Dobes&Hounds

Might as well be me. Since there have been a couple comments on here as of late about dogs not thinking, only reacting, I thought I would take it upon myself to post evidence to the contrary.
I am NOT saying by any means that dogs perceive feelings and thoughts the same way we do. What I am saying is the dog's brain is designed to think in it's own way. They are obviously not verbal creatures like humans are, and it is theorized that they think in images. The first study to that effect can be found here Pet Animal Behavior: How Dogs Think
Dogs can solve problems. It would be logical that they could as it is a survival mechanism. They can also learn by observation, and have the concept of object permanence.
Here are more recent articles studying the thinking dog...
What Were They Thinking? More Than We Knew. - washingtonpost.com

Dog Unto Others: Canines Have Sense of Fairness | Wired Science from Wired.com

#1 - Dogs Instinctively Understand Humans « Why Dogs?

The last article may be more along the lines of dogs evolving to co-exist with humans, but it demonstrates their ability to learn to communicate with a different species. Too bad so many humans have trouble understanding their dogs.

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Amanda

I asked Travis if he thought Athena could understand full sentences of different words she knows... he didn't think so, but I think he believes me now!

She knows "kisses" "mommy" "papi" "toy" "couch" and so on.

So I can tell her "Athena, go on that couch and give papi some kisses." She'll run over and do exactly that.

More and more it seems like she can put commands together and figure out things that I never thought a dog could do... I would start this out by saying "Mommy kisses" and she'd kiss me, I'd tell her good girl, then I'd say "Athena kisses" and I would kiss her so she could learn the difference.

I would love to see how far I could go with sentences! Maybe one day I could read her an entire freaking book and she could understand the whole thing.

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DLS

The Doberman IS a problem solving breed. No doubt in my mind that they can and do think things out, given the opportunity to do so.

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KEstep

I would give anything to figure out what Peaches thinks about. She definitely problem solves so she has that going for her. The other day we went out of town together on a 3.5 hour drive each way and I caught her staring at me while she was resting her head and I swear she was thinking to herself "What is HE (refering to myself) thinking about?" There have been some other times where I felt like she was wondering what my leg tasted like, but that's a whole other story.

michael327

One night I was working on a sample and my two were watching me.
As I was cutting off excess material Annika kept coming over and picking pieces up,ignoring leave it and forcing me to stop and take it away. We are talking sharp pieces of metal. After about the 6th repetition I took her down to the office for a time out in her crate. Needless to say she was not happy. About an hour latter I go down and let her out. She disappears in the shop, comes trotting back down to the office and drops a piece of metal at my feet, hops up and licks me.

Explain that one.

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Tess-a-boo

These are great articles. Lots to mull over here.

Part of the reason I wanted a Dobe was their reputation for being as smart as they are. Just like a dog that becomes bored without mental stimulation, I would become bored with a dog that didn't challenge me intellectually.

And Amanda...we do the same thing with Tess. It's "go give papa a kiss," "bring me your ball," or "go find your kong." I'm talking about a dog who knows her toys by name, for the love of pete! You've seen the video of her talking to the treat under the couch...don't you think she's just trying so desperately to say something in human words?

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Chatty

My dog thinks, and understands.

There is no doubt that the doberman excels in this area. They are a working, thinking breed. Very intelligent.

I see it everyday. And I second Amanda, Niko can understand what I tell him. Examples are, "Get your ball and lay on your pillow" - he does it. "Give (insert childs name) your ball" goes to the correct child with the ball.

Verbal- Niko is appropriately verbal. He will give my hubby the what for when he is not so willing to get on his rug at dinner time. It is a different type of response, not at all a growl, but he communicates through sound. I really have to tape that and post it, I just don't know how.

Many times I have caught him looking at me as if I have just flipped my lid that's OK too because at least he is thinking. :-)

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The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail and not his tongue.
-Anonymous

Take this pink ribbon off my eyes
I'm exposed and it's no big surprise
Don't you think I know exactly where I stand
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Dakota

Dogs not thinking... I won't even bother to get drawn into the discussion because I know it's bullcrap.

What in gods name do people think saying crap like that... like humans are the only ones capable of thinking logically. The arrogance and single mindedness of people who claim such stupid and ridiculous statements.

RedFawnRising

Thank you so much for starting this thread. I have been meaning to, but hadn't had time to look up any good links. Again, thanks.

Personally I alternate between being amused at how ridiculous the statement is: "Dogs don't think, they just react," and being offended by it.

I often wonder if folks who believe this have ever really related to this species. I can't imagine they've ever watched a good Service Dog work.

In addition to those things you already mentioned (just got home and haven't had a chance to read your links), dogs use symbology, too.

I taught Ezra to read flash cards for his basic commands. If a dog can look at a series of black marks on paper, and come to be able to associate what those marks mean, how exactly is that different from a very young child first learning written language? (This falls in with the concept of object permanence and extrapolation, as well.)

