'They are too highly strung'
I was talking with a retired police handler the other day when I met him in town with Tilly, he said that they did have a few dobermans and they were the best dogs they had, but he also said that they got phased out because all the dobes they could find were 'too highly strung' I asked him what he meant by that, thinking he meant 'too nervy' and he said they were or were too aggressive and trigger happy there was no balance it was all or nothing.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:18 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Police & Military Dobermans

Just a quick update from what is currently happening in the Doberman world. For the Doberman breed Germany is world HQ. In the top clubs here in Germany they have gone back to older working lines to try to improve health and the belief is also in Show lines that if the reward working lines with show titles this will improve health of the breed
Go to some web site like doberman review and check the IDC working lines and the IDC show lines, you will see they are the same lines. German Dobermans now, are all capable of becoming police or military dogs, they have that hardness and aggression once more, this is the new breed standard. As generally the world Doberman champion dogs are always German, it is standard that all German Doberman club members have the elite of the world Dobermans, currently these elite are very aggressive hard dogs with extreme drives, maybe it was due to the reaction the Doberman health issues or maybe it was just plain competition with the mali's but something has changed and Dobermans here are like the Dobes of the 70's, this will come to the rest of the Doberman world soon.
These dogs are real specialist dogs, perfect for schutzhund, can easily become police or military K9 unit dogs, but terrible as pets. One other point, I have noticed is that the females have got most of the drives now days.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:21 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
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To the bolded, are you asking if they used to train with more reward based methods? No, it was the opposite in the past. Crank and yank is about what everyone used to use, alot of the heavy reward based training is new. It is pretty 'accepted' that dobermans respond better to reward based training, so if that's true, there would have been less dobermans working in the past and more so now. Which I don't think is the case.
I looked up 'dog training 1920' and found this book - looks as if some of the WWI British dogs were definitely not 'yank & crank' trained. (I was looking specifically for training techniques - some of the other parts of the book had me in hysterics during my quick look through.)

British war dogs, their training and psychology

Kate
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:36 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Bolded, not strictly true, I read a very interesting article on this not long ago, If I can find it I will link it.
It was during the 60's/70's that the alpha, dominance crap came about.
For example, you can't force a dog to herd sheep, it's not possible. That's just one example and not particularly useful in this context.
I'm not talking about this dominance crap. I'm talking about the idea of training in which the dog performs 'x' command in order to avoid compulsion. I am confused by your first 'paragraph' What do you mean? What age/era are we talking? Are you trying to tell me that there were a bunch of purely positive reinforcement clicker trainers around some half a century ago more so than there are now? I think we're talking two different things.

Quote:
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I looked up 'dog training 1920' and found this book - looks as if some of the WWI British dogs were definitely not 'yank & crank' trained. (I was looking specifically for training techniques - some of the other parts of the book had me in hysterics during my quick look through.)

British war dogs, their training and psychology

Kate
What did it say? I skimmed through but didn't see anything directly stating their training.
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:54 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:06 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Reading a few of the posts on this thread, I am suddenly picturing Jim Carrey, flapping his cheeks and talking out of his butt.
Considering I have a few posts on this thread, if you have knowledge stating the contrary to what has been written by anyone, please share! (Honest statement )
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:36 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I have both working line and Euro show line dogs. All mine are great pets for me, but I am also active in sport. Perhaps that is the outlet my dogs need. Of the 3, I have various levels of aggression. My working line is lowest by far.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:32 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Red-Rebel View Post
Just a quick update from what is currently happening in the Doberman world. For the Doberman breed Germany is world HQ. In the top clubs here in Germany they have gone back to older working lines to try to improve health and the belief is also in Show lines that if the reward working lines with show titles this will improve health of the breed
Which clubs are you talking about? For a quick update of what is really happening in the Dobermann world, I prefer to go here..

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Go to some web site like doberman review and check the IDC working lines and the IDC show lines, you will see they are the same lines. German Dobermans now, are all capable of becoming police or military dogs, they have that hardness and aggression once more, this is the new breed standard. As generally the world Doberman champion dogs are always German, it is standard that all German Doberman club members have the elite of the world Dobermans, currently these elite are very aggressive hard dogs with extreme drives, maybe it was due to the reaction the Doberman health issues or maybe it was just plain competition with the mali's but something has changed and Dobermans here are like the Dobes of the 70's, this will come to the rest of the Doberman world soon.
WTF are you talking about? Most of the IDC show world winners are from either Italy or Eastern Europe these days. Unless of course, one of the DV show gang happens to get one of their cronies, who happens to own a dog from one of their breedings, placed high in a showing. Most of the IDC weltmeisterschaft IPO championship dogs are from pure working lines, or close to it. The one exception was an Italian show dog a few years ago that won. All I can say about that was the scores in protection were an absolute f#$ing gift.

