Thinking Dogs.. Somebody's got to start it - Page 3 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

Dobes&Hounds · 03-12-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipclop

idk but this thread im sure has good intentions... but is going downhill fast. Its the internets... I have learned a lot from many of you on this forum including dobesandhounds and Von.

Lets not forget that sometimes its just as valuable to learn what we DONT want to do as much as what practices we DO want to follow.

Von sometimes is a little flip... I can tell... but I dont think he is a terribly bad guy that beats his dogs or anything (i hope not anyways... lol). I also dont think that any of our advice is going to change his methods so lets not get too worked up here. To each their own... where we dont agree we're all welcome to discuss it openly in this forum and that is a good thing.
.

I don't think the thread is going downhill. I would just like to have a discussion. It would be nice if people who felt that dogs were just reactionary creatures would post something to back up those opinions. I am not trying to get anyone to change their methods, just trying to show that there's more to the puzzle than just reactions.
I will be the first to admit that dogs do react too. We can see fight or flight in a dog AND in a human. Sex drive, hunger, thirst, and the reactions they cause are pretty typical across the board for mammals. Humans and dogs both still have that little reptilian brain in their heads. However, let us not forget that mammals have a complex cerebral cortex and a developed frontal brain. Yeah, humans have a bigger one in relationship to the rest of their brains, but that does not diminish the fact that canines and other mammals have evolved these areas of the brain.
We share commonalities with canines. That does NOT make them human, and it does not make their thought process the same as ours. To deny the existence of thought in the canine doesn't even make sense from a survival/evolutionary standpoint. It's almost as if because some of us cannot define thought in other animals from a human perspective, it must not exist.
No, I don't think Vom starves or beats his dogs. That was never the implication. I guess I must be a member of the boob squad though since I clearly do not agree with his view on this subject.

**RedFawnRising** · 03-12-2009, 02:01 PM

It's almost as if because some of us cannot define thought in other animals from a human perspective, it must not exist.

Let's talk about that--what is thought?

It would be interesting to see some personal interpretations. I mean, we can all look up the Webster's definition, but let's expand on what we think comprises "thought."

Do small human babies think? Most people believe so, and science seems to bear that out, despite the baby having no written or spoken language as yet, per se.

Crow had great links, about birds using tools. I've even seen rabbits use tools.

I've seen animals manipulate their environment to be advantageous to them.

I've seen animals problem-solve. I've seen them form abstract concepts. One simple, but effective example--one of my dogs goes to the door to ask to be let out. Yeah, I hear y'all--you're thinking EVERY dog does that.

Nope, he goes to a door which we never, ever, ever go out of, to let me know. He's never once exited that particular door--BUT it is in my line of sight when I'm downstairs--and the other door is NOT.

That is a clear demonstration that he has a permanent concept of what "door" means, what an exit is--and that he needs to communicate to me that he needs an exit--and further, that *I* will understand his request for an exit--if he sits in front of one.

So, what is thought?

clipclop · 03-12-2009, 02:14 PM

I missed the name calling so if that is going on its a no-no.
Very good point on the question of defining thought vs. negating its existance. I agree....

**Kpablo** · 03-12-2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedFawnRising

It's almost as if because some of us cannot define thought in other animals from a human perspective, it must not exist.

Let's talk about that--what is thought?

It would be interesting to see some personal interpretations. I mean, we can all look up the Webster's definition, but let's expand on what we think comprises "thought."

Do small human babies think? Most people believe so, and science seems to bear that out, despite the baby having no written or spoken language as yet, per se.

Crow had great links, about birds using tools. I've even seen rabbits use tools.

I've seen animals manipulate their environment to be advantageous to them.

I've seen animals problem-solve. I've seen them form abstract concepts. One simple, but effective example--one of my dogs goes to the door to ask to be let out. Yeah, I hear y'all--you're thinking EVERY dog does that.

Nope, he goes to a door which we never, ever, ever go out of, to let me know. He's never once exited that particular door--BUT it is in my line of sight when I'm downstairs--and the other door is NOT.

That is a clear demonstration that he has a permanent concept of what "door" means, what an exit is--and that he needs to communicate to me that he needs an exit--and further, that *I* will understand his request for an exit--if he sits in front of one.

