Average age of first heat? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

Doberman Related Chat If your post does not fit into any other category post here.

DobermanTalk.com is the premier Doberman Dog Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-28-2006, 10:42 AM   #1 (permalink)
Big Dog
 
Posts: 89

Gallery Pics: 7
Visit morrmar's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Images: 7
morrmar is on a distinguished road
Average age of first heat?

My son is coming to visit and his new puppy has began her first heat. She is a rescue type mixed breed puppy and he had no idea how old she was. He usually stays with my daughter when he visits and she has a neutered Rottie. Everyone agrees he can't stay there. I live in an extremely rural area where everyone has outside dogs so he obviously can't stay with me either. To make a long story somewhat shorter, we are all advising him to leave the dog with his roommate.

But this got me to thinking. My wife and I are going to the beach in September and one thing we want to avoid at all costs is having Karma come into heat during our vacation. Even though we have read it is best to avoid spaying until after the first heat, that is something we just are not willing to do.

So my question is, at what age do Dobes usually have their first heat?
morrmar is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2006
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-28-2006, 11:27 AM   #2 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Blackdog's Avatar
 
Posts: 273
Dogs Name: Cyrus & Echo (at the bridge)
Titles: BISS Ch., RN, CGC, WAC
Dogs Age: 5 & 8.5
Gallery Pics: 7
Visit Blackdog's Gallery
Thanks: 14
Thanked 31 Times in 19 Posts
Images: 7
Blackdog is a jewel in the roughBlackdog is a jewel in the roughBlackdog is a jewel in the rough
I've always had my girls spayed @ 6 months, so I'll let someone who keeps intact bitches answer as to when. I'd guess about 7-9 months. I've never had an leaking problem with any of my girls, except the one I pulled out of the pound when she was 5 - I have no idea when her spay was.

I know of rescues who routinely spay/nueter at 8-12 weeks of age and they seem to have no ill effects, but you will see a lot of people argue both sides of the "when to alter" fence.

As with anything else, though, your mileage may vary.

Last edited by Blackdog; 07-29-2006 at 04:10 PM..
Blackdog is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jul 2005
Old 07-28-2006, 11:38 AM   #3 (permalink)
Sea Hag
 
Murreydobe's Avatar
 
Posts: 12,933

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Murreydobe's Gallery
Thanks: 3,083
Thanked 34,652 Times in 7,940 Posts
Murreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdog
I've always had my girls spayed @ 6 months, so I'll let someone who keeps intact bitches answer as to when. I'd guess about 7-9 months. I've never had an leaking problem with any of my girls, except the one I pulled out of the pound when she was 5 - I have no idea when her spay was.

I know of rescues who routinely spay/nueter at 8-12 weeks of age and they seem to have no ill effects, but you will see a lot of people argue both sides of the "when to alter" fence.

As with anything else, though, your mileage my vary.
I think the 7-9 month range is a pretty good guesstimate, but every bitch is different. I'm thinking most of the dobe bitches I've left intact came into season the first time at about 8 months. Razzle was almost 10 months.

And yes, there are arguments for both sides of the when to spay issue. I'd tend to spay prior to the first heat due to the greatly decreased risk of mammary cancer.
Murreydobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Sep 2005
Old 07-28-2006, 12:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
Still Here Despite Rumour
 
brumwolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,376
Location: England
Dogs Name: Amber,Chelsie and Tia & Mischa
Titles: Tia Cruft's qualified 2006 and CGC,Mischa CGC
Dogs Age: 10yrs 8Yrs 6 yrs and 4 yrs
Gallery Pics: 266
Visit brumwolf's Gallery
Thanks: 679
Thanked 1,279 Times in 602 Posts
Images: 266
brumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond repute
My lot all tended to be around 8 months except for Mischa who is only 4 months anyhow.
__________________

My favourite quote "If it's not a Doberman,It's just a dog" Anon
brumwolf is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Nov 2005
Old 07-28-2006, 01:32 PM   #5 (permalink)
Big Dog
 
Posts: 89

Gallery Pics: 7
Visit morrmar's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Images: 7
morrmar is on a distinguished road
Thanks for the feedback. Dogma, a Dach/Jack Russell mix, adopted us when she showed up under the deck so we had no idea how old she was. She went into heat before we had a chance to spay her. That was an experience I certainly don't want to repeat.

We had Niki spayed at 6 months so she never came into heat. I read somewhere that bigger dogs came into heat later than smaller ones but I couldn't remember the time frame.

As far as when to spay, I thought that was a controversial subject. Our vet is against doing it before 6 months and I've read that dogs who are spayed before their first season have a greater propensity to "leak" urine as they get older. That was the case with Niki but an estrogen pill once a week took care of that.

