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Old 12-05-2012, 10:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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White dobermans and other colors

Let me start off by saying that I have been researching dobermans for months now from: breeders with most champions, genetics, titles, history, and such. I have talked to breeders, read books, combed the internet, visited breeders, been to shows, and talked to scientist. PLEASE do not fill my thread up with posts about how people don't do there research and are ignorant because having all the information that I do, I probably know more than many people on here, but I know that there are people with more knowledge than I so that is why I am posting this thread. Please keep your comments on topic and factual with links or pictures for reference if possible. I am not saying I agree one way or another I am just saying I have done lots of research and am giving my opinion.

I would like to start with the white doberman. I would agree with the theory that a lot of white dobermans have health or temperament problems, but I could also say that about a lot of the "accepted" colors as well. Few reputable, knowledgeable breeders breed white dobermans right now, so we have people who have no clue what they are doing not knowing what they are breeding. This happens with all the colors though this is part of the reason dobermans have a reputation for being aggressive. My friend was allowed to have her white doberman at an apartment complex but not her black or red. This is because people associate the black and red as dobermans mostly. People have not done knowledgeable breeding and have produced unhealthy, bad temperamented dobermans of all colors.

Having said that I have talked to and read a couple of white doberman breeder's sites. The information and testing they have done is extensive. They are working with colleges and scientist all over the world. They do health test and hair test on all of their dogs and not just the white ones. They breed with knowledge and are about further the breed. Yes they are breeding white dobermans but they are breeding for health and conformation. I can see no fault in them. There are "outstanding, reputable" breeders that only breed reds or blacks that don't do as many health tests as these breeders do. The breeders have said that they themselves have experienced white dobermans with the ailments that people say they have but have never had those issues in any whites that they have breed. I have backed this information up with owners of their puppies.

One of the main things people say is that dobermans have poor eyesight and squint in the sunlight. I would like to point out that people with blue eyes squint more in the sunlight than people with other color eyes. Yet I am sure that there are people on this forum with blue eyes that have children. Why is it ok to let your kid have to squint more than someone with brown eyes but it isn't ok for a doberman. Some owners of white dobermans have even stated that their white doberman squints no more than their dobermans of other colors. Eye exams have been done on white dobermans that have been carefully bred to check for issues. Very few of them have actually had any eye problems and the scientist performing the exams said that part of the ones with them could be from the eye problems that can be in dobermans of any color.

To say that a white doberman is an albino is yet a factual claim. It may come to that it is proven to be but the closest it has come so far is to be considered a partial albino which no scientist has said for sure that is true. They are still unsure of where the gene comes from. One scientist referred to the hair as blond because it did have pigment in it. All the hairs so far have had some amounts of pigment in them. Albino is considered the absence of pigment. Hard to say an animal is an albino if sciences has shown that they do have pigment. Time may prove them to be albino but time may also prove that they are not.

People say that dobermans are genetic defects. If you would like to say that then you have to say that about fawns and Isabellas as well. They were originally "genetic defects" that people now consider acceptable. I don't see anyone refusing to breed or show dogs that carry for or show the dilute gene. Science has shown that the dilute gene is a genetic anomaly which in layman terms would be genetic defect.

People also love pointing out that all white dobermans go back to a single dog, but what about champion bloodlines that go back just as far to a single dog. We don't say anything about that because it is considered acceptable because it is what people feel is ok.

One thing I do have a huge problem with is dogs that have the Z in their name and are discriminated against even thought it many generations away from a white. The white gene more than likely has been bred out by that point.

If we want to talk about genetic defects, we should really talk about blues and fawns and the problems with loss of hair. This has proven to be a problem but once again it is something that with careful breeding and proper diet can be pretty much stopped. We still have "outstanding, reputable" breeders breeding fawns and blues even though there is a chance that they could have this issue.

Now to close my first run on this thread I would like to bring up the dominant black doberman. I have found very little information on them and would really like as much information as possible. I do know from research that melanism is most times occurring in animals as a heightened immune system.

