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Old 08-01-2012, 06:13 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovealldogs View Post
Even though 1800 is a very large price for a mix breed, and no, there is no standard for a mutt, you all make me sick with your elitism! Your Doberman is a dog made from a bunch of other dogs and was at one point a MUTT. You need to be a little more respectful. People mix dogs with poodles because they have allergies and cannot tolerate a shedding dog. I never thought Doberman owners could be so ignorant. People aren’t out to get rid of your breed, just make dogs more suitable for other people. I am really disgusted by the amount of ignorance that has been had on this page. You are all very sad people to make yourselves feel better by putting other people and their practices down! I hope you find a way to be happier about yourselves so you don’t do this again. I happen to be the proud owner of a MUTT. A Shi Tzu Havanese (among other dogs) from a rescue. Are you going to call me stupid for not getting rid of my beautiful dog? Should I have just looked over him at the shelter? Shame on all of you who were rude.

Well hello to you too.


Learn about hybrid dogs. Are they great new breeds in development? or simply a con by dubious breeders to sell mutts to the gullible?

Groodles & Schnoodles & Roodles Oh My!.Read on before you buy.

I am sure we have all seen and heard the hype surrounding these new pooch sensations, adorable and cute super dogs that have taken the world by storm. Labradoodles, Cocker-poos, Malti-poos and more combine the best of both breeds whilst eliminating the bad. At least that is the theory.

Can't decide between a Chihuahua and a Dachshund?No problem get a Chiweiner.

The trend for customising canine companions to suitour lifestyle choiceshaselevated designer hybrid dogs into the position of most in demand pets and when we see the likes of our favourite celebrities owning a designer dog, you know its a trend that’s going to keep getting bigger.

There is a downside however, but first lets rewind a bit and ask some questions.

What On Earth Is a Hybrid Or Designer Dog In The First Place?

A true hybrid is a cross between two similar species, for example a horse and a donkey produce a mule. Because dogs are all the same species the term hybrid applies to the offspring of two different registered pure breeds, where the heritage of both parents is known. A Cocker Spaniel and a Poodle pairing therefore produce a Cocker-poo and a Pug with a Yorkshire Terrier produce a Porkie.

To all intents and purposes therefore a designer hybrid dog is nothing more than a cross breed, the term cross-breed is not to be confused with mixed breed which is a dog where only one pure breed parent or grandparent is known .

So How Has All This Come About?

The recent explosion in interest for designer hybrid dogs can be traced back to Australia and a chap called Wally Conron, the 'inventor' of the Labradoodle. He was working as the breeding Manager for the Royal Guide Dog Association of Australia back in the early 2000's when a request came about for a non shedding guide dog for a client whose husband was allergic to dog hair.

Wally Conron tried unsuccessfully to train over 30 poodles to be guide dogs before failing miserably, Poodles it would seem just do not have the temperament for it. With their client getting older Conron decided on a final throw of the dice and mate his Labrador bitch with a Standard Poodle.

The resulting cross-breed puppies were not well received in the wider dog support community, no one would take them for training or socialising as everyone wanted a pure breed.

It was beginning to look likethewhole worthy project and years of hard work was doomed to failure. At his loweset ebb Conron had a flash of inspiration, he conjured up the name 'Labradoodle' and declared to the world that he and his team had invented a new dog breed. The rest as they say, is history.

For Wally Conron's take on the whole subject click here for an interesting and thought provoking article that appeared in the Guardian Newspaper on Saturday 13th November 2010.

What Happened Next?

As so often happens, the story was taken up with gusto by an enthusiastic press and quickly developed into a global phenomena, when high profile 'A' Listers started to be seen with 'designer dog's everyone wanted one.

Since 2007 there has been an explosion of 'hybrid dogs', the term 'designer dog' comes about because people want to create dogs that fit into their own lifestyles, they want to take certain 'preferred traits from breeds and filter out the less desirable ones.

The Puggle is a classic exampleof thisidea. A Beagle & Pug is crossed with the aim of reducing the Pug's inherent breathing difficulties and at the same time lessen the beagle's determined single mindedness in following scent trails.