So, what is thought?

For the bolded lettering, speaking and writing is a learned behavior. Babies have thoughts.

Also I do believe there are different capacities of thought. For example, many researches believe people who are in a coma still "think" because there are brain waves being recorded and monitered. They may not be able to speak to us but doesn't mean they aren't aware of their "real" surroundings or in a deep dream.

Tess-a-boo · 03-12-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobermansrule

I'm sure this is no value add to this thread - I jumped in late and this post resonated with me

Oh yes, there's value! Value in making me feel like I'm not the only one who does this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobermansrule

hee he.. I do this all the time. Even while walking. I get odd looks from some. Some 'dog' people understand. But I'll chat away with him at home - him on the couch next to me, just looking at me talk, head going side to side, ears moving around.. then sometimes I say something he really likes and I get a big lick in the face.

Crow · 03-12-2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedFawnRising

[i]

So, what is thought?

I'd say that "thought", in this instance, involves assessing a situation and deciding on a course of action in response to it.

To use the crow example: there's food in a little bucket at the bottom of the jar. Hungry crow wants the food.

Reaction: crow keeps shoving it beak into the jar even though it can't reach the food

Thought: crow realises it can't reach the food by shoving its beak into the jar. Crow figures it needs to extend its reach. How? Hey, that handy length of wire will do the trick. But now there's another problem: the wire reaches down to the little bucket but it can't grab it. How to grab it? What if the wire is bent into a hook? Okay, that works. Crow gets the food.

Obviously animal thought processes don't use language. Possibly they conceptualise visually or in some other way that isn't really graspable by us. But a number of species clearly do problem-solve and problem solving requires thought.

**dobermansrule** · 03-12-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenny

Let keep it civil please. . . remember no name calling. It is in the rules.

is poo poo head ok? well, I guess that's name calling.. ok.. no poo poo head..

**RedFawnRising** · 03-12-2009, 02:41 PM

"Obviously animal thought processes don't use language. Possibly they conceptualise visually or in some other way that isn't really graspable by us. But a number of species clearly do problem-solve and problem solving requires thought."

Totally agree that problem solving requires thought. (Seems like that would be self-explanatory to everyone on earth, no?)

I wonder, though, about our human assumption that no animal "thinks in language."

We do know, now that animals, at least "higher" animals all do have some form of language, communication. (Some of it we just recently discovered, since it was beyond the perception of our human senses--thinking of the low-frequency sounds created by elephants, for example.)

Since you're interested in birds, have you ever read up on some of the songbird studies, about the regional "dialects" and the critical periods for young birds to be learning those?

It strikes me as eerily similar to human children's critical periods for language skills.

I can't help but speculate that if tweet-tweet-tootie-woot means, "I'm heading off to the cranberry patch, anyone with me?" that the same bird might not think it, in his own little birdie brain, to himself, before saying it out loud.

Something to ponder.

michael327 · 03-12-2009, 02:50 PM

Papa !! Papa !! My little girl just called me Papa - where the hell is my video camera??

caramella · 03-12-2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Cosack Dobermann

I'm not saying you shouldn't gather up all the information thats out there. And your welcome to believe what ever you want, as I do. I don't care if you feel that my methods are old or past there time. I am older than you, and my methods are proven every day by me, and all the thousands of people that came to me whether puppy training or extreme aggression promblems. I don't need anyones avalidation. I realize I'm a big part of the day for many people on this forum, you go looking for my threads to see if you have an opportunity to disagree and hopefully have an audiance to display your opinions, again I don't care, I'm guilty of getting arise out of some of you myself. So once again here we are agreeing to disagree. Have a great day, and don't forget to train em up..........thanx to my fan club for also chiming in, the always entertaining BOOB CREW

Bold, mine.
I think you over estimate your nuisance value.

Believe it or not, you are just one of the many on here, certainly not a Rock among Stones, in my view. It's a lot more fun just being one of the group, instead of seeing yourself as above or below. I highly recommend you try it so we can continue to enjoy your 'point of view' as one of the many instead of some great PooBah come here to save us from our ignorance with your mighty 'train 'em up'. It's a forum, not a small kingdom to which you've been self-appointed as King.

