Thinking Dogs.. Somebody's got to start it - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

Stone Hill Farm · 03-12-2009, 09:58 AM

I wonder where all the "non believers" are this morning?

**dax0402** · 03-12-2009, 10:13 AM

Thanks Dobes&Hounds for the articles. Have book marked them to read when I have more time. My Dax knew lots of words. We got Dax right after I retired and was home with her the majority of her life. She knew animal words like squirrel, groundhog, and my favorite was hawk. If I said hawk, she would immediately look up in the air to find it. Baron is now getting the idea of certain words. He was in a kennel the first year of his life so he really had no one talking to him very much. So we are working on it. Love all the stories about how smart these Dobes really are.

clipclop · 03-12-2009, 10:20 AM

I agree with a lot if not all that has already been said. I wanna try and serve devils advocate- not in the manner of stating that dogs dont think- but in defining what exactly constitutes "thinking".

I know the exact quote and who said it... "dogs dont think they react" and I'm not sure if there is history behind this poster or if we are taking him out of context. How many times has a person come on this board upset their dog peed on their favorite pair of shoes to spite them? Most of us knowing better come back stating that dogs dont "think" that way. Is it possible we attribute dogs "thinking" when that action (thought) is used for something positive (fetching the phone story... or tricking the dog to get the chewy) vs. something negative (my owner left me alone in this room and Im going to hop on the bed and pee on it to show im upset) I think Von's point was... is Lexx capable of thought needed to decide what medical treatment is best for him? no. Will he be reactive to the effects of whatever treatment is decided for him? yes.

I could be way off base...

but just "thinking" out loud... pardon the pun.

Many of us on this board have tried to caution folks from assuming dogs are capable of the SAME TYPE of thought as humans because ... well lets face it... we've all seen the effects of folks that anthromorphize our animals and 9 times out of 10 its not to the dog's benefit to do that.

The statement "do dogs think" can be answered yes or no depending on what you define as thought... thats my only point.

**Kpablo** · 03-12-2009, 10:26 AM

Louie and Scoob both know right from wrong. For example not peeing in the house. They know they will be in big trouble for peeing in the house, therefor they know it must be wrong. That is thinking. Scooby and Louie know when it is time to go outside that is thinking. They have to think! They also know when it is bath time, bath time they freak. Dogs have emotions, not as deep or sophisticated as ours, but they do have emotions.

obiethedobe · 03-12-2009, 10:28 AM

You are absolutely right Clipclop everyone has a different definition of what thought is and intelligence is. The articles posted by the OP really put it in perspective.

I think this thread may have been inspired by Von's statement but it's in a totally different context from what he meant and what we are discussing now.

Dobes&Hounds · 03-12-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obiethedobe

You are absolutely right Clipclop everyone has a different definition of what thought is and intelligence is. The articles posted by the OP really put it in perspective.

I think this thread may have been inspired by Von's statement but it's in a totally different context from what he meant and what we are discussing now.

I would like him to weigh in on it.
My original intent was not to say that dogs think as humans do. They don't "get revenge" or "hate you because you have been gone so long" etc. There are different kinds of thinking and intelligence.
Problem solving is a big one. I will give an example of it.
My Pharaoh Hound Lita was chewing on a rawhide and it was getting too small. I took it away from her and threw it away. The trash can was sitting on top of a mini- fridge with a crate beside it. It was one of the ones that you have to slide part of the lid up to open it. Lita watched me throw her bone nub out. She then proceeded to hop up on the crate, put her front paws on top of the mini-fridge, slide the top of the trash open with her nose and remove her bone from the top of the trash heap. There was no training involved. She figured out how to step up on the crate and slide the lid open within seconds of me throwing the bone away. THAT is a thinking dog ;-P

