What would you do if you already had a dog and a bitch and want a third Doberman?
SSA with males is very real (I've met some who aren't and a lot who are) and it's apparently a thing with bitches, too. So what's the prevalence? Is it a line thing? Can you go get one of Debbie's or Gary's dogs because you know Bob and Marie have a lot of SSA in their lines? Do you get an adult only? Do you get a puppy? And regardless of which direction you go, why. Why would you (or did you) choose one path over another?
I would really love to hear from you all on this topic, especially those who own or who have owned three or more Dobes at once. I have several friends in person who have done it, and I've picked their brains, but for the most part they seemed to not take SSA seriously, and never ended up getting a dog or bitch with it. That seems like a bad idea.
Not Dobes, and not necessarily SSA (more like dog intolerance in general), but I've currently got three bitches. Ilka is NOT friendly to dogs outside of the family. She was only two when I got Leo, and it wasn't too bad at the time. With Lily, though.... well, we are still doing crate and rotate. I can have Leo and Lily together with no trouble, and Ilka and Leo with no trouble. When I have Ilka and Lily together, I have to keep an eye out for Ilka getting snotty and possessive, but they are generally okay these days. One thing I am careful of is that there are NO toys, chews, etc. left lying about, because Ilka is a serious resource guarder towards other animals (including the cats).
Without knowing your dogs I say go with a female and ideally find a breeder with dogs with proven stable temperaments.
It's not a guarantee either way but it's less likely with a bitch versus adding another male imo. Just make sure you and the breeder are very clear that you need a dog who has the best chance to grow up to fit into your home.
Now there are occasions where a male is a better fit, but it's all in knowing your dogs and making sure the breeder does as well, in some more rare cases the home may have a more submissive or neutral male and a dominant aggressive bitch, in which case another male may be a better option, but the risk is there with any pairing and it's just something to be aware of and look out for.
While it is real, it is also very manageable if it does occur if you can find a reputable balanced trainer to work with you and your dogs.. Personally, I would go with an adult and let all of the dogs meet to see how they feel towards each other - that dogs temperament will remain steady and you already know where he/she stands as far as your dogs are concerned. Puppies grow and develop, as their hormones change they may decide that your other dogs are no longer as great as they used to be.. Consider the dog trainers that own several powerful breed dogs, unaltered, of the same gender.. It's not luck. It's structure, rules, balance, training -- and in the very worst cases, management. I wish you luck with whatever you decide to do!
I have maintained a same sex two Doberman (and Boxer) male household, on and off, for over 40 years. Honestly, it is a roll of the dice. The worst scenario: the dogs can never be together and you are in a 24/7 crate and rotate situation. This is probably the most stressful thing that can happen to a dog home.
I was fortunate in that I had a really nice outdoor kennel with a nice out building and a little old girl who got along with either boy. Never the less, it is a bitch (No, not that kind)
Then 2 sets of dogs ago. We had 2 males who, once the pup matured got along famously. I am going to attribute that to the fact that the older boy was a huge, aloof, stoic guy. One of the only truly alpha dogs I have ever met . Never mixed it up with either people or other dogs. He was the dog that no dog ever would think about approaching I think I saw him lift his lips maybe 6 times in his life.
Today we a have a boy approaching senior and a 2 yo intact male. They are great friends.
They play like typical Dobermans, They can drink out of the same water bowl and can sometimes share toys. That being said, except in the truck, they are NEVER left alone. When they play, it is always supervised. During an average play time, I will have to verbally separate them several times as it escalates.
So there you have three of my typical experiences with a same sex household: Horrid... Perfect....Guarded optimism. Some of this may be due to me being an innately more aware owner over the years. Its hard to imply cause and effect.
So... My bottom line: If you go with a same/multiple sex doberman household.... Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst.
Thats the best advice I can offer based on my experiences
I disagree with the above (mydogrulesk9), not fully, but to a degree.
While there are many people with multiple males, females, etc... of working or ssa prone breeds (including on this forum) it's the exception not the rule and it's certainly not something anyone here recommends chancing to those who aren't experienced.