Dobes&Hounds · 03-12-2009, 03:03 PM

There is a school of belief that thought does not exist. Everything we "think" or do isn't a product of consciousness, but a complex pre-determined pattern defined by our genes and biochemistry. I remember discussing this in college psychology and being disturbed by it. This would imply that I am NOT a unique being, making my own decisions, and having personal likes and dislikes. What am I? What am I made of? Carbon, water, chemicals, with an electrical current running my biological circuitry? Everything I think I am is false, it is created by my mind which is programmed by my genetics!
My whole concept of "self" had been threatened. To a degree I believe that the idea of another species having conscious thought is threatening to some human's sense of self and identity. In my reality we are all a part of each other and the earth. We try to define what makes us special... self-awareness, a soul perhaps?
Our belief or disbelief of thought in other species is largely defined by how we perceive ourselves as humans.
We are everything, and nothing at all.

Crow · 03-12-2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

I wonder, though, about our human assumption that no animal "thinks in language."

Well now we get on to the question of "what is language?" (actually I only made that comment language so no one would mistake my crow-thinking for anthropomorphising)

Quote:

We do know, now that animals, at least "higher" animals all do have some form of language, communication.

Absolutely - and not just vocal language but also body language, scent language, dance language (bees) etc.

Quote:

Since you're interested in birds, have you ever read up on some of the songbird studies, about the regional "dialects" and the critical periods for young birds to be learning those?

I'm mostly only interested in corvids but yes, I have heard of this. Reminds me of when I went to New Zealand - there were loads of birds around that looked very much like British birds (obviously I don't mean kiwis here but birds such as blackbirds, thrushes, sparrows etc). Only they sounded entirely different to British birds, as if they'd developed an entirely different repertoire of sounds (which I suppose they had).

You might like this brilliant snippet from a David Attenborough series - the lyre bird: YouTube - Amazing! Bird sounds from the lyre bird - David Attenborough - BBC wildlife

But whether this is "language" as we know it, I'm not so sure. Obviously it's communication - basically, "listen to all the great sounds I can make! Then come and have sex with me!". But its component parts aren't really equivalent to words, grammar etc.

**RedFawnRising** · 03-12-2009, 03:15 PM

But whether this is "language" as we know it, I'm not so sure. Obviously it's communication - basically, "listen to all the great sounds I can make! Then come and have sex with me!".

In fairness, many human males do/say the exact same thing, only they use cars, clothes, and cash, rather than song. (Oh wait, I forgot the allure of a musician, hmmm.)

**bubsy** · 03-12-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpablo

I have to admit sometimes I anthropomorphize, but try to catch myself =/

I carry Murphy around in one of those baby slings...is there something wrong with that?

clipclop · 03-12-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubsy

I carry Murphy around in one of those baby slings...is there something wrong with that?

wow. must be a helluva sling! I know this might sound totally absurd... but I can still hold Wyatt like a baby... I have to be sitting on the couch... but he lets me flip him on his back onto my laps. He is such a love bug!

**dobermansrule** · 03-12-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubsy

I carry Murphy around in one of those baby slings...is there something wrong with that?

Not at all!!

**avalonandon** · 03-12-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Cosack Dobermann

The reason behind my statement about reaction opposed to thinking, was for a member here in the most difficult decision time concerning her dog. She made a statment that her choices were weighing on her and she didn't want her dog THINKING poorly of her. So my statement wasn't whether dogs think or not, it wasn't to start a debate on it, it wasn't a question of how a dog does anything. It was to comfort our member that her chioce was going to
be alright by her dog, to try to remove some of the weight she was feeling.
That being said the other comment about my pup not getting dinner or whatever I said ,was a joke, how anyone would percieve anything different is ridiculous.
You can look at any study you want there is NO clear evidence of THINKING in a human sense by anyone. Don't misinturpet, genetics for tasks, imaging and object permanence as thinking. The studies on Primates was intriguing because of the simularites to humans, now studies on dogs because of the relationships most recently (50 years) of the pet, as opposed to a dog working (not sport of any kind) an actual job. Our obsessions with our dogs to make them more human like borders on personnal needs not fullfilled in our lives. The dog is a BABY and were mommy and daddy, if you talked and felt like that not to long ago your family and friends would be very concerned. Stop humanizing dogs it's not good for them and more importantly not good for you. As for sight, dogs are color blind in comparison to us. Shades of grey, also light violet depending on light, also a soft yellow again depending on light, usually artificial. Now all these studies will go on because thats what grant money is all about, and some day maybe a person will happen upon a revalation that astounds us, but for now just train em up.
Von

I dont think it is anthropomorphizing. I think it is an effort to find common ground with other creatures. We are fascinated with them but daunted by this barrier - so we enjoy the occasions when that gap is made smaller.