von Cosack Dobermann · 03-12-2009, 11:36 AM

The reason behind my statement about reaction opposed to thinking, was for a member here in the most difficult decision time concerning her dog. She made a statment that her choices were weighing on her and she didn't want her dog THINKING poorly of her. So my statement wasn't whether dogs think or not, it wasn't to start a debate on it, it wasn't a question of how a dog does anything. It was to comfort our member that her chioce was going to
be alright by her dog, to try to remove some of the weight she was feeling.
That being said the other comment about my pup not getting dinner or whatever I said ,was a joke, how anyone would percieve anything different is ridiculous.
You can look at any study you want there is NO clear evidence of THINKING in a human sense by anyone. Don't misinturpet, genetics for tasks, imaging and object permanence as thinking. The studies on Primates was intriguing because of the simularites to humans, now studies on dogs because of the relationships most recently (50 years) of the pet, as opposed to a dog working (not sport of any kind) an actual job. Our obsessions with our dogs to make them more human like borders on personnal needs not fullfilled in our lives. The dog is a BABY and were mommy and daddy, if you talked and felt like that not to long ago your family and friends would be very concerned. Stop humanizing dogs it's not good for them and more importantly not good for you. As for sight, dogs are color blind in comparison to us. Shades of grey, also light violet depending on light, also a soft yellow again depending on light, usually artificial. Now all these studies will go on because thats what grant money is all about, and some day maybe a person will happen upon a revalation that astounds us, but for now just train em up.
Von

**RedFawnRising** · 03-12-2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crow

...We make waaaay too many lazy assumptions about animals.

Yes! It's sloppy thinking on a human's part when we do that--and perpetuating old myths and assumptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipclop

I agree with a lot if not all that has already been said. I wanna try and serve devils advocate- not in the manner of stating that dogs dont think- but in defining what exactly constitutes "thinking".

I know the exact quote and who said it... "dogs dont think they react" and I'm not sure if there is history behind this poster or if we are taking him out of context. How many times has a person come on this board upset their dog peed on their favorite pair of shoes to spite them? Most of us knowing better come back stating that dogs dont "think" that way. Is it possible we attribute dogs "thinking" when that action (thought) is used for something positive (fetching the phone story... or tricking the dog to get the chewy) vs. something negative (my owner left me alone in this room and Im going to hop on the bed and pee on it to show im upset) I think Von's point was... is Lexx capable of thought needed to decide what medical treatment is best for him? no. Will he be reactive to the effects of whatever treatment is decided for him? yes.

I could be way off base...

but just "thinking" out loud... pardon the pun.

Many of us on this board have tried to caution folks from assuming dogs are capable of the SAME TYPE of thought as humans because ... well lets face it... we've all seen the effects of folks that anthromorphize our animals and 9 times out of 10 its not to the dog's benefit to do that.

The statement "do dogs think" can be answered yes or no depending on what you define as thought... thats my only point.

C'mon now, I wasn't around on that thread at the time, so no clue if it was in fact a catalyst for Dobes&Dragons starting this thread--but it was NOT just the one incident--it's a constant refrain from ol' Von, and worse--he spouts it to new, inexperienced folks, all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Cosack Dobermann

The reason behind my statement about reaction opposed to thinking, was for a member here in the most difficult decision time concerning her dog. She made a statment that her choices were weighing on her and she didn't want her dog THINKING poorly of her. So my statement wasn't whether dogs think or not, it wasn't to start a debate on it, it wasn't a question of how a dog does anything. It was to comfort our member that her chioce was going to
be alright by her dog, to try to remove some of the weight she was feeling.
That being said the other comment about my pup not getting dinner or whatever I said ,was a joke, how anyone would percieve anything different is ridiculous.
You can look at any study you want there is NO clear evidence of THINKING in a human sense by anyone. Don't misinturpet, genetics for tasks, imaging and object permanence as thinking. The studies on Primates was intriguing because of the simularites to humans, now studies on dogs because of the relationships most recently (50 years) of the pet, as opposed to a dog working (not sport of any kind) an actual job. Our obsessions with our dogs to make them more human like borders on personnal needs not fullfilled in our lives. The dog is a BABY and were mommy and daddy, if you talked and felt like that not to long ago your family and friends would be very concerned. Stop humanizing dogs it's not good for them and more importantly not good for you. As for sight, dogs are color blind in comparison to us. Shades of grey, also light violet depending on light, also a soft yellow again depending on light, usually artificial. Now all these studies will go on because thats what grant money is all about, and some day maybe a person will happen upon a revalation that astounds us, but for now just train em up.
Von

You know, that's great if you say you were trying to comfort a member in distress, and I would have to agree, in this one instance, that Lexx will not "think badly" of Leanne, whatever she chooses.

But, you've made this assertion, Dogs don't think, they react, from the onset, here on this forum, so many times that I think of it as your catch-phrase--well, at least a runner-up to the infamous "train em up."