In terms of working dogs making a big comeback, I am not that optimistic. There are a few breeders breeding decent working dogs, but the time clock is ticking due to the extreme health problems in BOTH working and show lines, even in Germany. When I say the clock is ticking, you pair the tiny gene pool of working line dogs who are actually able to work, with the extreme health issues in the breed, and I do not see this huge comeback, coming. As far as masses of German working line breeders going to old working lines? Where are they coming from? Since it is not allowed in Germany to use AI breeding, who are they breeding to? I think it is going the other way. The few breeders with serious dogs to me seem to be wavering. One of the more extreme dogs in Germany in the last 10 years, is a dog that was bred to a fair amount, Calle v.d Burgestatte. His owner now has a show dog. Marco Comelli (Burgstatte kennels) may still be breeding serious Dobermann's but has recently acquired a Malinois.

In the clubs I visited in Germany, which also happened to have some of the more well known working line breeders, most of the show dogs I saw were as you expect, kind of ho-hum. As far as the working lines, I did not see the man-eating killers you described in an earlier post. Most of the handlers looked like they had not had much exposure to modern training methods, and their dogs showed it in their expression.

As far as breeders mixing show and working lines, the only notable breeder in Europe, that I see having done that in recent years was Manfred Lerner (his old kennel was Bayern). I have no understanding of why he did this. I have done it with pretty mixed results.


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Originally Posted by Red-Rebel View Post
These dogs are real specialist dogs, perfect for schutzhund, can easily become police or military K9 unit dogs, but terrible as pets. One other point, I have noticed is that the females have got most of the drives now days.
This is utter nonsense. I do happen to have a bitch that has high drive, is pretty aggressive, and who comes from German pure working lines. However, she is a great pet.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:32 PM   #67 (permalink)
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It was this part that made me think that training wasn't all dominance in the early 1900s. Obviously some people did yank and crank & bullied dogs into obedience, but when training in numbers for the Brits, this author was looking for a different type of trainer/handler. It's the trainers being described below - and he didn't look for people who coerced or punished. (They took random strays, family pets & police dogs. They trained dogs as messengers, sentries & guard dogs.)

Complete confidence and affection must exist between dogs and keeper, and the man whose only idea of control is by coercion and fear is quite useless. I have found that many men, who are supposedly dog experts are not sufficiently sympathetic, and are apt to regard the dog too much as a machine. They do not study the psychology of their charges sufficiently. Another type of man to avoid is one who has trained or bread a few dogs, and thinks in consequence that he knows all there is to know. This unteachable attitude disqualifies a man at the outset. Some of the most successful keepers, that is to say, those who obtained the best results from the dogs in the field, and were also the most helpful when under instruction at the school, were those who, having a natural love of animals, had no previous experience of a particular nature with dogs.

He goes on to say that 'even the cleverest dog is nonplussed in the charge of a stupid or unconcientious keeper'.

I'm sure that although he was obviously weirdly opinionated & not at all soft about dogs in general he couldn't have been the only positive trainer out there.

Back to my original thought - when dogs were being trained in smaller numbers & as less of a volume business, is it possible that dogs that need more individual thought and attention were a fine choice, but now that training is (perhaps) more standardized and time driven that the dogs need to fit into specific criteria that doberman don't naturally fall into?
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:36 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Considering I have a few posts on this thread, if you have knowledge stating the contrary to what has been written by anyone, please share! (Honest statement )
I don't think she was talking about you.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:51 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Okay - so it's a revived, but old thread - but - as I was reading it I was wondering how much of the reason for the change is not because of the dog, but because of the trainers & training techniques?

Is it possible that there was more reward based, one-on-one training BEFORE we (people in general) got all alpha on on the dogs? Is it possible that training that pushed a dog to learn & obey doesn't work as well on dobermans as it does on GSDs? How much did training change when we developed universal training techniques for all forces rather than independent smaller / more local training?

From what I've read, the Monks or Leerburg (or whoever), went through a phase of having to be dominant & that now the trend is changing again - or at the very least being adapted to something softer.