It is also in a sense validating, because we see that we as humans are not alone in the world - dogs, cats, birds, etc etc, show signs of rational processes and share some of our perceptions and understanding of the world around them.

It is just like any other scientific endeavor to understand but this is different because it involves sentient beings rather than chemistry, physics, astronomy, etc.

caramella · 03-12-2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedFawnRising

Bold emphasis mine.

Funny, D&H. I couldn't agree more.

I have a friend who insists her dogs are her "kids" and once got very insulted when I asked how her dogs were doing.

I proceeded to read her the riot act about it. How DARE she insult dogs by calling them human? Dogs are much more giving, much less Machiavellian (well, maybe with the exception of Paws' little Min girl), and overall, just, sorry, more honorable and honest in their motives, in my mind, than many humans I've met.

All of that is somewhat beside the point though, since we are debating whether in fact dogs "think." Egregiously simplistic to assume they do not.

Also, there've been some points raised about "intelligence" and what it is here.

Most humans think we are the smartest beings on Earth, right? (Read Douglas Adams)

What if that intelligence is situational?

When it comes to finding cadavers or lost, injured folks in a building collapse, who is smarter? When it comes to sensing an impending seizure in a person, who is smarter? When it comes to living off the land, who is smarter, and needs no real equipment, to do so?

I once read a book where some aboriginal Australian people assumed a lost man was crazy and delusional, because he was dying of thirst in the outback, and had obviously been starving for some time.

Food and water were ALL around him, they pointed out to him, when he protested their assumption. Why hadn't he just relieved his hunger and thirst? He must be delusional.

They were so much smarter than him they had to make him crazy--since they couldn't fathom why he didn't have the same skill set they did, for finding the means to survive in that harsh land.

The Europeans who came to America were so much smarter than the Native people that they were able to use their superiority to wrest the lands from them. Now, this self-sustaining little plot of a continent is, er, doing so well, huh?

What is smart? What is thinking?

Personally, I'm hoping for wisdom, over both of those, someday

Gosh, you're GOOD!! and WISE.

eventermal · 03-12-2009, 04:36 PM

I don't really know how this fits in, but Vixie does have different sounds for different things. Her whine is different when she has to go out at night, and that one whine is the ONLY one that will make me wake up and let her out. She has different barks for when she is startled and when she is allerting me of something.

Nick can't hear the difference, but I know what she wants/needs by the vocalization she makes.

Teufelhund · 03-12-2009, 05:06 PM

Well I think Von Cossack is getting a bad rap here from quite a few people. If he has a different perspective on things that have proven successful in the past, then he should share these experiences.
Hearing different sides of a situation results in a better learning experience for all parties (that are at least willing to think about a 'different' approach).
Criticizing grammar, and 'slogans' (eg Train 'em Up) does nothing but create needless friction, and hurt feelings.
Debates are healthy ..... arguments and flaming are counter-productive, and it seems the only time Von has had to 'lash back' a little is after he was 'lashed at' quite harshly.
Bickering over personalities does this Forum no good at all.
As far as 'thinking' and 'humanizing' ....... I wonder what a dog thinks when he is made to wear a silly birthday party hat or dress up for Halloween ?

clipclop · 03-12-2009, 05:13 PM

i wish i had a girl dobie- then i wouldnt feel as guilty making her wear stuff haha

Dobes&Hounds · 03-12-2009, 05:23 PM

A bad rap? From whom? Coming on to a forum and making statements that are not supported, and then being questioned is NOT being flamed. If you are going to post on a public board, you (generic) are putting yourself out there for scrutiny. Nobody has called him anything, however instead of debating HE came back with insults to the people who didn't share his view. I don't see him sharing experience.
I don't dress my dogs up in party hats. I do however put fido fleece on my Pharaoh Hounds as they have very little body fat, and shiver in the house. They hold still to have their coats put on and are not bothered by them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teufelhund

