eph94

My family had a Dobe while I was a kid, so it felt like a logical step to rescue a young Dobe for my family. Growing up, all I remember as a kid was how well-behaved she was and how she was the gentlest soul with all friends and family. But I obviously didn't know the behind-the-scenes work that my dad must have done to achieve such a great dog. Fast forward 20 years and now I have a Doberman of my own. And boy, having one is a handful!!

My Harley absolutely requires a good daily dose of physical and mental stimulation. If I take just one day "off" he finds a way to stimulate himself--and wouldn't you know that he *always* choose completely inappropriate behavior (digging holes, eating rocks, barking excessively, etc.). However, if I do keep him on his toes, I am rewarded with an awesomely obedient dog that is willing to learn whatever I throw at him. I've been through 14 weeks of obedience courses with him, taught him a good number of tricks, and walked probably well over 500 miles with him since we got him 8 months ago--400 of those miles with him heeling nicely at my side.

It's just that I can never seem to let my guard down. I have to run the household like a prison. Even so, if he could I'm sure he would tattoo the word "Question" one paw and "Authority" on the other. Every now and then, he tests boundaries and it drives me mad. I have to watch him like a hawk. And I know when he is going to do something that knows he shouldn't. I can read him like a book. First, he'll use his back paw to scratch the air, look over his shoulder a few times to see if I'm watching, and THEN dig or try to get into the trash or whatever mischief lies in his brain. Once I intervene, usually verbally is sufficient (but sometimes a nick with the e-collar is necessary), he'll stop. However, in 15 to 30 minutes, he'll be back at it again. So if I spot him doing something bad outside, after I correct him the first, I have to sit there, lying in wait for up to 30 minutes to correct him again. Just like that, POOF, 30 minutes of my day is put on hold unless I choose to crate him.

I would really love for him to earn his freedom (and set me free as a result too)! He's 16 months old. Is his behavior simply consistent with his age? I can't possibly spend any more time with him that I do. I've been fortunate enough to take time off from work since we adopted him, which is how I've been able to put all the time into him, but he's still a handful. However, at some point, I'm going to need to work again.

Incidentally, it seems like whenever I meet people as I walking Harley, so many of them say, "Ohhhhh a Dobie!! I *used to* to have a Dobie!" I swear it has been at least half a dozen people I've met who greeted Harley that way. I think I'm starting to figure out why they're FORMER owners!

One other thing I should add is that before I instituted martial law with him, he bit me three times during our first 6 weeks of ownership. During one of our third and final (I hope) fight, the one which gave me some decent scars, I actually thought I needed to kill him to end the battle. Fortunately, I was able to pick him up and body slam him to get him to let go of my arm. So this gives you some more background one why I have laid so much groundwork with him. I swear if I don't control every aspect of him life, he'll revert. One of the behaviorists we work with says he is a "powerful dog" since she sees other dogs submit to him very easily when all he has to do is look at them. And there was a Boxer/Mastiff cross that challenged him and ended up with 5 staples on various parts of his head and neck as a result.

I think I'm just getting a bit tired and could use a little pep talk. Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? Or is this going to be lifelong battle? I'm sure many of you have been in my shoes before, and I'd love to hear how you made out!

micdobe

This isn't normal, at least not in my experience, so I can't tell you if there's a light at the end of the tunnel, altho I doubt it. I know someone who physically fought with a couple of Dobermans but it was only one fight and that was the end of it.

Personally I don't want to engage in a physical fight with a Doberman, I think I'd lose. And I don't think it's necessary. I have had at least 1 Dobermans for the past 30 years, most of them males, mostly intact. Now I have an intact 2 year old male. He has never shown his teeth to me, except to smile, never growled at me. An example is tonight there was a dog barking in the next yard when he was outside. After I brought him in the dog started barking again, and Monte got all worked up and started barking back at him again.

I let him bark a couple of times, then told him enough. He would stop, but then start again. So I watched him, and when I could see he was listening to the other dog alertly, but hadn't yet gotten worked up enough to bark, I made the louss "AAAAAACH" sound that I've used to mean no to him since I got him, and he turned and came back to me without barking, at which point I praised him profusely. This went on a few times, one time didn't completely stop it, but it's working.

