'Splain this to me. - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

autumnandkarma · 01-07-2010, 08:43 PM

Why do some owners here not spay/neuter their dogs right off the bat. I know that to show you keep thier parts together, but some people wait until after the first heat to spay.. why?

( No direct stabs at anybody, I just didnt want to hijak your thread : ) )

Miesha's mom · 01-07-2010, 08:46 PM

There are quite a few studies floating around that waiting to spay is healthier, and also that it cuts back on spay incotinence (duck spelling police). Personally I think that the hormones released are important for development, but thats just my opinion.

von Cosack Dobermann · 01-07-2010, 08:47 PM

Some people believe that dogs should remain intact till their atleast two years old so the dogs maturation process is not altered. VON.

autumnandkarma · 01-07-2010, 08:48 PM

damn, we whacked Karmas ovaries right out at 6 months, same with Autumn.

Miesha's mom · 01-07-2010, 08:48 PM

New Study – Extend Your Dog’s Lifespan by over 30% : Whole Dog News

thea2003 · 01-07-2010, 08:56 PM

Some people believe that leaving a dog intact until over a year is better for them, I personally dont. When you get down to it, its a personal decision.

caramella · 01-07-2010, 09:39 PM

I spayed Bella after her first heat, due to the studies that have been referenced.

Plus, to my mind, it makes sense.

Jenn1507 · 01-07-2010, 09:44 PM

Don't know but I am getting Brody neutered as soon as taxes come back...He is 7 months now so..... Poor boy but I never intend on breeding and looking @ Dobies on CL and in Rescue makes me wanna run him in there faster. He is strictly indoor but 10 minutes in the yard (fenced of course)...U never know....Better safe than sorry

**doberkim** · 01-07-2010, 09:51 PM

Nope, I don't think the studies have anything to really offer me, IMO. However, not only show dogs have reasons to be bred - working and performance dogs have things to offer the breed as well, and some of them are kept intact because despite not being show in the breed ring, their temperament, health, and working abilities are such that they can still offer something to the breed.

I'd probably spay a female at 6-8 months if I had no intentions of ever breeding the dog. I see no reason a female needs to go through any heat cycle, and I've lived through far too many mammary cancer scares and actual threats that if I can avoid it, I will. And the risk of pyometra is just something I hate having to live with.

(I assume this is in response to Berlin's sexy pants thread)

**Murreydobe** · 01-07-2010, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doberkim

I'd spay a female at 6-8 months if I had no intentions of ever breeding the dog.

So would I.

Coldfront · 01-07-2010, 10:10 PM

My first doberman had the whole leaking urine thing so I'm waiting to spay Cals in hopes of avoiding that particular PITA.

renee · 01-07-2010, 10:18 PM

This site has some interesting stats with spaying and neutering. I'm very fearful of osteo, so I will choose to leave my males intacted. My females I'll spay a couple months after their 1st heat.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongT...uterInDogs.pdf

This info is a cut n paste from the pdf link above

"
SUMMARY
An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do not yet understand about this subject. On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

"

3Dobes · 01-07-2010, 10:27 PM

Duke is almost a year, and we are waiting. Our vet said he thinks there is a relation between early s/n and ACL injuries, since the bones don't get the full benefit of the hormones. I have had two dogs with ACL injuries and it is not fun.
Duke will probably be snipped within the next three months.

autumnandkarma · 01-07-2010, 10:44 PM

I used to sell the "Spay young and the dogs wont loose overall life length" Which I never knew if it was really true, it wounded legitamite, how much longer would women live if they didnt have to go through the stress on their bodies from ovulating?

the_discowhore · 01-07-2010, 11:02 PM

Im finding it so difficult to decide when to spay Lottie, we had a rescue bitch that was spayed at the age of 5 and she developed both urine incontinence and mammary cancer, and we had a bitch spayed at 6 months who had neither when she passed away. I would like to keep Lottie intact until she is a year old or a year and a half but with all the intact male farm dogs that roam around I am very frightened of the idea! This is a decision which is keeping me up at night and she isn't even 4 months old yet!!

Quote:

Adverse reactions of Spayed Females:
- Increased aggression in altered females. (recent study)
- Increased occurrence of urinary calculi.
- Increased difficulty passing urinary calculi.
- Increased likelihood of vulvar pyoderma (urine scald)
- Increased likelihood of urinary incontinence.
- Increased likelihood of adverse reaction to vaccinations (27-38%).
- Increased risk of Hemangiosarcoma, a highly malignant form of cancer
- Osteosarcoma (bone cancer)
- Transitional cell carcinoma (bladder cancer)
- Autoimmune thyroiditis and hypothyroidism
- Endocrine dysfunction, adrenal disease
- Notable decrease of activity/drive. (this is important to those whose animals aren’t just pets but are trained to do work or performance too)
- Increased chance of “perpetual puppy syndrome” undesirable urination.
- Inhibited social adjustment if spayed prior to complete cognitive development (usually a while AFTER sexual maturity).
- Substantial likelihood of appreciable demeanor change after spay (menopausal women know about hormone drop.. it’s not fun)
- Increased likelihood of cognitive disorders if spayed before sexual maturity.
- Increased likelihood of, or speeded progress of, degenerative osteological disorders.
- Notable decrease in muscle mass (again, not all dogs are lawn ornaments or carpet speedbumps)
- Generally live 2 (or more) years LESS than unaltered littermates in controlled studies.