Maybe it isn't because of the temperature or because police dogs aren't encouraged to bond with their handler to the point of velcro - maybe it's just consistant training techniques & expectations that don't fit with most dobermans' personalities. (Not good or bad, just not appropriate & if you can find a larger number of GSDs or Mals that do fit into your criteria, why would you add a different breed or build or style of dog to your training group?)
Kate

(I'm hanging out with some other doberman owners these days & some of them are much harder on their dogs than I could be on Chanel. It seems to me that each doberman is very different & as owners we have to adapt to those differences & make our training fit the dog. I don't think that can be done when you are dealing with volume.)
In my opinion this theory does not hold much water if you hold it up to the light, because training a dog in general obedience is very different than training a dog while it is in protection mode. Operant conditioning is really the only way to go when training dogs to have obedience in protection. I train with a clicker and rewards in obedience (even some cookie training for certain scenarios). However if you have a high drive dog and are doing protection work, a weiner just does not stack up too well in comparison to the helper.

Just to spell it out, for corrections I primarily use an e-collar these days. I have a Sportdog ecollar with 8 settings. In obedience I generally have the correction setting set to 2 to 3. To correct her in protection work, I have to turn it up to at least 6. A reward is useless, the helper is the only reward in the dogs mind at that point.

The issue with Doberman's is not whether they can do obedience, most are highly capable of this. It is whether they have the nerve to handle highly stressful situations and still perform the job. Most can't.

Of course many of them COULD do detection work. However, the stage has been long set for why departments don't use them. In terms of border patrol, mostly they are Shepherds and Malis. BTW they are kenneled by the Border Patrol, the handlers no longer take their dogs home with them.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:56 AM   #70 (permalink)
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But reward based training isn't all about cookies and hotdogs. They are reinforcer's for used for increasing frequency, intensity or duration of a behaviour during a behaviour.
A reward is after the dog has completed a specific action.
A reinforcer can be any motivational resource as can a reward.

You cannot force or use compulsion to do protection, just as you cannot force a dog to herd sheep. This being one of the main reasons not just any dog can do this phase. The dog has to love to do it. His reinforcement is the 'hope' and 'want' to take a bite and the reward is the bite itself and the relief of stress associated with it.
Using an ecollar or any other compulsion device isn't really forcing your dog to do anything anyway. The cessation of the pressure or force is what really teaches the dog, not the force itself and as such becomes a reinforcement, i.e it statistically increases the likelihood of the dog to emit the behaviour again when requested.
Obviously you know more about the subject of protection so I am not trying to teach you to suck eggs but as far as I can make out many people are moving away from the drive- force- drive principle and focusing on reinforcement and reward with both being 'the game' and the bite (which is reward in terms of relief of stress not unlike an avoidance behaviour)

@others
Taking for example when dogs became first domesticated, this would have been completely reward based there is no way on earth humans just grabbed dogs and made them do stuff, they would have just done a runner first opportunity.
Regarding Kates comments, I have watch an old Pathe video of british army dog training and a similar thing is said in the video, I can't seem to find it now.
Yank and crank really took off with Barbara Woodhouse, this one has a few dobermans in it. Interestingly the doberman that she is 'yanking and cranking' isn't having none of it whereas all the other step right in line :

cruelandhorriblewoman


Also I have a old training book Kath found (about 1920s-30's ?)whilst in a second hand book shop which is all about 'training with kindness, empathy and reward' If I can dig it out I will take some quotes from it.

A short and probably biased summary of dog training Re: reward training

1700s: Truffle hunters learn to give their dogs bread when they locate truffles, which turns out to be cheaper than using pigs which cannot be stopped from eating all the truffles they locate.

1885: S.T. Hammond, a writer for Forest and Stream magazine advocates in his columns and in a book entitled Practical Training, that dogs should be praised and rewarded with meat when they do something right.

1880s: Montague Stevens trains his New Mexico bear dogs by rewarding them with pieces of bread instead of beating and kicking them as others of that era were generally doing. Stevens is a famous bear hunter and friend of Teddy Roosevelt and the sculptor Frederic Remington.

1886: Edward Thorndike develops a theory of learning based on stimulus and response. Thorndike shows that "practice makes perfect" and that if reinforced with positive rewards, animals can learn quickly.

1899: The first canine school for police dogs is started in Ghent, Belgium using Belgian Shepherds, which had recently been established as a breed.