I think dogs are freaking amazing, that they learn to interpret an entirely different species' language, a species they didn't even evolve along the same genus/phyla with.

I have a million service dog stories that clearly demonstrate thinking, even abstract thinking.

It's an insult to the human partners of these amazing dogs to say they do not think. The dogs probably don't give a crap what someone says, but it's offensive to folks whose daily lives depend on these wonderful animals.

PM me if you wanna chat about the flash cards, Athena sounds like a good candidate, smartie girl!

Yes, I agree, this breed excels at this. I have known a few breeds, that, in general, seem to be much more concrete thinkers, and rather limited in intelligence.

Then again, we humans usually arrogantly define "intelligence," as "figures out what I want and need really fast and does it."

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crazyinluvwithmydobes

I absolutely believe that they understand more than people give them credit for. Our one dobe boy Sampson, will go and pick up whatever colored ball we tell him. If we say blue..he gets blue...if we say green...he gets green. He even knows the difference between his squeaky ball and his football. If we say, "go get your football", he'll search the whole house until he finds it. Smart boy he is.

RedFawnRising

I just recently read a story about a woman who has MS, and a pet female Doberman, who has never been trained to act as a Service animal.

Terra the Doberman was confined behind gates, while her owner showered. Her owner fell, and was unable to get up from the position in which she landed.

Terra, for the first time in her life, disrespected the gates, and came upstairs and proceeded to try to assist her owner in getting up from where she had fallen.

Both were exhausted with trying, and suddenly Terra left the room. Her owner was in despair, and all alone.

Seconds later, Terra was back, with the phone in her mouth, offering it to her owner, who was then able to call for help.

Think about that. That dog was not taught any of that. She had to make the connection that this little plastic object her owner sometimes spoke words at was the thing that was needed, right then--that the phone was the solution to her owner's distress and dangerous situation. And that it was up to her, to bring it to her owner.

Tell me that's not thinking.

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caramella

It is absolute nonsense to think that dogs don't think. I know Bella thinks and so does my 14 year old Golden Retriever. I had kept something away from Bella that she shouldn't have and put it away. She later went to her crate and fell asleep. She had been sleeping for quite a long time, but upon awakening went straight to the place I had taken that object. So she didn't only think, she kept it on her mind the whole time and as soon she was given an opportunity to retrieve the object, she remembered where it was. Heck! Sometimes I can't do that and I'm suppose to be the one with the brains! I tell Bella "go to the Frisbee place" and she runs to the spot in the yard where I throw the frisbee...well she does things like that all day long as I'm sure all your Dobies do, so to think they don't think is just plain silly.

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paws

Woah. Wait a minute. Woah.

I love stories like this.

When you think about it, dogs can interpret us a lot better than the reverse, they can understand sometimes hundreds of human words (I have had more than one dog owner tell me their dog's vocab was in the hundreds, at least) and what do we understand of their language? Damn little in comparison, same goes for our other domesticated animal companions. They know so much about us, even what our specific words mean (when you think about it, that is really mind blowing), and yet they, their language, their thought processes, are still such a mystery to us... I love that there is more and more research on this. I never got to watch it but I saw something about a show due to come out on television about specialists in the field researching how to really understand/communicate with dogs, and I mean doo-little style, I mean heavily researching how to REALLY listen and talk with them, to solve murder cases where only the dog was present. I thought that would be quite fascinating. Here they have been understanding us since the beginning of our long partnership with them, and we are finally looking into REALLY understanding them.

paws

I have a cute thinking dog story that just occurred. Having the new dobie in the house has made me realize how really smart my Min Pin is, I mean she is a crafty one. So her main obsession re. the dobie is that all ingestables (bones, chewies, treats, food) go to her, and none to him. So Tre had just found a chewy that was lying in some corner of the room. The MIn Pin meanwhile finds a tennis ball. SHe could care less about the tennis ball. But meanwhile she gets up on the couch and flips on her back and holds that ball between her paws, and sort of juggles it around on her feet, altogether acting like she is having the most amazing time with this ball. I mean, give her the Oscar, she is the picture of giddy contentment with the ball. So Tre who is a little slow (he's ony 4 months) comes up like a big goof (doh dee doh dee doh...) to see what is going on, chewie dangling nonchalantly out the side of his mouth... Min draws him in with her juggling trick, she is mesmerizing... she is having such an insane amount much fun that he has to have that ball. He finally can't stand it, he drops the chewie for the ball, Min fast as lightening grabs the chewy and takes off at top speed to enjoy her victory prize. Tre looks on dumbfounded as the ball drops out of his mouth. She does stuff like this with him all. the. time. He doesn't stand a chance.

RedFawnRising

*snort*

Tre, meet Ezra. Ezra, meet Tre.

Kylie is Ezra's Min, Tre.

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paws

Ah. Yes.