Skinner was useful in his time, and got a lot of people thinking and debating, which usually is productive, but his in-->out, SR theory has been pretty much discredited, like, DECADES AGO.

I am disgusted by you characterizing folks who want to study and learn more about how animal brains work as "humanizing them" or "making them into babies." It's truly not necessary to put others down in order to try to validate your own position. You certainly have a right to it, in spite of anecdotal and scientific evidence to the contrary of that position, but no need to say folks who see more dimension to a dog's way of thinking are "babying" them.

America most certainly does have that faction of folks who act ridiculous with their dogs (and kids), but I don't really see that represented here, much, on this forum.

What I do see are folks who are flexing their own intellectual skills, attempting to understand the way animals learn and communicate--and HONORING the very demonstrable thought processes of the dog--which are in no way human, and also, imo, in no way inferior, just different.

**Amanda** · 03-12-2009, 12:07 PM

Von, it isn't always easy to tell whether or not you're joking.

I'm going to make a bit of an assumption and guess you don't spend a lot of time on forums, chat, IMs, etc. We utilize the smiley faces and terms like "lol" "jk" and "haha" so that people can understand when we're joking.

Don't forget that all we have here are letters and words... we can't hear your voice, see your body language, or determine your moods. Sometimes I find it hard to tell whether or not you're joking... just try to keep that in mind when you are just being funny!

caramella · 03-12-2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Cosack Dobermann

The reason behind my statement about reaction opposed to thinking, was for a member here in the most difficult decision time concerning her dog. She made a statment that her choices were weighing on her and she didn't want her dog THINKING poorly of her. So my statement wasn't whether dogs think or not, it wasn't to start a debate on it, it wasn't a question of how a dog does anything. It was to comfort our member that her chioce was going to
be alright by her dog, to try to remove some of the weight she was feeling.
That being said the other comment about my pup not getting dinner or whatever I said ,was a joke, how anyone would percieve anything different is ridiculous.
You can look at any study you want there is NO clear evidence of THINKING in a human sense by anyone. Don't misinturpet, genetics for tasks, imaging and object permanence as thinking. The studies on Primates was intriguing because of the simularites to humans, now studies on dogs because of the relationships most recently (50 years) of the pet, as opposed to a dog working (not sport of any kind) an actual job. Our obsessions with our dogs to make them more human like borders on personnal needs not fullfilled in our lives. The dog is a BABY and were mommy and daddy, if you talked and felt like that not to long ago your family and friends would be very concerned. Stop humanizing dogs it's not good for them and more importantly not good for you. As for sight, dogs are color blind in comparison to us. Shades of grey, also light violet depending on light, also a soft yellow again depending on light, usually artificial. Now all these studies will go on because thats what grant money is all about, and some day maybe a person will happen upon a revalation that astounds us, but for now just train em up.
Von

Bold emphasis, mine.

Actually, I could be wrong, but it seems to me that your quote "Dogs don't think, they react" has been stated many times by you.

Can you clarify the second bolded statement for me? I can't figure out what you are meaning to say. You know, I don't mention your grammar to offend you. It's just that I really want to understand what you are saying and sometimes the lack of commas really confuses the meaning to me.

RE: The third bolded portion of your statement. There was a time when racism, sexism and ageism was acceptable, but we evolve as study and research is done, and now it is not as widely accepted because we learn to do better. I am not defending anthropromorphizing our pets, but I am saying that just because something was done 50, 40, 30 years ago is not a legitimate reason to continue a practice.

Dobes&Hounds · 03-12-2009, 12:38 PM

I don't see anybody humanizing dogs. In fact, I appreciate my dogs because they are NOT human. If they were "babies" I would not want them. Nobody is saying that dogs perceive things the same way we do. What I am saying is that they *do* think, not everything is a pre-programmed reaction. If that were the case, dogs would not need mental stimulation to develop properly. As it stands now, puppies who are isolated and not handled or stimulated grow to be essentially retarded. If their brains were pre-programmed, this would not be the case.

Stone Hill Farm · 03-12-2009, 12:48 PM

Well, it appears some of us humanize our dogs, and others are delusional to suite themselves.

Of course our dogs have human characteristics. To me, humanizing dogs ascribes them with similar emotions and some of our simple thought processes. They feel pain, anger, happiness, sadness and share a multitude of emotions with us. Dogs also problem solve, which demonstrates a clear capability of thought. They don’t think in verbal terms, they aren't verbal. (At least not that we can understand!) But dogs do think. And in my book, I do humanize them.

