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Old 12-07-2012, 11:11 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
I agree but we don't know which problem it is as of yet. Seeing as there ARE whites that don't squint more than a "accepted" color.
Is this your opinion? Could you post statistics?

Oops, I think our posts hit about the same time.

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Old 12-07-2012, 11:14 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
A white doberman can be a protector. And I realize they need the proper conformation and temperament to do that but I don't agree that color has anything to do with that.

When my friend walks she takes her mutt as protection to. Any dog can be used for protection. And he has been trained in obedience, defensive, and offensive training by a guy near I believe Birmingham, AL whose name is Ralph. He doesn't have the markings or look of a doberman but he is just as intuitive and intelligent as any dog I have ever seen.

Nothing you have said has in my OPINION proven that they can't perform their duties. THEY NEED SUNSCREEN- so do fair skin cops. THEY SQUINT IN THE SUN- so do most people with blue eyes and there are many cops out there with blue eyes. Just because they squint doesn't mean other cops are better than they are.
People are coming from adults who choose to have children.

Albino Doberman are coming from dogs who are not able to speak for themselves, being bred over an over because they are a rare color whose uturus can make their owner money, with their puppies often living in bad conditions, sold for money to anyone who can fork over some cash.

People choosing to have children is very different than horrible people forcing their dogs to pump out puppies for money.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:14 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
And as I have said. I PERSONALLY have met a white that didn't really squint. NOT heard of one SAW one.
There will be individual differences within a population. What I'd really like to see is a lot more scientific research done on albino Dobermans, with large representative sample sizes, so that more is known about their albinism, about their health proclivities, their temperament foibles. And of course I'd like to see more scientific health research done on Dobermans in general (non-albinos being considered the "control" group, I guess).
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:16 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
You can only breed with so much certainty no matter what. There is always something from the past popping up aka dilutes, whites, and health issues. Yes you know with more certainty that those will not pop up but there is always a risk. No you aren't going to be able to consistently produce quality dogs in a couple of years but over time you could.
A breeder who does the color DNA test for their dogs knows how to avoid pairing that will prevent dilutes. Many people on this forum believe that should be the way to go.

A breeder who knows the lineage of their dog will be able to tell if the dog is Z-factored. If the dog is Z-factored, it may be a carrier of albino.

You are right, in every well-bred litter there will be dogs that are ideal and dogs that are not. Show, work, sporty, and pet. I wanted a dog from working lines that would be considered a "dud" pet puppy when I was breeder shopping, because I wanted to be able to dabble in certain sports but not be unfair to the dog if I found that I didn't enjoy said sport. However because that's what I wanted, I was looking for breeders who have consistently produced working dogs because I know that there will be pet puppies in every litter, but I also know that they know what they're doing and are still producing dogs that will make the cut.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:33 PM   #130 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
10 Straight Facts About Albino Animals | Scienceray

I found this interesting especially the fact of:
Albinos are generally as healthy as the rest of their species with normal growth and development as well as capability of reproduction.

As one of the big things against the white doberman is that it is not as healthy as a normal doberman. A scientific website refutes that statement. Not an opinion. A scientific fact found from years of researching albino animals.
You seriously consider that a scholarly cite?

Do you know what a cite is, serious question? As opposed to "site," and "sight."

That's an article, not an abstract or a study.

There are not even footnotes, or any cites given.

If this is what you consider good information, then I am starting to understand why you're so misled.

Also, the very article you cite mentions survival rate in the wild is low for albinos (where's the study on that, to be fair? although it's widely held as fact).

That right there should tell you it's a deleterious mutation.

It also discusses the greatly increased risk of melanoma.

That's a tad more serious than squinting and sunburn, dontcha think?



Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
They are not within standard because people pushed for them to be a disqualifying color. Every new color that pops up on a dog has a strong contigency against it.

Scientific studies show that in mammal breedings 1 in 10,000 are albinos in birds it is even higher at 1 in 1,767. Albinos exist in all species of animals and science has shown that hey are just as healthy as normal colored animals. Maybe the albinos we have now don't fit the structural standard but who is to say someone can't spend years breeding in good lines and producing properly structured ones?

Maybe no breeder that you consider reputable would breed to an albino but what if someone buought a couple of show quality studs and showed them and tested them and then bred them to a couple of albino bitches. Then the z factor offspring that showed show potential showed and tested them and culled (spayed or neutered) the other offspring. And over time could successful produce quality line white dobermans. Any show breeder has spent years getting to the point they have to consistently produce the quality of dogs that they do. It didnt just happen in a few breedings and if it did it is because they are really just using someone elses lines.
To the part I bolded there: See, that would be where you would want to include a cite. Something folks could go read themselves, to verify/evaluate accuracy.

You really can't just throw out stuff like that, base your claims and debates on such comments, without giving your source. It's poor form, and lacks credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
And as I have said. I PERSONALLY have met a white that didn't really squint. NOT heard of one SAW one.
And I've seen MANY that do.