Thanks for reading and I hope that this thread can stay civil and factual and that we all can learn a lot from it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
Let me start off by saying that I have been researching dobermans for months now from: breeders with most champions, genetics, titles, history, and such. I have talked to breeders, read books, combed the internet, visited breeders, been to shows, and talked to scientist. PLEASE do not fill my thread up with posts about how people don't do there research and are ignorant because having all the information that I do, I probably know more than many people on here, but I know that there are people with more knowledge than I so that is why I am posting this thread. Please keep your comments on topic and factual with links or pictures for reference if possible. I am not saying I agree one way or another I am just saying I have done lots of research and am giving my opinion.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I am open to discussion about anything I said. As I pointed out, I was just giving my opinion based on my research, if you have factual information for me. I would greatly appreciate it. I am a seeker of knowledge hence I came to a place that should have people with knowledge of what I am researching.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I am sorry if what I put came off as offensive I did not mean that in anyway. I have just read many threads on this subject and none of the replies seem to be helpful or factual just people being condescending. I truly am trying to find out as much as I can on these issues.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:40 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Well crud, I read some more and have a question. I'm getting pulled in =\

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Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
Few reputable, knowledgeable breeders breed white dobermans right now
Can you please link me (though I'm sure more than just I are curious) to reputable breeders of dobermans that breed whites because I absolutely cannot think of any.

Also, what makes a breeder reputable in your eyes?
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:42 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I will have to get the links when I get home of the one that I have read the most from. I consider someone reputable if they are doing their do diligence when it comes to breeding and health testing. Ethical breeding like not constantly breeding a female. Performing health tests on their dogs and when it comes to the whites do everything in their power to prove out the genetics of it one way or another.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Doberman Pinscher Club of America Albino- What is an Albino Doberman?. What could perhaps be viewed as a mix of fact and opinion, depending on one's outlook.

I would be interested in facts and links about the scientific research and health testing being participated in by people who deliberately breed white Dobermans.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
I will have to get the links when I get home of the one that I have read the most from. I consider someone reputable if they are doing their do diligence when it comes to breeding and health testing. Ethical breeding like not constantly breeding a female. Performing health tests on their dogs and when it comes to the whites do everything in their power to prove out the genetics of it one way or another.
What are your feelings on titling?
What health tests do you like to see done?

I know I"m asking a lot of questions but it'll be hard for others to know exactly what you're talking about without such information. I've found, especially lately, that labeling a breeder as "reputable" is a lot more subjective than I thought.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I have read that article as well as the longer article that the lady wrote on research she had started on them. Some of the things I had a problem with in her research was that all the puppies produced in the breedings were black and rust and had temperament problems. Which lends to the theory that the temperament problem is from poor breeding and not because the dog is white. With proper breeding over time, I don't see why there would be temperament problems. I personally know people with white dobermans that are the sweetest dogs in the world and are very trainable. There are white dobermans with titles as well as champion titles.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:51 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Also: Albinism Science

Partial quote:
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS:

All current evidence supports the conclusion that “white” Dobermans are indeed suffering from some type of albinism. Like other “tyrosinase-positive or “partial “ albinos, they have unpigmented skin and eyes. Like other albinos, the trait is inherited as a simple recessive trait. Like several other types of alblinism, they appear to have abnormal melanosomes. In fact, nationally recognized geneticists agree that these dogs are albino. Several experts in genetics, alblinism, pathology, and opthamology have agreed these dogs appear to be albinos, including G.A. Padgett, D.F. Patterson,

M.F.C. Ladd, W.S. Oetting, J.P. Scott, and David Prieur. Not a single expert in any of these fields has reached any other conclusion.

SCIENTIFIC CITATIONS:

For example, Dr. Oetting has stated “It sounds as if the dogs do indeed have albinism…These dogs sound like they have OCA1 resulting from mutations of the tyrosinase gene, a major gene in pigment formation”.

G.A. Padgett, DVM, Professor of Pathology, has stated “I would agree with Dr Patterson’s suggestions (1982) that this is probably a mutation in the C series. I believe it is an albino, although not the classical pink-eyed tyrosine negative animal which we associate with this term. They are phototypic, and I believe there is little disagreement with this statement”. After examination of hairs , Dr Padgett says “ The white Doberman is not a normal white.”. Dr. Padgett also lists albino Dobermans as partial albinos in his book Control of Canine Genetic Diseases.