Dictionary definition of Anthropomorphize: To ascribe human characteristics to.

This, frankly, has always puzzled me. What is it to be human anyway? We're one of the smartest beings on this earth, but we're not the only thinking beings. To believe so is the pinnacle of conceit. It seems that those who insist that dogs don't think, may be fixated on elevating their own importance in this world.

My definition of Anthropomorphize: A word that is used to keep dogs down and feeling depressed!

Dobes&Hounds · 03-12-2009, 01:03 PM

"bashing people whose ideas contrast from others or the norm, isn't fair." Vom said this in another post. I wonder if this only applies when a person is in agreement with Vom? You have done your share of putting people down who's ideas contrast from others or the norm. Maybe it is you that need to open your mind to something new?

von Cosack Dobermann · 03-12-2009, 01:03 PM

I'm not saying you shouldn't gather up all the information thats out there. And your welcome to believe what ever you want, as I do. I don't care if you feel that my methods are old or past there time. I am older than you, and my methods are proven every day by me, and all the thousands of people that came to me whether puppy training or extreme aggression promblems. I don't need anyones avalidation. I realize I'm a big part of the day for many people on this forum, you go looking for my threads to see if you have an opportunity to disagree and hopefully have an audiance to display your opinions, again I don't care, I'm guilty of getting arise out of some of you myself. So once again here we are agreeing to disagree. Have a great day, and don't forget to train em up..........thanx to my fan club for also chiming in, the always entertaining BOOB CREW

**RedFawnRising** · 03-12-2009, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dobes&Hounds

I don't see anybody humanizing dogs. In fact, I appreciate my dogs because they are NOT human. If they were "babies" I would not want them. Nobody is saying that dogs perceive things the same way we do. What I am saying is that they *do* think, not everything is a pre-programmed reaction. If that were the case, dogs would not need mental stimulation to develop properly. As it stands now, puppies who are isolated and not handled or stimulated grow to be essentially retarded. If their brains were pre-programmed, this would not be the case.

Bold emphasis mine.

Funny, D&H. I couldn't agree more.

I have a friend who insists her dogs are her "kids" and once got very insulted when I asked how her dogs were doing.

I proceeded to read her the riot act about it. How DARE she insult dogs by calling them human? Dogs are much more giving, much less Machiavellian (well, maybe with the exception of Paws' little Min girl), and overall, just, sorry, more honorable and honest in their motives, in my mind, than many humans I've met.

All of that is somewhat beside the point though, since we are debating whether in fact dogs "think." Egregiously simplistic to assume they do not.

Also, there've been some points raised about "intelligence" and what it is here.

Most humans think we are the smartest beings on Earth, right? (Read Douglas Adams)

What if that intelligence is situational?

When it comes to finding cadavers or lost, injured folks in a building collapse, who is smarter? When it comes to sensing an impending seizure in a person, who is smarter? When it comes to living off the land, who is smarter, and needs no real equipment, to do so?

I once read a book where some aboriginal Australian people assumed a lost man was crazy and delusional, because he was dying of thirst in the outback, and had obviously been starving for some time.

Food and water were ALL around him, they pointed out to him, when he protested their assumption. Why hadn't he just relieved his hunger and thirst? He must be delusional.

They were so much smarter than him they had to make him crazy--since they couldn't fathom why he didn't have the same skill set they did, for finding the means to survive in that harsh land.

The Europeans who came to America were so much smarter than the Native people that they were able to use their superiority to wrest the lands from them. Now, this self-sustaining little plot of a continent is, er, doing so well, huh?

What is smart? What is thinking?

Personally, I'm hoping for wisdom, over both of those, someday

**Kpablo** · 03-12-2009, 01:13 PM

I have to admit sometimes I anthropomorphize, but try to catch myself =/

clipclop · 03-12-2009, 01:13 PM

idk but this thread im sure has good intentions... but is going downhill fast. Its the internets... I have learned a lot from many of you on this forum including dobesandhounds and Von.

Lets not forget that sometimes its just as valuable to learn what we DONT want to do as much as what practices we DO want to follow.

