What the Huck, -vWD but still clotting issue?? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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What the Huck, -vWD but still clotting issue??

Now for the main reason I signed up for DT.

At six months old we had our Huckleberry neutered. Other than maybe a little more than normal swelling for a few days, and constant post anesthetic whining until 3AM, he did very well.

About three weeks later we noticed some blood on raw hides he would be chewing on. Then when he would tug and there would be blood, then on toys, then on Calamity's neck. On the third day while he was playing with a pit bull the owner very frantically started panicking thinking Huckleberry had injured his dog, if you knew Huckle you would see the humor in this. So I looked closer at his mouth thinking it was baby teeth but his gums looked bruised around all his teeth. I took him to the vet.

At the vet we found no other bruising (him and Calamity clash like titans), however just rubbing on his gums and blood would easily flow, he had no baby teeth. Of course our immediate thoughts were Von Willebrands but he was just neutered three weeks ago and his labs, surgery, and post-op were fine, but as we all know now that doesn't matter when is comes to vWD.

They took him in the back and drew blood, then they took him a second time to redraw. I took him home with strict instructions of no dog park, no rough play, soft food, and soft chews. After having him home for about 10 minutes, I noticed what I thought was his collar being too tight then I realized it was large hematomas from the blood drawls. I took him back to confirm what the knots were from, this was Friday prior to Thanksgiving. Phone calls were made to prepare for possible transfusion at the local University Veterinary Medical School, which luckily wasn't needed.
Attachment 19708

His clotting time came back normal ruling out any rodenticide poisoning. Calamity and him would make contact for seconds before we could break them apart and she would have blood all over her.

We would soak his food, purée boiled chicken with chicken broth and freeze it plus doggie ice cream to feed him. Yell at him and Calamity (and lots of soft treats) to stop them from playing. Finally after three days his neck/chest stopped bleeding and six days his gums stopped.

It took almost two weeks to get his vWD back from Cornel University and to our dismay it was negative. I know there are questions on the validity of the factor assay level but its mine, and our vets understanding, that its in question if in the grey area, which his wasn't. His was 105%, borderline is 69%.

Our vet has now referred us to the U of MN Veterinary Medical School. We, the vet and us have also read the information on the VetGen website and determined that it would be a waste of money to do the DNA test since he wasn't even borderline, see below chart.

Attachment 19709

Since a few days after Thanksgiving, Huckle hasn't had any bleeding episodes. Under careful observation we have slowly introduced his normal activities because we have struggled with quality vs quantity (how do you keep a puppy from playing for the rest of his life). We would allow him to slowly play with Calamity with close supervision, took him to the dog park during slow times for short times, soaked raw hides, then back to raw bones. He is now back to normal routine without any bleeding.

We were/are going to wait until after the first of the year for further testing at the U.

The only thing that changed during this time is that when we got him at eight weeks we put him on grain free Salmon and Sweet Potatoes dog food for all stages. A week before the bleeding, we switched the food, same brand Pure Vita, grain free Bison with sweet potatoes for all stages.

Has anyone ever experienced this, have any suggestions or advice??

Thanks,

Chris



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Last edited by CalamitysHuckleberry; 04-13-2014 at 02:58 PM.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 04:38 PM
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 05:22 PM
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Just me, but I would do the DNA vetgen or vetnostic test ASAP for peace of mind. Is there a breeder you can also check in with to ask about the lines?

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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 05:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Just me, but I would do the DNA vetgen or vetnostic test ASAP for peace of mind. Is there a breeder you can also check in with to ask about the lines?
BYB, parents not tested but I'm in contact with the owners of several siblings that have been altered without difficulties.


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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 05:45 PM
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Second vote for vetgen


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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
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Second vote for vetgen
And I'll make it a third. I gene test all of my dogs for vWD. Even those whose status I actually know because of their parentage. I don't want to be stuck in a stuation away from my dogs regular vets saying to some vet who is sure that any bleeding issue is going to automatically be vWD if it's a Doberman that my dog has never been gene tested.

vWD is absolutely NOT the only thing that can cause bleeding in dogs--there are 17 or 18 factors that will cause bleeding, even bleeding severe enough to cause a bleed out in what appeared to be a healthy dog.

There are serum assay's for most of these issues and most aren't terribly common but I'd do the gene test if for no other reason than to make sure that it isn't vWD (but frankly that's not normally how clinical affected vWD dogs usually respond).