1903: Ivan Pavlov publishes his experiments with dogs and digestion, noting that animals can be trained to have a physical response to stimuli. Pavlov called this learning process "conditioning," and in 1904 he was awarded the Nobel Prize for his research.

1903: The Germans begin schutzhund work, a competition devoted to obedience, protection, tracking and attack work.

1907: Police begin patrolling New York City and South Orange, New Jersey with Belgian Shepherds and newly reconstructed Irish wolfhounds.

1915: Baltimore police begin using Airedales from England to patrol the streets. The police suspend use of Airedales in 1917 as the dogs had helped make no arrests. The police failed to notice that no robberies had occurred where the dogs were on patrol.

1915: Edwin Richardson trains dogs for the military during WWI using some positive reinforcement, and the dogs prove to be quick studies. Many dogs are used for communication and for guard duty.

1917: The Germans begin to formally use dogs to guide soliders blinded in mustard gas attacks. The French soon follow suit.

1918: U.S. Army Corporal Lee Duncans find an abandoned war dog station in Lorraine, France which has five young puppies in a kennel. Duncan takes one of the pups and names it "Rin Tin Tin" after the finger dolls that French children were giving to the soldiers at the time. The dog travels to California, proves easily trainable, and is soon employed making movies that are so successful it saves Warner Brothers studio from bankruptcy. The dog dies in 1932 in neighbor Jean Harlowe's arms, and is buried in Paris, but its descendents work in the movies throughout the 1950s, inspiring many people to try to train their own dogs to do simple tricks.

1925: One of the very first German-trained guide dogs for the blind is given to Helen Keller.

1926: Propelled in large part by the popularity of Rin Tin Tin, the German Shepherd population in the U.S. explodes, and by 1926 it accounts for 36 percent of all the dogs in the AKC -- 21,659 animals. Due to rapid inbreeding and poor selection, however, the American German shepherd quickly degenerates and is soon deemed inferior.

1929: Dorothy Harrison Eustis establishes the Seeing Eye Foundation to train guide dogs for the blind. Eustis goes to Switzerland to get a better stock of German Shepherds than she can find in America. This same year the AKC tries to ban the importation of foreign purebred dogs in order to protect domestic dog breeders, but the plan fails.

1930: About 400 dogs are employed as actors in Hollywood, the majority of them mongrel terriers which prove to be small enough for indoor scenes, rugged enough for outdoor scenes, and exceedingly smart.

1938: B.F. Skinner begins research into operant conditioning as a scientifically-based learning model for animals and humans. His special focus is on teaching pigeons.

1939: The AKC begins obedience competitions designed by Helen Whitehouse Walker who wants to prove that her standard poodles can do something other than eat food.

1942: The U.S. military says it needs 125,000 dogs for the war, and asks people to donate their large breeds. The military manages to train only 19,000 dogs between 1942 and 1945. The Germans reportedly had 200,000 dogs in service.

1943: In 1943, Marion Breland and her husband Keller Breland form a company called Animal Behavior Enterprises (ABE) to teach animals for shows. The Brelands had been students of B.F. Skinner (see 1938) and began teaching animals to peform tricks for shows and for commercial clients such as dog-food maker General Mills. They pioneer the use of a "clicker" to teach animals at a distance and to improve timing for affirmations and delayed rewards. The Brelands were the first people in the world to train dolphins and birds using operant conditioning.

1943: The movie "Lassie Comes Home" is filmed, featuring a purebred male collie playing the female staring role. Ironically, the U.S. military considered purebred (i.e., AKC ) collies so stupid that they were specifically excluded from military service in World War II, while herding farm collies were actively recruited.

1947: The Brelands (see 1943) begin using chickens as learning subjects with which to train other trainers, as they are cheap, readily available, and "you can't choke a chicken."

1953: Austrian animal behaviorist Konrad Lorenz writes "Man Bites Dog" and "King Solomon's Ring," books which popularize animal behaviorism.

1954: Baltimore reestablishes its police dog program, and today it remains the oldest police K-9 program in the country.

1960s: During the early part of the 1960s, Marian and Keller Breland (see 1943) were hired by the U.S. Navy to teach other animal trainers how to train dolphins. The Navy was interested in using dolphins to patrol harbors, retrieve lost gear, and guide bombs (i.e. "suicide bomber" dolphins). During their work with the Navy, the Breland's meet Bob Bailey, the Navy's first director of animal training, and they began a partnership with him. Keller Breland dies in 1965, and in 1976 Marian and Bob Bailey are married.