Karma will only be 5 months come vacation time so I think we'll be ok. Again, thanks for the responses.
morrmar is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2006
Old 07-28-2006, 01:48 PM   #6 (permalink)
Alpha
 
elly's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,927
Location: The Netherlands
Dogs Name: Briska's Zabar r.i.p., Xasper vom Eschenbruch, Briska's Fumi, Briska's Hutch
Titles: Zabar BH IPOIII & GHPIII, Xasper BH, IPOIII & GHPIII, ZTP, Fumi MH, BH, Hutch still wearing Diapers!

Gallery Pics: 5
Visit elly's Gallery
Thanks: 2,450
Thanked 2,177 Times in 1,001 Posts
Images: 5
elly has a reputation beyond reputeelly has a reputation beyond reputeelly has a reputation beyond reputeelly has a reputation beyond reputeelly has a reputation beyond reputeelly has a reputation beyond reputeelly has a reputation beyond reputeelly has a reputation beyond reputeelly has a reputation beyond reputeelly has a reputation beyond reputeelly has a reputation beyond repute
Click here to find out how elly became a supporter
Lindsey was 13 months the first time, we spayed her when she was 3 years, because every time afterwards she has the illusion she was pregnant, and was really sick about it, she is 10 years now and since 2 years she is having "leak her urine" she gets medicines for it.
elly is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2006
Old 07-28-2006, 03:56 PM   #7 (permalink)
just a member
 
Kratty's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,996
Location: DC Area
Dogs Name: Alexis & Zoe
Dogs Age: 6 years & 5 months
Gallery Pics: 49
Visit Kratty's Gallery
Thanks: 455
Thanked 2,439 Times in 593 Posts
Images: 49
Kratty has a reputation beyond reputeKratty has a reputation beyond reputeKratty has a reputation beyond reputeKratty has a reputation beyond reputeKratty has a reputation beyond reputeKratty has a reputation beyond reputeKratty has a reputation beyond reputeKratty has a reputation beyond reputeKratty has a reputation beyond reputeKratty has a reputation beyond reputeKratty has a reputation beyond repute
This brings up a question I always wondered. Since spaying a female before she goes into her first heat cycle, How much does this influence her growth factor. I would figure that their are necessary hormonal changes that occur during the first heat cycle which would be related to growing proportionally. If this is true, would they not fill out correctly and may look leggy, or something like that, if these hormonal changes do not occur. Or would it just take longer for them to fill out.
__________________


"Never sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin

Dobiegirls Videos
Kratty is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jul 2005
Old 07-28-2006, 04:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Zucker's Avatar
 
Posts: 880
Location: Toronto
Dogs Name: Haus CGN HIC BH, Ripp, Athos, Stud PDC IPO3

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Zucker's Gallery
Thanks: 163
Thanked 1,309 Times in 420 Posts
Zucker has a reputation beyond reputeZucker has a reputation beyond reputeZucker has a reputation beyond reputeZucker has a reputation beyond reputeZucker has a reputation beyond reputeZucker has a reputation beyond reputeZucker has a reputation beyond reputeZucker has a reputation beyond reputeZucker has a reputation beyond reputeZucker has a reputation beyond reputeZucker has a reputation beyond repute
I wouldn't spay/neuter prior to 6mo. I know some shelters will alter their dogs at an extremely young age, but that sais nothing about this being good for the dogs. In most of these cases it's simple logistics. The shelter does not want the dogs to procriate and does not want to have to trust the new owners to spay/neuter their pup and the appropriate age. This simply ensures that the dogs leaving the shelter are fixed.

Majority of vets recommend to spay/neture at about the 6mo mark, and for the average pet owner I think that's the best option.

Recently I've been reading some articles about this issue (I should have bookmearked them and I didn't!). The hormones present in a young dog's body are responsible for shaping the dog's physiology. Without these hormones present (ie. post altering) the body will grow differently, and the articles suggested that not for the better. I think this would be most evident in males who's hormones help them pack on a lot more meat. A number of breeders I spoke with say there is a very noticable difference in how a neutered and un-neutered dogs will develop both physically and mentally. The dogs that were neutered at an early age act and look more puppy like when compared to unaltered males of the same age.

More specifically according to the articles, the ill effect of robbing the dogs of their hormones too early are the affects of this on their muscle and bone structure development. I can't remember the specifics, but the neutred dogs developed a more thinner and stretched out physique. That in turn lead to some what under-developed bones which became more prone to damage. Dogs fixed at an earlier age had a higher occurance of things like hip dysplasia and other joint disorders. The study did mention that this effect was much more prominent in larger breeds.