Poodles also are a popular breed to cross, not only are there three sizes; the miniature, toy and standard respectively which make for many possible combos, they are also considered to be hypo-allergenic (non allergic)and shed very littlehair.

Roodles (Rottweiler /Poodle),

Groodles (Greyhound/Poodle),

Schnoodles (Schnauzer/Poodles),

Golden-Doodles (Golden Retriever /Poodle) and

Malti-poo's (Maltese/poodle)

The list goes on! In fact there were at last count over 354 'registered ' designeror hybrid dogs available and the list is growing every day .

So

What Are The Problems?

Well the cynic in me would say that a designer hybrid dog is nothing more than a cross-breed being packaged up to sound more appealing or more exotic than it actually is, with the sole purpose of being sold at a premium.

There are a number of main concerns that you will need to consider very carefully if you are looking for one of these types of dog.

What You See Is Not Necessarily What You Get.

The main difference between a classic pure breed and a hybrid is that pure breeds were bred over generations for a specificpurpose such as hunting or herding and as a result will breed true. Mate two Boxers with each other and they will produce a litter of boxer puppies, all of whom will grow up into adult boxers with a set of similar physical and temperamental characteristics which can bequantified and registered in any one of the major national breed organisations.

For A Designer Hybrid Dog This Is Simply Not The Case.

In laymans terms a designer dog is created by breeding two pure-bred dogstogether,theresultant 'first generation ' of puppies will exhibita fair amountof randomly inherited characteristics from both parents. Thismeans in any litter you are likely to see a spread of pups which range from the best of characteristics to the worst.

That Puggle we mentioned earlier could just as easilyhave bad breathing problems and still retain an insatiable desire to follow a scent, the worst of both worlds indeed! .

Misleading Descriptions

The issue I haveis that little of this is mentioned when you visit the websites or look at the classified ads for a particular hybrid that you might be interested in.

This quote comes from a Labrashepherd website, the profile page says.......

'The Labrashepherd has the caution of a German Shepherd Dog but does not bounce off walls like a Lab.'

....Really?

What about one that bounces off the walls like a lab, has no caution and a very high guarding instinct, they could both be in the same litter, which one will you choose?.

Any prospective buyer needs to watch out also for a certain false legitimacy by breeders and organisations that promote respective designer dog “breeds".

There is a huge band wagon rolling and a lot of charlatans are operating in order to make a quick buck.

Dubious breeders and puppy mills are churning out puppies that are the result of ill considered cross breeding experiments. If they are the first breeder to 'invent' a particular combination they can register the name.

They then attach a cute sounding 'breed' title such as 'Pit-Huahua' to the offspring and promote them on any number of dog websites or with a number of hybrid registration organisations. This lends the whole process a veneer of legitimacy giving the false impression that designer dogs are somehow a new breed with proper accreditation.

Hybrid Dogs Are Not Registered Breeds

Anyone can buy a hybrid dog and registerit with an 'official club' as a genuine 'Scooby-Doodle' or whatever, but remember these registrations and certificates are not worth the paper they are written on as they have no validity with any of the national kennel associations.

I am not saying that cross-breeding cannot over time produce new breeds, but it is a hard, slow complicated process by dedicated individuals and clubs. The silky terrier for example was the result of a hybrid cross programme between the Australian Terrier and the Yorkshire Terrier and gained acceptance into the AKC in 1935.

What About The Australian Labradoodle?

As of the time of writing only the Australian Labradoodle (not to be confused with a Labradoodle) is approaching anything like recognition as an accepted breed. It is the result of an exhaustive Australian breeding programme designed to get it recognised with the majorkennel clubs and interestingly, the Australian variety involves strains from six different progenitor breeds rather than the two you get in a regular Labradoodle.

Practical Issues To Consider WhenChoosing A HybridDog

There are few reputable breeders out there and many many bad ones. When choosing a hybrid pup research the temperament and care for both breeds in the cross and be prepared for any combination of the two. If everything about both breeds matches you and your families personality and lifestyle, than you can most likely assume thiscrosswill work foryou.IfthereisANYTHING about either breed in the cross that you do not feel matches what you are looking for, avoid that cross.