I've seen and dealt with SSA and there's not necessarily anything manageable about it beyond strict crate and rotate and an extremely watchful eye. Yes dogs can be trained and they can very much know what is "appropriate" where, however it's been my experience that by no means does that mean it's worth the risk. I've dealt with breaking up a fight between two bitches, one hell bent on killing the other, and i've dealt with making sure they are apart 1,000% after, do they know well enough to be walked at the same time by two people with a reasonable gap and to mind their manners? yes, but is it anything i'd ever suggest? to be blunt, hell no!
I do agree, in situations like this an adult adoptee/purchased retired dog can be a much safer option as you "know what you are getting".
I respect that you disagree with what I've said and understand that you've dealt with serious situations in the past, however, I currently have two dogs in for training that have "SSA".. They were in multiple fights, each resulting in a trip to the vet and antibiotics, and have bitten the owner on a couple occasions while she was attempting to break up the fights. They've been here for a week - they walk together, are crated side by side to sleep, they can remain in commands right next to each other or while one dog is working and the other is required to sit still.. Can the gallop freely together without any type of structure and an untrained handler? Nope. But they can live peacefully together and will no longer try to kill each other when they do happen to be loose together.
But as I said above, to lessen the risk of encountering it, I would choose an adult that you feel compliments your current pack of pups.
I guess I should have been more emphatic. It is my experience that once the switch has been flipped, there is absolutely no going back. In my first example, these guys had been best friends for 5 frigging years. The youngest who we brought in at 8 weeks when our older by was 2 was the instigator. He was 5 at the time and the older guy was 7. This happened one night out of the blue. No way was this relationship manageable beyond keeping them completely separated.
I have two Dobermans and two German Shepherds. My two German Shepherds are both female. They got along great. The older one was sent for a few months to Germany for some specialized training (IPO) When she came back the younger female tried at attack her. Now the younger one wants to be friends but the older one will not have it. My two Dobermans, one is male and the other is a young female (under a year) They both get along with everyone. You can let the two Dobermans out with either Shepherd and everything is fine. SSA isn't wrote in stone. Life would be a lot easier if it didn't exist. But you just never know till it happens. Everyone's experience is going to be different. for you the real only questions you need to know is. If it happens am I prepared to handle it? Will I still be able to provide a good home for all the dogs or will I have to get rid of one? Just a little unasked for advice. If you do, never leave them together when you aren't home. You could come home to a real bad situation.
I have a reactive girl and a generally neutral male who are separated, if I put in a ton of effort with her I could do what you've got happening with your trainee's but we are honestly all happier and healthier to keep them separate and not have to always be on guard and it shows in the dogs as well. They appreciate their own space. It's what works for us.
Every dog and home is different and there are many "levels" or degrees of severity with SSA, and some can certainly be managed as your doing. Everyone has what works for them, as I said, it's just generally poor practice to recommend it on the board as we truly don't know the skill level of most posters and/or they are novice and it's just a disaster waiting to happen in my opinion.
But I think we've each made our point
OP, it would seem a good consensus though is an older dog if you are truly concerned, otherwise make sure you work with a breeder who very much understands and engages with you on your concerns.
I have a reactive girl and a generally neutral male who are separated, if I put in a ton of effort with her I could do what you've got happening with your trainee's but we are honestly all happier and healthier to keep them separate and not have to always be on guard and it shows in the dogs as well. They appreciate their own space. It's what works for us.
Every dog and home is different and there are many "levels" or degrees of severity with SSA, and some can certainly be managed as your doing. Everyone has what works for them, as I said, it's just generally poor practice to recommend it on the board as we truly don't know the skill level of most posters and/or they are novice and it's just a disaster waiting to happen in my opinion.
But I think we've each made our point
OP, it would seem a good consensus though is an older dog if you are truly concerned, otherwise make sure you work with a breeder who very much understands and engages with you on your concerns.
Absolutely agree. It all depends on the amount of time that can be devoted as well as the desire and skill level/insight as to what you should bring into your home.