Now this doesn't mean that all dogs spayed at 6mo will be horribly crippled by old age, it simply stated that altering the dog before it was done growing was a contributing factor. The article didn't make any detailed description of the group of dogs being used in the study (such as hereditary predisposition to such degenerative diseases, if the dogs were over exercised while young, etc).
Zucker is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2006
Old 07-28-2006, 06:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Lexus's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,591
Dogs Name: Gina and Remi, Harley and Scrappy, Angel Ramsey & Angel Lexus

Gallery Pics: 71
Visit Lexus's Gallery
Thanks: 3,862
Thanked 3,113 Times in 1,178 Posts
Images: 71
Lexus has a reputation beyond reputeLexus has a reputation beyond reputeLexus has a reputation beyond reputeLexus has a reputation beyond reputeLexus has a reputation beyond reputeLexus has a reputation beyond reputeLexus has a reputation beyond reputeLexus has a reputation beyond reputeLexus has a reputation beyond reputeLexus has a reputation beyond reputeLexus has a reputation beyond repute
Big dogs tend to hit maturity a little sooner then small dogs, they seem to mature quicker the bigger they are (not the gospel spoken Word mind you) With my time as a tech, I have seen larger dogs start their first heat right at the 6 month mark or even a little before. Lexus was right about between 6-7 months for her first.
Lexus is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jul 2005
Old 07-28-2006, 08:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
Alpha
 
frznbuns's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,673
Location: Missouri
Dogs Name: Raven, Spirit, Gypsy,
Titles: Spirit CGC Raven CGC
Dogs Age: Raven 7 1/2 in Heaven, Spirit 11, Gypsy 9+ in Heaven
Gallery Pics: 36
Visit frznbuns's Gallery
Thanks: 36
Thanked 176 Times in 41 Posts
Images: 36
frznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud of
Raven was 1 year before she went into heat. We had her spay at almost 2 and she also has had a problem with leaking urine every since and also takes med..
frznbuns is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jul 2005
Old 07-29-2006, 01:21 PM   #11 (permalink)
Still Here Despite Rumour
 
brumwolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,376
Location: England
Dogs Name: Amber,Chelsie and Tia & Mischa
Titles: Tia Cruft's qualified 2006 and CGC,Mischa CGC
Dogs Age: 10yrs 8Yrs 6 yrs and 4 yrs
Gallery Pics: 266
Visit brumwolf's Gallery
Thanks: 679
Thanked 1,279 Times in 602 Posts
Images: 266
brumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond reputebrumwolf has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by elly
Lindsey was 13 months the first time, we spayed her when she was 3 years, because every time afterwards she has the illusion she was pregnant, and was really sick about it, she is 10 years now and since 2 years she is having "leak her urine" she gets medicines for it.
We had this problem with my beloved Juno who under vets advice we had "fixed" before her first heat and had to take meds for the last 4 years of her life and she was always self-conscious about it.
__________________

My favourite quote "If it's not a Doberman,It's just a dog" Anon
brumwolf is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Nov 2005
Old 07-29-2006, 07:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
Alpha
 
waiting's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,559
Location: Ontario

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit waiting's Gallery
Thanks: 2,319
Thanked 1,148 Times in 670 Posts
waiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond repute
What is the medical reason that some bitches leak urine or have less waiting control. Is this 10% that have this problem 20% 50% what is the statistics on this one. The earlier one gets spade or is it worse or for the older bitches closer to two. Do women that have hysterectomy's have the same problem, seriously not being rude just curious since the procedure is basically the same.
Does anyone have any info on this not just from the vets who want the dog or bitch spade as soon as possible only for the fact, the earlier the better to eliminate unwanted pregnancies and being a responsible pet owner.
Instead of us responsible pet owners who's bitch will not get pregnant or let their male get a bitch pregnant, and to allow some time for the bitch/dog to mature mentally and physically. I realize this is a personal opinion I myself prefer the dog/bitch to mature to 1 1/2 to two years. As I said not just physically mentally as well.

Last edited by waiting; 07-29-2006 at 07:58 PM..
waiting is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Sep 2005
Old 07-29-2006, 08:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
Big Dog
 
Posts: 89

Gallery Pics: 7
Visit morrmar's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Images: 7
morrmar is on a distinguished road
"What is the medical reason that some bitches leak urine or have less waiting control. Is this 10% that have this problem 20% 50% what is the statistics on this one."