Make sure at the least the parents are pure breeds and are fully certified and registered and that screening has been done for breed specific genetic defects,that there is certification from the Orthopedic Foundation For Animals (O.F.A) and also from the Canine Eye Registry (CERF). A reputable breeder should offer certain guarantees about returning the puppy due to ill heath and such like.

Click Here For Universal Advice On HowTo Find A ReputableBreeder .

Before you decide on a new designer dog, why not consider at least adopting a dog. There are millions of unwanted and uncared for cross-breeds and mixed breeds in shelters waiting for a new home and undoubtedly the craze for designer hybrid dogs means many thousands of them are being destroyed needlessly on a daily basis.

Why pay lots more for a hybrid than a pure breed when you can visit a shelter and choose a rescue.
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Last edited by o0 sHaDoWoLf 0o; 08-01-2012 at 06:41 PM..
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Old 08-01-2012, 06:37 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Obvious Troll is Obvious. Someone should start posting those funny troll pics.

I'm afraid this was a hit and run, folks.
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Old 08-01-2012, 06:47 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Couldnt help but look through some of these "hybrid" breeds, List of Hybrid Dogs, Designer Dog, Hybrid Dog, Designer Dogs - D but to be honest how stupid are people......
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Old 08-01-2012, 06:49 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Dobie-Basset Information and Pictures Doberman Pinscher*Basset Hound Hybrid Dogs
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Old 08-01-2012, 07:53 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Said it once and I will say it again...

Anyone who says breeding designer doodles is how other breeds were made is retarded and needs to go back to high school. Breeding F1 crosses again and again does NOT make a new breed. If you cannot understand this than I formally request that you hand over your internet pass and stop contaminating us with your stupidity.
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Old 08-01-2012, 09:41 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o0 sHaDoWoLf 0o View Post
Well hello to you too.


Learn about hybrid dogs. Are they great new breeds in development? or simply a con by dubious breeders to sell mutts to the gullible?

...What About The Australian Labradoodle?

As of the time of writing only the Australian Labradoodle (not to be confused with a Labradoodle) is approaching anything like recognition as an accepted breed. It is the result of an exhaustive Australian breeding programme designed to get it recognised with the majorkennel clubs and interestingly, the Australian variety involves strains from six different progenitor breeds rather than the two you get in a regular Labradoodle.

.....
Nope, even this is not not nearly approaching recognition ...not even close! Registering with a dubious register and creating a new name of "Cobbadog" is just one more attempt at smoke and mirrors rubbish.

Rescuing crossbreeds from a genuine shelter is worthy, appropriate and commendable.
paying a breeder for an equivalent "designer" mutt, just means you have SUCKER written over your forehead in NEON letters!...and you have just participated in the process of more mutts being produced and ending up in shelters and euthanised by financially rewarding the charlatans that are making exhorbitant, easy money from you SUCKER!

A new breed......of mutt.

Read the links posted on this thread as well...they make reading worthy of a drama script of one of the biggest swindles of the century! Puppy mill pups that go for up to $40,000 USD....did I mention SUCKERS?
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Old 08-01-2012, 09:54 PM   #32 (permalink)
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The "labradoodle" can never become a registered breed in Australia, ANKC regulations require new breeds to have new names, not ones made up from the names of other dogs.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:00 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Weimaraner cross Doberman Pinscher puppies - Ottawa Dogs & Puppies For Sale - Kijiji Ottawa Canada.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:27 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I think what sickens me the most about the aspen kennel is that they have SO many pictures of past Doberdoodle pups. Some of them are a few years old... That means they've been doing this a long time and apparently they have a decent market... It's a shame to see people like this doing such things and even worse that others fall for this...
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:58 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovealldogs View Post
Even though 1800 is a very large price for a mix breed, and no, there is no standard for a mutt, you all make me sick with your elitism! Your Doberman is a dog made from a bunch of other dogs and was at one point a MUTT. You need to be a little more respectful. People mix dogs with poodles because they have allergies and cannot tolerate a shedding dog. I never thought Doberman owners could be so ignorant. People arenít out to get rid of your breed, just make dogs more suitable for other people. I am really disgusted by the amount of ignorance that has been had on this page. You are all very sad people to make yourselves feel better by putting other people and their practices down! I hope you find a way to be happier about yourselves so you donít do this again. I happen to be the proud owner of a MUTT. A Shi Tzu Havanese (among other dogs) from a rescue. Are you going to call me stupid for not getting rid of my beautiful dog? Should I have just looked over him at the shelter? Shame on all of you who were rude.