You might say he's not as tough a Doberman as yours. He's not the hardest Doberman I've ever known, or owned. But the two hardest Dobermans I've ever known never acted toward their owner like you describe either.

There is a difference between leadership and dominance. I try to show leadership to my dogs.

I don't know if your case involves a particularly sharp and hard dog, or is there is something going on in your household dynamic that is causing this.

Being able to back other dogs down has never correlated to this in my experience. My first Doberman was not a natural alpha dog, but because he was my first Doberman, he assumed the alpha role to the other Dobermans who joined us. He didn't do this by fighting, even with the males.
Truly alpha dogs are like alpha wolves and know they don't have to prove anything. If they are challenged by a subordinate wolf, then they will maintain their position by fighting if necessary. This did happen with my first dog and his nephew when the nephew started instigating fights. My dog had never started a dog fight in his life but he didn't hesitate to finish one if challenged. This had no effect on his relationship with me.

My advice to you at this point would be to not look at life with your dog as a battle, and look at it as a companion you have a relationship with. Dobermans as a breed don't need to be physicall dominated, they do need firmness, consistency, and fairness. Maybe you also need to find a different trainer or behaviorist, I couldn't tell much from the little you said about her. Dobermans as a breed *are* physically powerful. That's part of why, like horses, you can control them without having to overpower them.

RedstarDog

i have had some issues with stella such as her stealing my ramen noodles off the coffee table or barking excessively at children playing, she is a great dog, people on here are really helpful and know a lot more than i do about Dobermans. i would hate to see you completely give up on harley but i also understand no one likes living with the fear of being bit by their pet. i do find it odd that stella seems to be much more inactive than other peoples dogs on here, she doesnt even like going for long walks, she prefers to run around the yard in short sprints, her favorite activity is riding in cars and sleeping on the couch in my room, Dobermans are great companions and i cannot imagine my home without stella or snarf (the cat) best of luck and i hope you can work out the issues with harley, perhaps stella is just too lazy to do anything such as get into the garbage or the dog food, i would never try to challenge her physically though, what i found to be helpful is an encouragement stick, the loud whack against glass or the wall gets her attention and she understands the sound means STOP! stella will still steal food left unattended but she is getting better, patience and best of luck!

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dobes4me

I'm curious, before you rescued your dobe, did you have any background on him (i.e. behavior, if he'd previously bitten anyone, etc)? It concerns me that he has bitten you 3 times, with the last episode being pretty serious, it sounds.

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"A friend is someone who reaches for your hand and touches your heart."

Kratty

You do have your hands full. Being bite once is a concern for me. We were in training for a full year of different training classes we had ours. I would continue with training classes, even if you have to repeat a class again. This would continue to build a bond with you. Also it would develop a team work together. We also had to dog proof everything in the house. If its available to them, they will get into it if they get bored and its probably not what you want to get in. Make him work for everything (N.I.L.F). Sit/Stay for meals, treats, etc. I also have to have a heavy duty play session with my girl everyday, twice on weekends. Its now more of our time together, than a requirement, but still a necessity. We saw her testing her boundries around 18 months, so we had to be consistent with her, until she finally fell back in line. just my thoughts.

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alwayshadpets

The doberman you are describing I have never had. I have had them for 30 years. The high energy,yes-- I have had in various degrees. Biting, never. I would continue the lessons even if its repeats. The continued bonding will be worth it.
I`m not sure about the e-collar. Timing is so important, so I hope you are getting help in that area. Some dogs will make you the target if they think you are the cause of it.
Digging holes, sometimes can be because they are bored. Ususally when they are older it stops. No outside play alone for awhile if the holes bother you.
Getting in trash--thats easy keep in a closet. These are small battles--if they can be eliminated I would do it rather than make it an issue with you and him.
You really want to give more positive feed-back. Thats really all dobies want. They don`t want to have you mad at them.
Good Luck

waiting

To answer your question:
What do I like about dobermans?

The traits I like are their intelligence, playfulness, goofiness, quite loving, being ever so loyal to the family, sensitive.


What don't I like about dobermans?