I can't remember where I read it but it has something to do with estrogen not being available, so the correct development of the muscles that control bladder function are impeded. Not sure of the stats percentage wise but I seem to remember a higher incidence of incontinece the earlier a dog is spayed.
morrmar is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2006
Old 07-29-2006, 08:49 PM   #14 (permalink)
Sea Hag
 
Murreydobe's Avatar
 
Posts: 12,933

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Murreydobe's Gallery
Thanks: 3,083
Thanked 34,652 Times in 7,940 Posts
Murreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond reputeMurreydobe has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by waiting
What is the medical reason that some bitches leak urine or have less waiting control. Is this 10% that have this problem 20% 50% what is the statistics on this one. The earlier one gets spade or is it worse or for the older bitches closer to two. Do women that have hysterectomy's have the same problem, seriously not being rude just curious since the procedure is basically the same.
Does anyone have any info on this not just from the vets who want the dog or bitch spade as soon as possible only for the fact, the earlier the better to eliminate unwanted pregnancies and being a responsible pet owner.
Instead of us responsible pet owners who's bitch will not get pregnant or let their male get a bitch pregnant, and to allow some time for the bitch/dog to mature mentally and physically. I realize this is a personal opinion I myself prefer the dog/bitch to mature to 1 1/2 to two years. As I said not just physically mentally as well.
As I remember, it's believed the loss of sex hormones causes affects the strength of the urinary sphincter muscle. Estimates are around 10-20% of spayed bitches will develop urinary incontinence.

I can't remember ever seeing any data that would lead me to believe the age a bitch is spayed puts them more or less at risk for this problem. My own personal experience leads me to believe there is no correlation...I've spent my life around spayed bitches, most of them spayed prior to their first season. Only one of my spayed bitches has ever had spayed bitch incontinence-and she was a rescue who was spayed after maturity-probably at around 3-4 years of age.

I couldn't say whether incontinence can be an issue in women who have had hysterectomies..but weakness of that sphincter muscle is certainly part of the aging process for many women.

Having done my share of research into the issue, I think the benefits of spaying prior to the first season greatly outweigh the drawbacks. Urinary incontinence is something that's easily treated, and not life threatening in any sense of the word-the same can't be said for mammary cancer.

I'm not saying you're NOT a responsible owner who could handle the responsibility of keeping a bitch intact until 12-18 months. But realistically-MOST people *think* they're responsible and can handle it...until they can't.
I'd always have mandatory spay/neuter requirements before six months for any litters I had in the future, and would even seriously consider spay/neuter prior to placement.
Murreydobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Sep 2005
Old 07-29-2006, 09:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Posts: 986
Dogs Name: Oscar

Gallery Pics: 1
Visit Sooz's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Images: 1
Sooz is a jewel in the roughSooz is a jewel in the roughSooz is a jewel in the rough
Waiting, nerves supporting the muscles used to hold urine in are damaged during surgery (either from the surgery itself or from resultant infection).
Sooz is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Feb 2006
Old 07-30-2006, 06:46 AM   #16 (permalink)
Alpha
 
waiting's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,559
Location: Ontario

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit waiting's Gallery
Thanks: 2,319
Thanked 1,148 Times in 670 Posts
waiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks for the info. Interesting.
waiting is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Sep 2005
Old 07-30-2006, 09:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
Alpha
 
frznbuns's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,673
Location: Missouri
Dogs Name: Raven, Spirit, Gypsy,
Titles: Spirit CGC Raven CGC
Dogs Age: Raven 7 1/2 in Heaven, Spirit 11, Gypsy 9+ in Heaven
Gallery Pics: 36
Visit frznbuns's Gallery
Thanks: 36
Thanked 176 Times in 41 Posts
Images: 36
frznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud offrznbuns has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sooz
Waiting, nerves supporting the muscles used to hold urine in are damaged during surgery (either from the surgery itself or from resultant infection).
This is something that I have read also that during surgery the nerves are damaged which leads to the incontinence.. as being a "SPAY" woman myself. at the age of 38 when it was done.. I also started suffering from the same thing and have to take MEDS for it..I joke with the Vet when I go to refill Raven's med that I just as well take hers because it is cheaper that mine..LOL
frznbuns is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jul 2005
Old 07-31-2006, 06:58 AM   #18 (permalink)
Alpha
 
waiting's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,559
Location: Ontario

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit waiting's Gallery
Thanks: 2,319
Thanked 1,148 Times in 670 Posts
waiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond reputewaiting has a reputation beyond repute
Frznbuns that is hillarious about the meds, thanks for sharing that one.
So it seems for bitches if you leave things intact and it's past the age of two and they don't have puppies uterine cancer increases If fixed then there is nerve damage and that might lead to urine leaking.
So my friend is right being a female is hard sometimes. Yes cancer is worse but yet it is not fair that there are side effects one might say after surgery is completed.

Last edited by waiting; 07-31-2006 at 07:00 AM..
waiting is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Sep 2005
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:14 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0 Beta 2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2 ©2009, Crawlability, Inc.
@2005 - 2008 DobermanTalk.com
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com