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Old 08-01-2012, 11:49 PM   #36 (permalink)
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My sister in law got one of these not from this ad but a weimerdoodle and it was loke a fuzzy lab .. but some of the pics I saw on line after she got her puppy were ugly as sin. Same with doberdoodles, they are ugly! They seem to look more like square headed mutts than a poodle or doberman, same with weimerdoodles. And Ciara had the energy level of the Energizer bunny! They ended up getting rid of her because she didnt have time to train her .. which made me want to kick her in the seat of her pants but thats another story.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:56 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:14 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Against my better judgment I'm going to post on this this thread because it hit close to home and I'm in disbelief at the sheer inaccuracy of the posts. Particularly this post:

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Anyone who says breeding designer doodles is how other breeds were made is retarded and needs to go back to high school. Breeding F1 crosses again and again does NOT make a new breed. If you cannot understand this than I formally request that you hand over your internet pass and stop contaminating us with your stupidity.
To "the_discowhore" who wrote that quote (and whose username should really say it all): you probably should have graduated from high school before you received your internet pass (whatever that is) and contaminated this thread with your stupidity. Breeds are designated by kennel clubs and F1 crosses could potentially be considered a new breed if the kennel clubs so chose. Further, purebred dogs WERE created by crossing other dogs. Specifically, dobermans are "believed to have been created from several different breeds of dogs that had the characteristics that "Dobermann" [an old German guy] was looking for, including the German Pinscher, the Beauceron, the Rottweiler, the Thuringian Sylvan Dog, the Greyhound, the Great Dane, the Weimaraner, the German Shorthaired Pointer, the Manchester Terrier the Old German Shepherd Dog, the American Pit Bull terrier". Therefore, "the_discowhore" is entirely inaccurate.


My next quote hits closer to home:

[quote]Weim x Dobe

Weimaraner cross Doberman Pinscher puppies - Ottawa Dogs & Puppies For Sale - Kijiji Ottawa Canada.[quote]

I purchased one of these puppies. It is the best dog I've ever owned. The breeder cared for the dogs and ensured they went to good owners. The breeder bred the two dogs because they both were good tempered and well mannered which I think is commendable.

I would never purchase a purebred dog because (1) the breeding technology is literally centuries old (2) purebreds are bred for character traits that are almost completely unnecessary in a family pet (3) purebreds are more prone to disease due to the breeding methods used (4) on principle, because even though some lines and/or breeds may be okay, kennel clubs literally turn a blind eye to overbreeding or problems in a line and/or breed and will not even consider alternative breeding methods that would potentially save specific breeds (5) because I consider the continuation of breeding certain breeds to be animal abuse and I think its disgusting that the kennel club still allows the showing of these dogs.

In terms of the arguments contained in the comments on this page in general, I think they are weak, and for the most part laughable. The strongest argument is that of backyard breeders selling their dogs purely for profit to eventual bad dog owners who give their dogs up to shelters (or worse). While this does occur, it has nothing to do with whether the dog is purebred or a mutt. It has to do with the breeder and the people who purchase the dog from the breeder. If you go on pet finder right now you will find a similar number of purebred and mixed dogs. Typically the dogs that you will find on there are either high energy dogs (ie: large dogs that were bred for (1) hunting or (2) herding) or dogs of a more popular breed (ie: labradors - which basically means there are just more of them out there so the chances of those breeds being put in a shelter is higher) or dogs that are notorious for being sold to poor owners (ie: pit bulls). Therefore, the cause and effect relationship isn't with the breed (ie: purebred dogs don't go to shelters) its with the owners (ie: owners who are notoriously bad dogs owners or who get dogs with higher energy levels than they are willing to tolerate).