Nothing is ever enough, hugs food, playing and that they are busy for alongggggg time and it seems one always has to reinforce because if your back is turned there right back at something you told them no too. not regular stuff sit stay down wait it is yummy garbage

Julie W

Wow, I don't know where you got your dog from, but yikes. I've shared my life with a doberman since I was 7 years old (40 now). They have all been the most wonderful, easy to live with, a BREEZE to train, naturally obedient, goofy, devoted and loving dogs I've known. None of them would ever even think of challenging me let alone actually biting. To ask why in the world people have dobermans because you have an individual with a bad temperament is pretty harsh.

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MandysBlackRoses

The only thing I "Hate" about Dobermans, Is the stereo typicaly crap that comes with them. My neighbor, just now flipped out on me because Rayna had wondered over there. We took our eyes off her for 5 mins while doing yard work. I guess his wife is scared to death of them. ~rolls eyes~ Why could'nt I have "dog people" for neighbors?

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~Mandy
Raven- 5yo/F Boston Terrier (Blk/White)
Rowen- 17 Months/F Doberman (Blk/Tan)
Rayna- 17 Months/F Doberman (Blk/Tan)

"She not what you would called Refined, She's not quite what you would call Unrefined. She's the kind of person who keeps a Parrot." ~Mark Twain

eph94

All the rescue knew was that he was owned by an elderly man who died in a car accident. The rescue did some basic temperament tests, to which he apparently did fine. They also figured that since he was still young that he was still malleable and that we could help determine the kind of adult dog he would be.

We took him back to the rescue after the third bite. Their trainer was out of town and they didn't want to take any chances until we got to meet with him again, so he spent a few nights back there. When the trainer returned, after watching us interact with Harley, he determined that given Harley's age (just 10 months at the time) that a positive outcome was still possible as long as we continued to shape his behavior and removed potential triggers. He also made a clear distinction between training and instinct/genetics, and to always keep that in the back of our minds. No matter how much training we do with him, if there are a couple of genetic screws loose, we'll never be able to fix that. However, we should use obedience to snap him out of it if he ever gets into "that" state of mind.

Every time Harley has bitten or bared teeth has been a result of guarding behavior. Of the three times he bit me, twice were over chew toys and the third was apparently guarding a space where food ONCE was. The one time he snapped at my son was when I was petting Harley. In this case, the trainer believed Harley was guarding me. And the final time that he snapped at my wife was when he was guarding his bedding. He had ripped the fill out of a comforter in his crate. My wife went to grab it (so wouldn't eat it) and he went loco. And every time he has fought with other dogs has been over a possession.

So, I've worked with three separate trainers to make sure I don't get pigeon-holed into one training modality. The result has been an incredibly obedient dog who listens to all three of us, even under distraction. We've proofed and proofed and proofed all over the place--pet stores, dog parks, the woods, doggie "romps" under the supervision of behaviorists, etc. I couldn't ask for a better behaved dog in this respect. Given a job to do, he simply excels. Just yesterday, I was walking him off-leash and squirrels and chipmunks were running around all around us; Harley raised his ears but never left my side.

I guess my frustration stemmed from the times he's off the clock, so to speak, and isn't being told what to do or how to behave. He is after all as house pet, and I see how dogs other friends' houses simply lounge around.

Well, it sounds like he's not the typical Dobe. He does have "some weird things going on in the deep recesses of his brain" as the trainer at the Dobe rescue said. The hope is that as Harley grows older and continues to bond with us that these "weird things going on" might go dormant. It has been six months since he lasted bared teeth at us. However, he will still fight with other aggressive dogs if I am not quick enough with my "Leave It" command. Twice I wasn't watching him with eagle eyes and twice he scrapped with other dogs. I averted maybe six fights by calling him off and removing him from the situation before it escalated. The owner of a doggie daycare where I bring him for continued socialization says the same. She said Harley "has his moments" but that since he is so obedient it is very easy to call him off.

It appears he is what he is and, no worries, I'll never give up on the little devil. We were placed together for a reason. I have never been a very patient person (hence the original "when will he get better" post) and boy have I learned the value of patience, calmness, clarity, and consistency since Harley has come into our lives. We have also noticed that he has grown a lot more affectionate over the past couple of months, so it seems our bond is growing.

Hope springs eternal!

Thanks for the words of encouragement everyone.