Von sometimes is a little flip... I can tell... but I dont think he is a terribly bad guy that beats his dogs or anything (i hope not anyways... lol). I also dont think that any of our advice is going to change his methods so lets not get too worked up here. To each their own... where we dont agree we're all welcome to discuss it openly in this forum and that is a good thing.

Newbies reading advice from ANY of us needs to understand that this is the internet and they need to exercise their judgement before rushing off and taking any post as gospel no matter who its coming from.

clipclop · 03-12-2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpablo

I have to admit sometimes I anthropomorphize, but try to catch myself =/

oh meee too... but there are limits to just how much anthromorphization is healthy. It can detract from successfully communicating with your dog if taken to extremes.

When I hug Wyatt or chit chat with him like he's a little person... no harm done. If every time he cried in his kennel i let him into bed with me because he's "sad" - thats detremental to his emotional stability and could contribute to a case of separation anxiety in the future (just an example here).

What about the folks that NEVER correct their dog because they're afraid the dog wont like them? Again, a case of anthromorphization to the extreme. Thinking that your dog has the ability to purposefully spite you and undermine you is a stretch as well.

**dobermansrule** · 03-12-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipclop

newbies reading advice from any of us needs to understand that this is the internet and they need to exercise their judgement before rushing off and taking any post as gospel no matter who its coming from.

amen!!

**Kpablo** · 03-12-2009, 01:21 PM

"When I hug Wyatt or chit chat with him like he's a little person" Oh good I am not the only crazy...lol...haha.

You previous post, was very nicely said ClipClop!

**dobermansrule** · 03-12-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipclop

When I hug Wyatt or chit chat with him like he's a little person...

hee he.. I do this all the time. Even while walking. I get odd looks from some. Some 'dog' people understand. But I'll chat away with him at home - him on the couch next to me, just looking at me talk, head going side to side, ears moving around.. then sometimes I say something he really likes and I get a big lick in the face. I'm sure this is no value add to this thread - I jumped in late and this post resonated with me

**RedFawnRising** · 03-12-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipclop

idk but this thread im sure has good intentions... but is going downhill fast. Its the internets... I have learned a lot from many of you on this forum including dobesandhounds and Von.

Lets not forget that sometimes its just as valuable to learn what we DONT want to do as much as what practices we DO want to follow.

Von sometimes is a little flip... I can tell... but I dont think he is a terribly bad guy that beats his dogs or anything (i hope not anyways... lol). I also dont think that any of our advice is going to change his methods so lets not get too worked up here. To each their own... where we dont agree we're all welcome to discuss it openly in this forum and that is a good thing.

Newbies reading advice from ANY of us needs to understand that this is the internet and they need to exercise their judgement before rushing off and taking any post as gospel no matter who its coming from.

I'm interested in your thoughts on this--Clipclop--are we not adults here?

Can we not debate an assertion made by someone here, a very thought-provoking one--whether dogs think or not?

Why cannot we do that, without someone pulling the victim card and calling names?

There are good links here, good anecdotal evidence, and I'm sorry, to earn any respect or credibility from me, ya gotta do a bit better than chanting, you're mean and I'm older than you and then calling names.

Let's talk science, evidence, empirical observation, and leave the other stuff out of it.

clipclop · 03-12-2009, 01:30 PM

RFR- of course we're adults and discussion is GREAT! Its just rare that a specific thread is opened on the comment and quote of a poster from a different thread. There has been a LOT of great info posted here that I cant wait to go back and read later on tonight. I just think sometimes we read too much into 1 comment and run with it like we're on fire. We're not always going to agree with everyones training or breeding philosophy... so lets talk about it sure... but lets not let ourselves get any heart attacks over it

**RedFawnRising** · 03-12-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipclop

RFR- of course we're adults and discussion is GREAT! Its just rare that a specific thread is opened on the comment and quote of a poster from a different thread. There has been a LOT of great info posted here that I cant wait to go back and read later on tonight. I just think sometimes we read too much into 1 comment and run with it like we're on fire. We're not always going to agree with everyones training or breeding philosophy... so lets talk about it sure... but lets not let ourselves get any heart attacks over it

It's not ONE comment though, it's constant. It's a pattern, and it's disrespectful in the way it's stated.

And no one here is calling names except Von.

**Jenny** · 03-12-2009, 01:46 PM

Let keep it civil please. . . remember no name calling. It is in the rules.