An easy answer for this would (1) to stop selling families dogs with character traits that are not compatible with a family pet - which breeders of purebred dogs do all the time OR (2) have some form regulator for all dog breeders (mixed and pure breeds) so that they can't sell dogs to poor owners.

The most effective would be to have a regulator of both purebred and mixed breed dogs. But kennel clubs won't fill this role of regulator for mixed breeds. Why? Because they are run by people with backwards attitudes and beliefs like the majority of people that are posting on this website. People that refuse to give up century old ideas that are almost completely obsolete in terms of today's pet market. Lets face it - the majority of doberman owners on this website are not using their dog for the purpose for which it was bred. Its just a plain old fact. The majority of them are family pets and its ridiculous to think that because they are purebred dobermans they are any better at being a family pet than a mixed breed. In fact the opposite is true. A mixed breed would likely be better because they aren't bred for specific purposes that their owners can't fulfill.

So, ultimately, who are the bad guys in this? The people with the backwards ideas that a purebred dog is somehow more deserving of having a regulator than a mixed breed dog, that a purebred dog is somehow a better family pet than a mixed breed dog, that a purebred dog will somehow not end up in a shelter because their owners can't handle it, and that a purebred dog is generally bred better than a mixed breed. Its just, in fact, not true.
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:32 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Oh, good grief. Maybe someone dropped a stupid bomb (as opposed to a smart bomb) somewhere and all the victims of it decided to come on DT? Or are they all one and the same person?
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:10 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:39 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Fortheloveofahealthydog,

Do you even know what a F1 cross is? An F1 cross is the result of Breed 1 bred to Breed 2. These puppies are called F1 crosses. If you take the puppy and breed it to another puppy of similar origins you have an F2 cross. And so on and so forth down succeeding generations. A breed is created when the F(x) crosses are reproducing offspring similar to themselves. This may take until the F15-20 generations.

I find it hard to swallow that breeding technology is "centuries old" since x-rays, DNA testing and open registries for breeding dogs all started in the last 50 years or so, more recent for the DNA testing.

If you are talking about using conformation shows to select breeding stock, well, they aren't the only criteria of a good and ethical breeder.

Dogs being bred for temperament traits that aren't needed in pets? I'm not sure how solid nerves are not needed in a pet regardless of breed. Maybe if the dog never leaves home and lives outside of an urban/suburban setting where it doesn't see strangers and other new stimuli, but most dog's don't get to live on farms, sheltered from the world.

Additionally, what one person thinks is necessary for the temperament of their pet may not be what another person wants. Some people want a dog that loves everyone, enjoys being used as a jungle gym by kids and is content to lay around until the family has time for it. That kind of dog would drive others crazy, like me. Those people should get dogs that are known for being good family dogs, like Retrievers, Spaniels, Collies. Others, like me, want a dog that is tuned into its owner only and the rest of the world can jump off a cliff, we want our dogs that don't let strangers into the house and warn about suspicious people in the yard, we want a dog that demands our attention and energy. Anything less might as well be a cat. Some people may even want a pet that can double as a form of personal protection (from aggressive barking to engaging a threatening person) because they live in countries where law abiding citizens are not allowed any other means. This is why there are different breeds, over 400 of them to choose from without a need to create more.

Quote:
An easy answer for this would (1) to stop selling families dogs with character traits that are not compatible with a family pet - which breeders of purebred dogs do all the time OR (2) have some form regulator for all dog breeders (mixed and pure breeds) so that they can't sell dogs to poor owners.
Your first point is already being done to by ethical breeders to the best of their ability (people do lie and can be very convincing con-men). Please, also, don't assume that just because someone shows in conformation, has a glitzy website and can give all the right answers over the phone to be an ethical breeder. There is sooo much more to it than that. For one, if someone can't keep their puppy (for whatever reason, like the new owner wasn't completely honest with the breeder or didn't follow through what what they said they would do) a good, ethical breeder will take that puppy back AT ANY TIME IN THAT DOGS LIFE! Then there is the temperament testing (through working sports appropriate to the breed such as Schutzhund, hunting, earthdog trials, herding trials), the health testing (most breeds are afflicted with hip dysplasia and by testing and providing genetic samples we will hopefully be able to find the genetic markers for it soon), the everyday care of their dogs, early development/environment stimulation/exposure of any litters, helping puppy buyers past and future with any questions or problems.