Well I think Von Cossack is getting a bad rap here from quite a few people. If he has a different perspective on things that have proven successful in the past, then he should share these experiences.
Hearing different sides of a situation results in a better learning experience for all parties (that are at least willing to think about a 'different' approach).
Criticizing grammar, and 'slogans' (eg Train 'em Up) does nothing but create needless friction, and hurt feelings.
Debates are healthy ..... arguments and flaming are counter-productive, and it seems the only time Von has had to 'lash back' a little is after he was 'lashed at' quite harshly.
Bickering over personalities does this Forum no good at all.
As far as 'thinking' and 'humanizing' ....... I wonder what a dog thinks when he is made to wear a silly birthday party hat or dress up for Halloween ?

Jennifer01 · 03-12-2009, 05:37 PM

Well, I put my dogs in party hats, and frankly, I don't think it's a big deal. I have not noticed any negative repercussions from my actions.

I think it's cute and funny. It does not mean that there is an imbalance of power in my house in favor of the dogs. It does not mean that I am not unaware of the dogs' place in the household. It does not mean that I ignore training. It's just fun and games.

Back to the topic of problem solving in dogs, I was told the following story about two dogs:

Black Lab was an older male that started to have trouble holding his bladder through the night. Black Lab and the GSD (a younger female) slept in the master bedroom with mom and dad.

Unfortunately, Black Lab was not very vocal about needing to go out. If he had to go in the middle of the night, he would pad quietly to the door, sit down and look expectantly at the sleeping couple. If no one woke up, he would just lift his leg and go. The sound of running liquid was usually enough to wake the sleeping couple.

The couple would usually jump out of bed and scurry around like cockroaches with their heads cut off.

One or both of them would try to get Black Lab to stop peeing long enough to make it out side. If that didn’t work, the humans grabbed the nearest mug (or bowl or cup) to catch the flow of urine in an attempt to save the carpet.

One night the GSD woke up Mom and Dad. They sat up and saw that Black Lab was sitting quietly by the door looking at them. They took him out and he went to the bathroom. Thereafter, she was Black Lab’s bathroom alarm. She kept up her job until Black Lab died a year ago.

My sister told me this story. They were her dogs.

**Amanda** · 03-12-2009, 06:19 PM

Pssssh, what's so wrong with putting a party hat on a dog on their birthday?!

I buy Athena a huge bag of premium kibble every month. I buy her a new toy almost every week even though she has at least twenty at home. I take her on walks. I play with her outside. I take her to baseball fields. I play hide and seek with her even if it's not fun anymore. I take her to obedience classes. I take her on play dates. I throw the ball for her in the house until my arm feels like it will fall off. I sing to her even when I am feeling blue. I take her to my mom's house for even more spoiling, love, and attention. I hug and kiss her like there is no tomorrow. She has and will always have a place in my lap. I take her to the vet and pay the bills without hesitation if the slightest thing could be wrong with her. She gets special treats of fruits, veggies, and kongs. I do constant research every time I try something new with her. I am always looking for new ways to challenge her both mentally and physically.

She can deal with a party hat for ten minutes of pictures on her birthday.

**Chatty** · 03-12-2009, 06:44 PM

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, in fact this is what makes life interesting.

I guess there are some in this forum who were revolted when I posted a pic of Niko dressed up as Hanna Montana for the Halloween contest. Maybe even thinks I am crazy for using the pic in my sig.

I also talk to the Himmy man and find pure joy in his response to my doing so.

I also do what clip clop does and hold him like a baby in my lap, I will admit that it is harder to do now that he is a big boy. I do what Amanda does,minus the new toy each week.

He vocalizes, yes he does, and it's not just random. Read my first post about it.

My dog is super smarty man and would talk to me if only his vocal cords would allow. I wonder, if he had opposable thumbs would he get his own food, fold the laundry?

I do not think there is anything wrong with any of this..... my dog loves the treatment he gets and "thinks" of ways to get more.