Thinking Dogs.. Somebody's got to start it - Page 3

Crow · 03-12-2009, 04:29 AM

Anyone who thinks dogs don't think should come and watch working sheepdogs in action sometime. Yes, much of what they do is instinct (behaviourally, they are considered to be the closest of all dog breeds to wolves - herding is wolfpack hunting behaviour minus the the kill part). Some of it is training. But, as you can imagine, the life of a working sheepdog throws up many, many unexpected eventualities and when these happen you can observe the dog figuring it out and deciding how to respond.

We don't really understand "intelligence" - not even our own intelligence, nevermind the sorts of intelligence that animals display. Of course they don't think in the same way that we think, and they aren't as smart as we are, but that doesn't mean they don't think at all. My favourite example of a creature that confounds orthodox scientific understanding of intelligence is the crow. Crows have small brains - birdbrains, obviously. Yet they are able to figure out problems and not only do they use tools but they will also adapt them. Check out this YouTube vid for an example of that: YouTube - Tool-Making Crows First the crow tries to get at the food using a straight wire. That doesn't work so the crow figures out that it needs a hook. It bends the wire to make a hook and then it tries again - successfully this time.

We make waaaay too many lazy assumptions about animals.

wantsaDobe · 03-12-2009, 05:12 AM

Wow, I had no idea that crows were such amazing animals. Crow raises kitten: YouTube - Crow and Kitten are Friends

obiethedobe · 03-12-2009, 08:50 AM

Crow - Thank you for bringing up the sheepdogs. All the farm dogs I know are super smart and will definitely think about a situation and then act.

I had a sheltie boy growing up, Rascal, who was one of the smartest dogs I have ever known. He was a barker, so my parents bought a muzzle. We got to the point where if he was outside and barking we just had to show him the muzzle from inside and he would be quiet. We had a hook we hung it by the door. Then one day it managed to fall on the floor, not sure how but it did. Rascal was not a chewer at all, not a rope not a bone nothing. But as soon as he saw the muzzle on the floor he chewed it into tiny bits.

And another time it was spring and my dad had just brought the BBQ out and turned it on to warm up. He had left it too close to the house and it had started to melt the vinyl siding, Rascal who was outside by himself started screaming and throwing his body against the door to get our attention. I had never heard him make a noise like that and he wouldn't normally touch the door. I went out to see what the hell was going on just as the vinyl caught on fire. My dad put out the fire and Rascal got a steak for dinner!

Stone Hill Farm · 03-12-2009, 09:35 AM

Dogs not thinking? Well, that's a lot like saying grass isn't green. Of course it is. There are different shades of green, and different colors that blend together to make green, but the grass is still green.

It's apparent that guide dogs think, and go through a deliberation process, when they have to make a decision on whether a situation or object, something they have never seen or experienced before, is dangerous or not, and then decide whether to avoid it or continue on.

This is no simple reaction to stimulus. It's a problem, and it has to be thought out, and solved.

Yes, I know dogs think! If I ask Holly to go get Daddy, she not only knows who he is by name, but where he is at any given moment. It's the same with any other member of our family. I'm still trying to count the words and phrases that Sora and Holly, combined, know. I'm at 41 so far in 10 minutes of thinking about it, I'll keep you posted!

Stone Hill Farm · 03-12-2009, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paws

Woah. Wait a minute. Woah.

I love stories like this.

When you think about it, dogs can interpret us a lot better than the reverse, they can understand sometimes hundreds of human words (I have had more than one dog owner tell me their dog's vocab was in the hundreds, at least) and what do we understand of their language? Damn little in comparison, Here they have been understanding us since the beginning of our long partnership with them, and we are finally looking into REALLY understanding them.

In a Psychology class years ago, we discussed a theory that submissive beings always understand the dominant being in their life much better than vice versa. A submissive person needs to study the dominant person continuously in order to understand what is needed in order to please them, stay neutral, or to or stay out of their way.

I can attest to that theory personally. My mother was a dominant person, and very moody. My sisters and I were very careful to monitor the situation everyday when we came home from school, and throughout the evening, and weekends. We knew just how to placate her from her expressions, body language or by what she said. I know she, in her busy life, never took the time understood us at all. But, she didn’t have to, did she? We would always be there, analyzing her, and fawning over her, regardless of how she behaved. Happy, sad, mean, mad or on a rampage – we were always analyzing our next move.

I guess it's a lot like that with dogs, they scrutinize us constantly. They must be studying us so they can harmonize with us and make sure they will continue to be accepted.

I do think people are finally starting to realize there is so much more to dogs than has meets the eye. I'm glad to be a part of this revolutionary way of thinking!

Stone Hill Farm · 03-12-2009, 09:58 AM

I wonder where all the "non believers" are this morning?

**dax0402** · 03-12-2009, 10:13 AM

Thanks Dobes&Hounds for the articles. Have book marked them to read when I have more time. My Dax knew lots of words. We got Dax right after I retired and was home with her the majority of her life. She knew animal words like squirrel, groundhog, and my favorite was hawk. If I said hawk, she would immediately look up in the air to find it. Baron is now getting the idea of certain words. He was in a kennel the first year of his life so he really had no one talking to him very much. So we are working on it. Love all the stories about how smart these Dobes really are.

**clipclop** · 03-12-2009, 10:20 AM

I agree with a lot if not all that has already been said. I wanna try and serve devils advocate- not in the manner of stating that dogs dont think- but in defining what exactly constitutes "thinking".

I know the exact quote and who said it... "dogs dont think they react" and I'm not sure if there is history behind this poster or if we are taking him out of context. How many times has a person come on this board upset their dog peed on their favorite pair of shoes to spite them? Most of us knowing better come back stating that dogs dont "think" that way. Is it possible we attribute dogs "thinking" when that action (thought) is used for something positive (fetching the phone story... or tricking the dog to get the chewy) vs. something negative (my owner left me alone in this room and Im going to hop on the bed and pee on it to show im upset) I think Von's point was... is Lexx capable of thought needed to decide what medical treatment is best for him? no. Will he be reactive to the effects of whatever treatment is decided for him? yes.

I could be way off base...

but just "thinking" out loud... pardon the pun.

Many of us on this board have tried to caution folks from assuming dogs are capable of the SAME TYPE of thought as humans because ... well lets face it... we've all seen the effects of folks that anthromorphize our animals and 9 times out of 10 its not to the dog's benefit to do that.

The statement "do dogs think" can be answered yes or no depending on what you define as thought... thats my only point.

**Kpablo** · 03-12-2009, 10:26 AM

Louie and Scoob both know right from wrong. For example not peeing in the house. They know they will be in big trouble for peeing in the house, therefor they know it must be wrong. That is thinking. Scooby and Louie know when it is time to go outside that is thinking. They have to think! They also know when it is bath time, bath time they freak. Dogs have emotions, not as deep or sophisticated as ours, but they do have emotions.

obiethedobe · 03-12-2009, 10:28 AM

You are absolutely right Clipclop everyone has a different definition of what thought is and intelligence is. The articles posted by the OP really put it in perspective.

I think this thread may have been inspired by Von's statement but it's in a totally different context from what he meant and what we are discussing now.