Hi RF I just noticed that in your earlier post on this thread you said the same thing I just said on my first post on this thread (but you were more eloquent as per usual), so that was a little redundant of me. (Does this mean you are Kylie and I am Ez??)... I just read all the beginning posts. But it does blow my mind that they get our language, hey does it make y'all wonder if they understand eachother's languages too, like birds and dogs, or dogs and cats, or foxes and rabbits? Like some Kipling story??? Why are we humans so removed from our animal brethern that we lost that ability so long ago?? Is it not saddening?

RedFawnRising

Children know it. And speak a lot of their language.

It just gets trained out of us, and by the time we are adults, most of us have mostly forgotten.

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paws

That is my sweet bedtime story as I head off to counting sheep land. Yes I do believe it's true.

caramella

Me, too, Paws. Good night.

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paws

'night you! And everyone!!

Crow

Anyone who thinks dogs don't think should come and watch working sheepdogs in action sometime. Yes, much of what they do is instinct (behaviourally, they are considered to be the closest of all dog breeds to wolves - herding is wolfpack hunting behaviour minus the the kill part). Some of it is training. But, as you can imagine, the life of a working sheepdog throws up many, many unexpected eventualities and when these happen you can observe the dog figuring it out and deciding how to respond.

We don't really understand "intelligence" - not even our own intelligence, nevermind the sorts of intelligence that animals display. Of course they don't think in the same way that we think, and they aren't as smart as we are, but that doesn't mean they don't think at all. My favourite example of a creature that confounds orthodox scientific understanding of intelligence is the crow. Crows have small brains - birdbrains, obviously. Yet they are able to figure out problems and not only do they use tools but they will also adapt them. Check out this YouTube vid for an example of that: YouTube - Tool-Making Crows First the crow tries to get at the food using a straight wire. That doesn't work so the crow figures out that it needs a hook. It bends the wire to make a hook and then it tries again - successfully this time.

We make waaaay too many lazy assumptions about animals.

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wantsaDobe

Wow, I had no idea that crows were such amazing animals. Crow raises kitten: YouTube - Crow and Kitten are Friends

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obiethedobe

Crow - Thank you for bringing up the sheepdogs. All the farm dogs I know are super smart and will definitely think about a situation and then act.

I had a sheltie boy growing up, Rascal, who was one of the smartest dogs I have ever known. He was a barker, so my parents bought a muzzle. We got to the point where if he was outside and barking we just had to show him the muzzle from inside and he would be quiet. We had a hook we hung it by the door. Then one day it managed to fall on the floor, not sure how but it did. Rascal was not a chewer at all, not a rope not a bone nothing. But as soon as he saw the muzzle on the floor he chewed it into tiny bits.

And another time it was spring and my dad had just brought the BBQ out and turned it on to warm up. He had left it too close to the house and it had started to melt the vinyl siding, Rascal who was outside by himself started screaming and throwing his body against the door to get our attention. I had never heard him make a noise like that and he wouldn't normally touch the door. I went out to see what the hell was going on just as the vinyl caught on fire. My dad put out the fire and Rascal got a steak for dinner!

Stone Hill Farm

Dogs not thinking? Well, that's a lot like saying grass isn't green. Of course it is. There are different shades of green, and different colors that blend together to make green, but the grass is still green.

It's apparent that guide dogs think, and go through a deliberation process, when they have to make a decision on whether a situation or object, something they have never seen or experienced before, is dangerous or not, and then decide whether to avoid it or continue on.

This is no simple reaction to stimulus. It's a problem, and it has to be thought out, and solved.

Yes, I know dogs think! If I ask Holly to go get Daddy, she not only knows who he is by name, but where he is at any given moment. It's the same with any other member of our family. I'm still trying to count the words and phrases that Sora and Holly, combined, know. I'm at 41 so far in 10 minutes of thinking about it, I'll keep you posted!

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When in doubt, wear red. ~Bill Blass

Stone Hill Farm

In a Psychology class years ago, we discussed a theory that submissive beings always understand the dominant being in their life much better than vice versa. A submissive person needs to study the dominant person continuously in order to understand what is needed in order to please them, stay neutral, or to or stay out of their way.

I can attest to that theory personally. My mother was a dominant person, and very moody. My sisters and I were very careful to monitor the situation everyday when we came home from school, and throughout the evening, and weekends. We knew just how to placate her from her expressions, body language or by what she said. I know she, in her busy life, never took the time understood us at all. But, she didn’t have to, did she? We would always be there, analyzing her, and fawning over her, regardless of how she behaved. Happy, sad, mean, mad or on a rampage – we were always analyzing our next move.

I guess it's a lot like that with dogs, they scrutinize us constantly. They must be studying us so they can harmonize with us and make sure they will continue to be accepted.

I do think people are finally starting to realize there is so much more to dogs than has meets the eye. I'm glad to be a part of this revolutionary way of thinking!

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When in doubt, wear red. ~Bill Blass