And I'd be seeing the vet school ASAP to start weeding out other possibilities.

Good luck.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 07:10 PM
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Liver issues can affect clotting....and diet can affect liver. Has he had a full blood panel done? (including leukocytes).

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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 09:01 PM
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Yeah, another echoing voice, on doing the genetic test, so you will know his status for sure.

I'd also assume his liver values were good, or else the surgery would not have proceeded, but I'd want those rechecked fairly soon, as well.

Have you guys already done the coag panels?

Was a buccal test performed?

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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Liver issues can affect clotting....and diet can affect liver. Has he had a full blood panel done? (including leukocytes).
I don't know about the leukocytes, but full blood panel x2, at the neutering and during the "crisis". His clotting was normal and it's my understanding but Lord knows I could be wrong, that if it were hepatic induced clotting issues his platelets would be low but they were normal, also seen in vWD affected dogs. However I'm just a now disabled paramedic trying to interpret the online research, my very competent vet, and the information on past threads.

As far as diet, he was changed from the grain free salmon to bison about a week before the episode.


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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, another echoing voice, on doing the genetic test, so you will know his status for sure.

I'd also assume his liver values were good, or else the surgery would not have proceeded, but I'd want those rechecked fairly soon, as well.

Have you guys already done the coag panels?

Was a buccal test performed?
Liver values were rechecked and normal, coag panel was normal. Buccal test, I don't know what you mean?

Also I forgot to add that during this episode he was "drooling" blood during his sleep. We didn't realize it because his bed is a dark color but when we checked under the cover we saw the blood. Another thing; although there hasn't been any obvious bleeding, his mouth does smell like blood like when he was loosing his baby teeth, but the bruising of his gums are gone. I guess there can be micro capillary bleeding.

Finally I say my Veterinarian is very competent because she has recognized that this out of her league and testing capabilities. She also initially suggested doing the DNA testing until I sent her that chart.

So the VetGen testing it is.

Good thing we asked for U of MN Veterinary Medicine gift certificates for Christmas, either way it looks like we will also be going there.

Thanks for the information!!


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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 10:31 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
And I'll make it a third. I gene test all of my dogs for vWD. Even those whose status I actually know because of their parentage. I don't want to be stuck in a stuation away from my dogs regular vets saying to some vet who is sure that any bleeding issue is going to automatically be vWD if it's a Doberman that my dog has never been gene tested.

vWD is absolutely NOT the only thing that can cause bleeding in dogs--there are 17 or 18 factors that will cause bleeding, even bleeding severe enough to cause a bleed out in what appeared to be a healthy dog.

There are serum assay's for most of these issues and most aren't terribly common but I'd do the gene test if for no other reason than to make sure that it isn't vWD (but frankly that's not normally how clinical affected vWD dogs usually respond).

And I'd be seeing the vet school ASAP to start weeding out other possibilities.

Good luck.
You are awesome, thanks for the information!


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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalamitysHuckleberry View Post
Liver values were rechecked and normal, coag panel was normal. Buccal test, I don't know what you mean?

Also I forgot to add that during this episode he was "drooling" blood during his sleep. We didn't realize it because his bed is a dark color but when we checked under the cover we saw the blood. Another thing; although there hasn't been any obvious bleeding, his mouth does smell like blood like when he was loosing his baby teeth, but the bruising of his gums are gone. I guess there can be micro capillary bleeding.

Finally I say my Veterinarian is very competent because she has recognized that this out of her league and testing capabilities. She also initially suggested doing the DNA testing until I sent her that chart.

So the VetGen testing it is.

Good thing we asked for U of MN Veterinary Medicine gift certificates for Christmas, either way it looks like we will also be going there.

Thanks for the information!!


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Buccal mucosal bleeding time test:

http://www.nwlabs.co.uk/tp5-bleeding-time.htm

Funny, I asked for credits at the vet's for Christmas, too.

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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-18-2012, 02:46 PM
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Just wanted to wish you luck figuring this out. The vets at the University of Minnesota are awesome. (If you see the photos on the wall when you are there, my kitty is the cream Siamese mix looking straight up in the air )


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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-19-2012, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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Just wanted to wish you luck figuring this out. The vets at the University of Minnesota are awesome. (If you see the photos on the wall when you are there, my kitty is the cream Siamese mix looking straight up in the air )
Thanks, I will look for your model kitty!


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