THANK YOU EVERYONE for the replies! First, I want to clarify that this a hypothetical situation for me - I'm only planning on two dogs. It may or may not end up being hypothetical in the future, as I'm pretty set on another Dobe and I think I'll probably get a bitch. My best friend's dogs are all intact boys and we like long, off-leash hikes together, so I'd either have to alter my lifestyle with a male or get another bitch. While I'm keeping my eyes open, I'm not actively looking for another dog right now.
This conversation may not by hypothetical to a lot of people reading this, though. So thank you all for having different opinions but being respectful. This is such a huge topic with so many facets and little bits of personal experience woven in that we're not all going to agree. That's fine, but having more to think about is always a good thing. This is a topic that has fascinated me for a loooooong time. Most breeders/owners of SSA breeds use kennels or crate and rotate, but there are a lot of owners with two dogs of the same sex who don't seem to have issues.
I think it's a crap shoot. I've seen Dobes altered at a very young age get along with both sexes but not sure if it is the lines or the altering. G is great with me fostering so maybe you could try that? She only gets upset if another dog (sex doesn't matter) gets in HER bed (the one that she generously shares with me). Sometimes Mav is even nervous to jump in bed lol. Mav I alReady know won't allow other males as I can't even allow him to interact with unaltered males at a dog park. Could I make it "work" with some seriously harsh corrections and living my life like a jail warden and never trusting them alone/crate and rotate? Yeah, but why would I want too???? Sounds horrible!!!!
If your hypothetical becomes a reality, you might consider fostering for a local rescue. That would let you see all three dogs together for a period of time. If it doesn't work out, it's no harm, no foul. If it does work out, you'll have more confidence that the dogs do really get along. I suggest this partly because rescued animals can change personalities dramatically after a month or two. Many dogs leave the shelter shy and lower energy, only to "blossom" into more active, feisty dogs once they feel safe. That may work with your other two, but it's better to have the dog long enough to have a clear understanding of its true temperament once the adjustment shock has worn off.
I'm coming in late to this thread but since I keep multiple males (and never recommend that anyone else try this just because I've been able to make it work)I mght as well put in my 2 cents worth.
I've kept as many as 4 intact males together without getting into "crate and rotate" situations. I DO NOT KEEP BITCHES.
The 4 intact male situation was 3 Dobes and an Aussie. The age range was one old Dobe, one mature adult and one puppy under 6 months.
I've grown out a number of puppies for breeders who were trying to make a decision about which one to keep--so I was sometimes lucky enough to have a vacancy when I also had a puppy growing up who seemed to be a good match for the existing pack. I've also had puppies who went back to the breeder recommending that they go to an only male dog household.
I'm a reasonably good judge of dogs and how likely they are to be able to co-exist with other males.
About SSA--it's real. It happens. It is more common in males than in bitches. But it definitely also occurs in bitches and the worst dog fight I've ever seen was between two Dobe bitches. In that particular case one bitch was rehomed because crate and rotate wasn't a viable solution (multiple scatter brained children and an unobservant husband).
SSA--real SSA happens whether dogs are intact or neutered--and as others have said, everything is fine-until it isn't. And I think it's rare to be able to "go back to the way it was before".
Can SSA dogs be trained to tolerate other dogs of the same sex--sure, in situations where the dogs are on leash and handled by knowlegable, experienced people--you can see this at any dog show with a sizeable Doberman entry.
Things that I do to reduce the likelyhood of getting into an all out war between my dogs.
If I'm not home--no two dogs are left loose together. Separate rooms or crates.
No matter how many dogs I have no more than two dogs go out to play together. Add a third dog and it ups the possibility of a bullying situation where two of the dog jump a third dog.
When I add dogs, I add puppies and I keep the age separation at 2 or 3 years between them.
When two adult dogs go out to play together they wear basket muzzels--every fight I've ever had between two of my own dogs was because they got to playing too rough--one dog bit the other dog and there was a fight because the bite hurt! While I was two feet from them and in one second it went from play to fight The muzzels eliminate that situation.
But even though this stuff works for me (and John) I don't ever dismiss the possibility that some day with some dogs I'm going to end up in a crate and rotate situation.
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
1.8M posts
53.7K members
Since 2005
A forum community dedicated to doberman owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, health, behavior, housing, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!