From the link that Miesha's mom posted
New Study – Extend Your Dog’s Lifespan by over 30% : Whole Dog News

Edit: Tubal ligation anyone? Can anyone send me any information about this? Anyone have this done on their bitches?

the_discowhore · 01-07-2010, 11:18 PM

Spaying (Ovariohysterectomy) Female Dogs

The internet is so contradictory... I don't know what to think!

**MIA** · 01-07-2010, 11:40 PM

I've been doing dogs at or before 6 months for 12 years now and I know some breeders on here have a longer history as well as breeders I know so I am fine with it. I haven't had problems to date and as a rescue I have no choice for my rescues. My personal dogs have been done at 6 months or earlier and never an issue. To each his/her own. Do all the research you can and go from there.

Performance dogs/breeding dogs of course aren't done early as they may have a reason to procreate, hopefully they are with responsible reputable folks.

**Patches Mom** · 01-08-2010, 12:06 AM

More confusion I did both of mine at about 6 months thought I was doing the right thing now not so sure but too late now can not be undone will have to hope for the best.

lolonurse · 01-08-2010, 12:26 AM

Our first female GSD and Boxer were spayed at about 6 months, and lived 12 + years, without problems. Our female shelter mutts were spayed at about 5 or 6 months, and did great. Our last GSD was spayed at about 5 years, and she never had a problem, and lived to 13.5 yrs. Melody was spayed at about 2, after an early and large (and unplanned/unexpected litter), and she did have intermittent issues with incontinence, and nothing helped, so she just lived with it. I see nothing wrong with spaying at 6-8 months, before first heat - a lot of shelters now do it at 8 weeks, before they adopt out puppies. I don't know anything about it, except they bounce back fast!

**crystal100** · 01-08-2010, 03:53 AM

Corona was still intact when Keylime arrived. I was waiting for him to fill out before the neuter. The thought of an unwanted, accidental tie,compelled me to have my girl fixed before her first heat.
Several Rottweiler breeders that I know, had been having their females fixed at eight weeks, before leaving for their pet homes. So, I didn't think there would be a problem with having her done at 6 months.
After all I have read on this forum, I would wait until after the first heat if I ever have another female. She does suffer from incontinence,so I would wait next time, just to MAYBE avoid that issue.
Corona was neutered shortly after his second birthday.

dragonflyz · 01-08-2010, 06:14 AM

We neuter our boys at 8 weeks and our gilrs at 12 weeks here at the Humane Society. I would like to wait till Sophie is 5-6 months and I am not sure about Tango yet. We are still waiting for those Majors to come close enough for us to compete.

**doberkim** · 01-08-2010, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_discowhore

Spaying (Ovariohysterectomy) Female Dogs

The internet is so contradictory... I don't know what to think!

that's because its the internet - and for about a quarter, anyone can put up a website and claim to be an expert, spinning the facts as they see fit.

and 2 days later, you have people quoting it!

**dax0402** · 01-08-2010, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doberkim

Nope, I don't think the studies have anything to really offer me, IMO. However, not only show dogs have reasons to be bred - working and performance dogs have things to offer the breed as well, and some of them are kept intact because despite not being show in the breed ring, their temperament, health, and working abilities are such that they can still offer something to the breed.

I'd probably spay a female at 6-8 months if I had no intentions of ever breeding the dog. I see no reason a female needs to go through any heat cycle, and I've lived through far too many mammary cancer scares and actual threats that if I can avoid it, I will. And the risk of pyometra is just something I hate having to live with.

(I assume this is in response to Berlin's sexy pants thread)

I have only had one female, Dax, and her vet at the time, who IMO, was one of the best vets we ever went to, always recommended spaying before the first heat. Dax was 9 months old and she lived to 11 1/2 and died of cancer. All the others were males and were 1 1/2+ when we got them and were fixed as soon as possible after we got them.

autumnandkarma · 01-08-2010, 08:58 AM

Wait, 8 weeks? That is shocking to me, how developed are the reproductive organs at that point? Sorry to be so ignorant this is a new subject to me.

I can definatley understand it from the standpoint of a resuce/humane society. Not wanting to have a dog go to a new home with owners who "forget" to spay/neuter. But how is it done at such a young age? I think of dogs organs in the same sense as humans, arent thier organs still growing for a little longer after 8weeks, isn't there some risk associated with doing a spay/neuter that young?

Man I have a lot to learn.. lol

Kansadobe · 01-08-2010, 10:41 AM

In regards to s/n early, 6 weeks - 6/7 months, I understand the necessity from a rescue/shelter stand point of view. Over the years, I have observed that dogs---regardless of the breed, when altered early are extremely androgenous in appearence.

As time goes forward and more research is published, the data is proving that the later s/n (after sexual maturity) has long range beneficial affects for the lifetime of the individual dog. BTW similar correlations have been drawn in hormone therapies with women for cardiac disease and osteoporosis-sp. But with hormone therapies there are concurrent cancer (breast, ovarian) concerns.

As Doberkim pointed out, the internet is SADLY lacking a BULLSH*T filter.

It is truly Reader BEWARE. There was this hackneyed phrase, believe none of what you read or hear and little of what you see--I am paraphrasing here.

Personally I tell our pet puppy homes to s/n between 12-18 months of age. That way the puppy will have the health benefits and look like the beautiful girls and boys they were meant to be.

I realize that opinions are like belly buttons, every one has one. This is what I have found to work for us.

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