cropped and docked. Shallow or not?

dusuwho · 06-11-2008, 02:15 PM

As the original working dobe is pretty much no longer. Is it necessary to send them to surgery, or is it our desire to change them so they look the way we want them to?

Just asking and not meaning to offend anybody but is this persuit of the perfect dobe at the expense of their comfort slightly shallow?

Regards,

P.S Im not suggesting anybody is more shallow than myself. Also I'm not name calling, as suggested by somebody here. It's an interesting topic.

GunnersMum · 06-11-2008, 02:47 PM

Examples of why I prefer the cropped ear:
1. There was a study done on dobes with cropped vs. those left natural. The test took place on an open field to find out what reaction each would give to sounds coming from a distance (in a bush - rustling) The dobes with cropped ears weren't just faster at hearing the sound, they also looked directly AT the sound where as the dobes left natural took longer and only looked in the general direction of the sound.

2. It has been documented that natural ears if shaken hard enough or if they hit an object hard enough can cause blood vessels in the ear to break.

3. Natural ears develop infections more often and goup builds up faster in them than on a cropped dog.

Why I prefer a docked tail: It has been proven that if a thin skinned/short haired dog knocks it's tail against a hard object it could not only break the skin but actually break the tail itself - perhaps even having to have it amputated if they do it repeatedly - my friends pit had his removed for exactly that reason. The next few may be vain or not but there is no chance of catching it in a door and no chance of losing everything on the coffee table when he walks by.

All the above are things I found out about prior to getting my dobe and what motivated me into having his ears done.

As to the making them conform to our visual ideal... While it may seem that way, I myself made a decision based on the information available to me and did not look at it as being selfish but in my dogs best interests as he ages.

**dobermansrule** · 06-11-2008, 02:49 PM

"is it our desire to change them so they look the way we want them to?"
Yes

"this persuit of the perfect dobe at the expense of their comfort slightly shallow?" I disagree that it is at the expense of their comfort. That said, were cropping and docking banned completely, would I still love dobies? Yes.

WorkingInSTL · 06-11-2008, 02:52 PM

With regard to the ears, I have to reluctantly admit that the procedure is purely cosmetic and not really necessary. That being said, I have been through ear crops several times, and my personal observations have been that it is simply not that big an ordeal. It is a relatively simple procedure and almost never leads to any problems with the proper aftercare. Any puppy I have ever had cropped showed at the most, extremely mild discomfort, and by the second day out, never showed any signs they were even aware the surgery had been done. As far as health, I'm not certain I am ready to believe that cropped OR natural has much effect on things like ear infections either way. There are others (and the number of these people is growing) who do not like the practice. I respect their right to hold that opinion. Is it shallow ? Perhaps a tiny bit, but I do not condone any legislation that outlaws the practice. It's too much of a "slippery slope" imho. The irony of the legislation in Germany is, although cropping and docking is illegal for dobes, the politicians made sure that they could still dock the tails on their hunting dogs...you explain that one to me.

Tails are a different story. Dobermanns were never bred to have a tail, meaning that breeders never paid attention to the structure of it, so it's my understanding that their natural tails tend to be very fragile and tend to break easily when left undocked, often needing to be surgically removed due to physical trauma later in life. I've never had an undocked dog, so I can't comment on this personally, but I know this is an argument that is often presented, and it makes sense to me.

Edit: I just read the post from GunnersMom...I was not aware of some of the things you posted in regard to the ears. I'll have to put that in my little "bag-o-knowledge".

WorkingInSTL · 06-11-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GunnersMum

Examples of why I prefer the cropped ear:

2. It has been documented that natural ears if shaken hard enough or if they hit an object hard enough can cause blood vessels in the ear to break.

This is interesting, and hoopefully you (or someone else) will know the answers.

1. If cropped ears are subject to the same force, are they equally likely to suffer broken blood vessels ?

2. Are a dobes natural ears more fragile or more prone to this sort of trauma than other breeds (I'm thinking hounds...) ?

I'm curious about this.

DobeSpell · 06-11-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusuwho

Is it necessary to send them to surgery, or is it our desire to change them so they look the way we want them to?

Of course it's not necessary. It's banned in some countries, cannot be necessary.

Some people wants them that way. some not. It's about peple, not dogs.

I don't mind natural ears and tail. I'd probably leave it that way if I'm buying a puppy now.

I wouldn't call anybody shallow for that.

The people who made this I'd call khm something

...but that's another story..

Dobemom2b · 06-11-2008, 03:14 PM

Small tight hanging ears are known to be prone to yeast infections, look at shar-peis as an example.

My dog was cropped when I got him so there was no option. Were I to be given the choice, it would depend. If the dog were a service dog canidate I might leave them natural because it gives a softer appearance to john q public. It says nothing of the dogs temperament but public perception and knee jerk reactions can make a handlers encounters a pita.

My biggest problem is the idea of having our right to choose taken from us.

The doberman even with floppy ears is still a doberman but a convertable is still a convertable even if you never put the top down. Is it pratical on some level to purchase or own something designed for an obvious quality and then never use the quality?

They were bred for a look that suited them to thier role. The ears/tail are just the easiest for the buyer to have some control over, everything about the dog is man made why would you not finish to the final goal?

added
here is a link on shaking ears Hematoma In A Dog's Ear (Pinna) and How The Surgery Is Done In ThePetCenter.com
How To Determine if a Dog Has an Ear Hematoma | eHow.com

An after thought
To the average non dog person it is easier for them to 'read' a prick ear dog. It is obvious when ears are laid back dog isn't happy. Dogs with hanging ears don't have as easily read sign, all dogs can bark or bounce, the ears are one of the things that tell non dog people when a dog is hyper friendly or about to fear bite

King Leonidas · 06-11-2008, 03:33 PM

I agree that it is not necessary, but there are lots of things in life that are not necessary yet we like what we like and I also would not call someone shallow for wanting/liking one way or another. Some people would call it tradition, not unlike what we do to baby boys when they are born. Is it necessary no, does it have it's health benefits yes. I personally would not leave their tails un-docked. Only due to, one I have also heard they can be frail, and two I bruise like a peach! Hello can we say lethal weapon!

GunnersMum · 06-11-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorkingInSTL

This is interesting, and hoopefully you (or someone else) will know the answers.

1. If cropped ears are subject to the same force, are they equally likely to suffer broken blood vessels ?

2. Are a dobes natural ears more fragile or more prone to this sort of trauma than other breeds (I'm thinking hounds...) ?

I'm curious about this.

1. With as much taken off as there is in a cropping procedure and add in the fact that the cropped ear does not flop against it's head as an un cropped dog does - a cropped dog has less chance of breaking a blood vessel.

2. No, all floppy eared dogs can get ear hematoma's (thanks dm2b, the term escaped me while I was typing)

WorkingInSTL · 06-11-2008, 03:56 PM

Ahhhhhhh, hemotomas. Now THAT is something I DO know about. My mom's cat had one when I was a kid, and it had to be fixed surgically. If I remember correctly, that surgery didn't seem all that much different that an ear crop in terms of recovery. (Never did heal right either; I will always remember him as "the cat with the stupid looking ear").

This brings up an interesting point that I had never considered before. What about those of us who are active in dog sports...specifically protection sports like schutzhund, ringsport, psa, etc., where the dog is going to have an increased probability of sustaining an injury like this ? Is an ear crop surgery any worse than a hemotoma, and the resulting surgery it will take to repair it ?