1962: William Koehler publishes "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" which becomes a staple of AKC obedience competitors. Though often criticized today, Koehler's methods are the core of a lot of effective dog training systems still in use.

1970s: The U.S. Customs Service begins to use dogs to detect drugs, and they are subsequently employed to sniff out explosives and fire-starting chemicals.

1978: Barbara Woodhouse publishes "No Bad Dogs" one of the first popular books on basic dog training. It relies heavily on proper use of a choke chain, and says most "bad dogs" have inexperienced owners who are not training their dogs properly by being consistent, firm and clear.

1984: The U.S. Dept. of Agriculture begins to use beagles to patrol airports for contraband food and other perishable items.

1985: Dolphin trainer Karen Pryor publishes Don't Shoot the Dog: the New Art of Teaching and Training which focuses on timing, positive reinforcements and shaping behavior, and draws heavily on the work of Marian Breland Bailey and Robert Bailey (see 1943 and 1960s). Her book promotes "clicker training" of dogs to improve timing and to allow trainers to communicate and "reward" their dogs from a distance.

1995: The U.S. Dept. of Agriculture begins using Jack Russell Terriers to locate and kill invasive brown tree snakes on the island of Guam.

2000 and beyond: Various cable television shows feature various dog training and rehabilitation methods. The notion that there are "new" and "old" dog training methods obscures the fact that ALL dog training methods involve some form of operant conditioning which is, in fact, pretty old stuff (as old as dogs). None of the dog training shows actually explain the core principles of operant conditioning or their relative worth in different training situations.

Things with humans go in cycles, when young generation bucks the methodology of the older generation as 'old garbage'

For instance the 'new modern preference for Malinois in police work is just a cycle as is shown in the above clipped history.

IMO Ceasar Milan nearly or could have ****ed things up as bad as Woodhouse if it wasn't for the likes of Victoria Stillwell, Zak George et al.

@ Asmit- All compulsion is dominance in core and clicker training was 'invented' in 1943.
Purely positive systems cannot work and don't exist. Simply by witholding the treat one is 'negatively punishing' the dog. It is to do with expectation.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:45 PM   #71 (permalink)
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You cannot force or use compulsion to do protection, just as you cannot force a dog to herd sheep.
You are quite wrong. A dog can be forced to do protection. I have seen it done many times to my utter disgust. However it does not negate the fact that it can and is done. It is done by pushing the dog into avoidance and then past it to where only fight or flight exists. Once they "fight" the drive can be molded.

Will it break the dog? it depends on the dog and the trainer - how much finese with compulsion they have.

There are also different levels of compulsion used, and let me tell you, there is a metric sh!t ton of compulsion used in protection training.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:09 PM   #72 (permalink)
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My father trained and handled different types of police K9s. He handled a Rott and a Dobie personally, and said that for whatever reason, finding a handler that was capable of dealing with the quirky Doberman traits could be/has been difficult. He said that the Doberman energy was different from GSDs, for example. He worked in a very mild climate and had no issue with extreme temperatures so I can't comment on that.

Now I could easily compare him to a doberman (LOL) so his personality matched perfectly with his partner's. He always preferred them, but what breed he got was not his decision...
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:11 PM   #73 (permalink)
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For the record, those dogs do not live in kennels. They are treated like gold and I can remember on multiple occasions the police dogs roaming around the department going desk to desk looking for treats!
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:15 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Reading a few of the posts on this thread, I am suddenly picturing Jim Carrey, flapping his cheeks and talking out of his butt.
I was just creeping this thread, but this post made me laugh so hard! Is this what you are referring to?

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Old 11-26-2012, 03:32 PM   #75 (permalink)
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You are quite wrong. A dog can be forced to do protection. I have seen it done many times to my utter disgust. However it does not negate the fact that it can and is done. It is done by pushing the dog into avoidance and then past it to where only fight or flight exists. Once they "fight" the drive can be molded.

Will it break the dog? it depends on the dog and the trainer - how much finese with compulsion they have.

There are also different levels of compulsion used, and let me tell you, there is a metric sh!t ton of compulsion used in protection training.
Agree wholeheartedly. I have a very good friend who was a K9 cop for years and we have had several conversations about "training". I think "compulsion" is an understatement of the type of methods they used. Yes, it does work. I'm not sure how well it would work on a dobe though, the level of "training" it sounds like they used on those k9s would completely shut down most of the dobes I've ever met. It's certainly not clickers and cookies.
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