Once a BYB/mill puppy leaves the "breeder" doesn't care what happens to it. If the new owner calls them to return the puppy, if the breeder even responds they are likely thinking how much they can make off the dog either by reselling it or breeding it. Whichever it is, they are not thinking about what is best for that puppy, just what is best for their wallet.

You second point, well. Did you know the commercial dog breeding industry in the US is regulated? By the USDA no less. They haven't help all that much. Dogs still live in small wire/concrete cages and the USDA only regulates what class of dealer the mill can sell to or what class the mill can buy from. These dogs don't need to be health tested for genetic issues.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:00 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:06 AM   #43 (permalink)
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yes all breeds come from somewhere, usually by mixing different breeds, but it is a long drawn out process to make sure there is a standard among the new breed (so they all look the same predictably!) also as stated earlier a breed can't be recognized when it's name consists of the names of the breeds that it was created from. Plus mixes may not be bred from a specific purpose but they do still have the instincts of their parents...
on a side note. Where does the D come from?!?! I mean it kind of works with doddleman if you take the D and man from doberman and the oodle from poodle. But with a Goldendoodle? there is no D originally for there to be a D! it only works if they take out the EN. That is why all Doodles are actually Oodles (and there are oodles...lol) except the labradoole where there is actually a connecting D. That bother anyone else or am I just weird?
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:13 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Are you thinking about breeding mutts then?

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all breeds come from somewhere, usually by mixing different breeds
Just asking because of your wanna be a breeder thread.....
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:20 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fortheloveofahealthydog View Post
The people with the backwards ideas that a purebred dog is somehow more deserving of having a regulator than a mixed breed dog, that a purebred dog is somehow a better family pet than a mixed breed dog, that a purebred dog will somehow not end up in a shelter because their owners can't handle it, and that a purebred dog is generally bred better than a mixed breed. Its just, in fact, not true.

My apologies, I was trying to quote this, not thank it... please research before you post something like this.. To the part I bolded...

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Old 12-08-2012, 12:46 AM   #46 (permalink)
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on a side note. Where does the D come from?!?! I mean it kind of works with doddleman if you take the D and man from doberman and the oodle from poodle. But with a Goldendoodle? there is no D originally for there to be a D! it only works if they take out the EN. That is why all Doodles are actually Oodles (and there are oodles...lol) except the labradoole where there is actually a connecting D. That bother anyone else or am I just weird?
It comes from the original -oodle. The Labradoodle. Labrad - from the Labrador and -oodle from the Poodle.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:13 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Old thread, but worthy of resurection in that, those who deliberately breed mutts should be made to work in shelters/pounds for a year and see for themselves what misery thousands upon thousands of dogs endure thanks to people who just want to make a fast buck.
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:39 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Are you thinking about breeding mutts then?



Just asking because of your wanna be a breeder thread.....
No, at least not with the purpose of creating a designer dog. If ever I did it would be because there was a purpose that needed to be filled and a new breed was created which takes a long time and hard work. It probably will never happen since there are so little dog jobs left which makes it silly to create a breed for a job that doesn't exist in our society. If I ever breed it would be one breed and to better that breed.


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Old 12-08-2012, 08:37 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayl View Post
yes all breeds come from somewhere, usually by mixing different breeds, but it is a long drawn out process to make sure there is a standard among the new breed (so they all look the same predictably!) also as stated earlier a breed can't be recognized when it's name consists of the names of the breeds that it was created from. Plus mixes may not be bred from a specific purpose but they do still have the instincts of their parents...
on a side note. Where does the D come from?!?! I mean it kind of works with doddleman if you take the D and man from doberman and the oodle from poodle. But with a Goldendoodle? there is no D originally for there to be a D! it only works if they take out the EN. That is why all Doodles are actually Oodles (and there are oodles...lol) except the labradoole where there is actually a connecting D. That bother anyone else or am I just weird?
With "doodles", "poos", and all the other designer mutts, the name they are called is the least of the problem.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:49 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Very true :p


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