David J Prieur,DVM, PhD. Of the WSU Dept. of Veterinary Microbiology and Pathology, has stated “Several years ago I expressed my concern regarding the breeding of “white” Doberman Pinscher dogs. I expressed the opinion that the gene for the white coat was a deleterious gene and that the Doberman Pinscher breed would be better served by not incorporating this gene into the gene pool of the breed. Although these ‘white’ Dobermans have been shown not to be true albinos, they are tyrosine- positive albinoids with a severe reduction of melanin in oculocutaneous structures. There have been numerous defects described in animals of other species with genes of this type…I am unaware of any information, published or presented, since I originally expressed my concerns, which would lead me to believe that this gene is not deleterious.”

Dr. M.F.C. Ladd, a British veterinary geneticist, has stated “Albinism means the complete absence of melanin pigment (Searle,1981) . If one accepts this view, then dogs such as the white Dobermanns with blue eyes , can be termed albinos….Unless much more evidence is forth coming, I feel that the white Dobermann should be looked upon as abnormality, known to exist and hoped to be avoided.

J.P. Scott, PhD., a geneticist at Bowling Green State University, has stated; “Photophobia would constitute somewhat of a handicap to a working dog”, and “Something must be done” . I realize that most breeders are responsible, selecting strains that seem good. But once an undesirable trait enters a breed, it is not an easy thing to eliminate.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:54 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I agree that labeling a breeder reputable is very subjective. Orginally I only considered a breeder reputable if he or she was breeding to obtain the optimum in health and conformation to show the dog, but I have realized over time there are people that may not breed for the AKC standard but breed for a particular look that they like and breed for health as well. I don't see them as not being reputable just because they aren't making a dog look like what an organization says it should look like.

As for what tests I like to see. I will probably get some spelling on OFA, vWd, CERF are the three that I can think of right off the top of my head. When it comes to the white dobermans, I do think that hair samples should be sent to the scientist doing research on them. The more they have to experiment on the sooner we can have a scientific answer.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:56 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Thank you GingerGunlock for that article I will be adding it to my research folder when I get home. Much appreciated.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:59 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
I agree that labeling a breeder reputable is very subjective. Orginally I only considered a breeder reputable if he or she was breeding to obtain the optimum in health and conformation to show the dog, but I have realized over time there are people that may not breed for the AKC standard but breed for a particular look that they like and breed for health as well. I don't see them as not being reputable just because they aren't making a dog look like what an organization says it should look like
A dog that is not conformationally (spl? my browser says it's wrong) sound cannot perform as well as a dog that is. What do these breeders do to prove that the dog, even if not within standard, is conformationally sound?
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:02 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I'll bite. If they're breeding white dobes for conformation, how are they doing so? Albinos cannot be shown in the AKC ring.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:02 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I have not really seen it in dobermans but as far as boxers there are three different ideas of the perfect looking boxer. The American, German?, and English versions. The English version tends to be a mixture of the other two. All are conformationally sound but have different looks to them and when should outside of their region do not normally do well.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Not everyone that breeds for proper conformation show even when it comes to blacks. Some people just enjoy the breed and want to breed it to the best of their ability and don't have the time to show or want to put the time and money into it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:03 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Thank you GingerGunlock for that article I will be adding it to my research folder when I get home. Much appreciated.
You're welcome! It is an interesting topic, and while I would adopt an albino Doberman from rescue, I would neither personally purchase one from a breeder, nor recommend such a practice.

Albino Dobermans are still Dobermans. They may still do well in performance events such as Obedience, but as for championships, they are not (to my knowledge) permitted in the AKC conformation ring. I don't know what other "championships" you might be referring to an albino Doberman as having.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:05 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Is it a full moon this week?

I think I'll take BenVera's advice for now.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:06 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Having said that I have talked to and read a couple of white doberman breeder's sites. The information and testing they have done is extensive. They are working with colleges and scientist all over the world.
I think I'll wait to see the reports from the colleges and (that?) scientist, but feel free to post that, or have the white dobe breeders come on here and post the results of their scientific research.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:06 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Not everyone that breeds for proper conformation show even when it comes to blacks. Some people just enjoy the breed and want to breed it to the best of their ability and don't have the time to show or want to put the time and money into it.
Many people do not consider those breeders to be reputable breeders. If you breed for conformation, you need conformation titles to back it up. If you breed for obedience, you should have obedience or rally titles to back it up. If you breed for working ability, you should have schutzhund or french ring or mondio or personal protection or police dog certificates.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I am sorry I didn't mean champions that is my bad. I meant hold multiple titles.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:12 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I agree that some people do not find them to be reputable breeders because I used to be one of those people. I just don't agree with them now.
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