Does that cancel out the one anecdotal instance you're touting?

I shudder to think of the level of scientific understanding in our country today, if this is what our schools are now producing.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:42 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
Your last statement I could not agree with more, but it has taken MANY years of knowledgeable breeding to produce the dogs that we see today. When these quality lines first started they had to outcross and inbreed and linebreed to produce the conformation, temperament, and health they are producing today.

My friends white doberman doesn't seem to squint anymore in the light than her red one does. I hope to get a video up soon to show this. The squinting could possibly be a health issue not connected to the gene that is causing them to be white but from poor breeding.

Some albino's may squint more or less than others but it is a fact that albino's (people and animals) have poor vision and light sensitivity. I don't really believe in the comparisons between people having children and breeding purebred dogs. But people do have the benefit of corrective eye wear and sunglasses which is really not available widely to canines. I absolutly adore albinos and the rescue I'm with has had up to 8 available at once and still have 4 right now I am wholeheartedly against breeding for reasons like color or a genetic mutation.

I would be very surprised to see albinism accecepted in any purebred standard since as stated before it is not a color but a genetic defect.
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:14 AM   #132 (permalink)
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Attachment 19549

Hades in the car on the way to the vet one day. Definitely squinting. I guess just something to consider. I don't let him out back by the pool with me during sunny days (which are frequent in South Florida). He cries, but I don't want him to get sunburnt and it can't feel good on his sensitive eyes.

He also has sensitive skin. I have to use a special shampoo (epi-soothe)

Also has a grain allergy.

Just be prepared if you do get one. I love him regardless but I'd probably be angry if I paid $1,000 for him like the original BYBs charged.


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Old 12-13-2012, 01:25 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:26 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Hi, let me introduce ourselves, my name is Chris as is my partners. We have a 18 month old Doberman named Calamity and since we named her before we got her and she has managed to live up to the name, we have a seven month old male named Huckleberry (wanted our next to be a male named Mayhem, then we got to know Calamity and figured out She needed a Huckleberry).

I digressed. I have to say y'all are a little intimidating but hey what's the worse you can do? Throw fonts at me specially chosen by a wordsmith covered (at the dismay of said wordsmith) with emoticons? So here it goes.

I have a white/cream/albino/spawn of a BYB.
I did no research on them other than remembering a conversation on a street with a complete stranger about ten years ago that had a one as a puppy and he said they were great. I could try to get you the proper citation on that source, but it will take a longggg time. Anyways I said cool, where did you get him, he is beautiful? (More research). And that was about it, wait he told me the pups name but I don't remember what it was I do remember when they left the pup fell down the curb.

So many years later and many rescue dogs later. With all their idiosyncrasies including a couple of diluted dobies; a blue one and a fawn one, both died without hardly a single hair on them in their teens. We decided it was time to cause some idiosyncrasies of our own and get a puppy. Poor decision because we had to put 5 dogs down in a year and were not thinking rationally.

So yes we are an owner of a white dobie.
Yes we bought her from a previously mentioned breeder
Yes we thought it would be cool and she is
Yes she has her own idiosyncrasies.....far worse then the others not only because they are, but we didn't have some misfortune to blame them on, she wasn't a rescue with some ill gotten past. We got her at 8 weeks old, we socialized her too death, we took her to puppy class (we ignored the trainer when she told us that pink nose, blue eye, pink skin, white animals are very hyper and difficult) obedience class, month long boot camp, agility class, tricks class, leash walking class. Daycare was a regular thing and dog parks. At the dog parks we started to notice to would squint, then she would run into trees and benches, like misjudging the distance, then she started running into people and other dogs....this didn't go over so well when running at full speed. Throw a ball or toy at her during daylight, it will hit her in the face, at night with artificial light she is perfect!!

I thought I had forgotten about how hyper a puppy was, plus I was a lil older. I also thought and was told I had a way with dogs, but this girl was a handful, often times proving how smart she is while other times proving how unfocused she could also be. I averaged four hours of sleep a night the first few months we had her - hyper was an understatement. Her bootcamp trainer said it best "The good news is she is very very smart. The bad news is she is very, very smart."

First significant sign of aggression issue; I travel for work and my partner brought her to my hotel for Thanksgiving, she didn't know who I was until I spoke, I had been gone a couple of months, she was seven months old. We had a co-worker over for T-Giving dinner, and all was great. Calamity was lying on the floor all stretched out and my co-worker stood up and Calamity lunged, this continued all night, we had to keep her tethered. I cried myself to sleep but then went into denial because after all it was a lot of stressful circumstances.

The behavior issues continued. She would lunge and snap at people around corners at pet store (same place we had been taken her since we got her), at friends and contractors at the house. The final straw, my partners 5 year old nephew that helped raise her, fed her, slept with her, played with her. He didn't come over for a couple of months but then came one night, we had him feed her treats it was obvious she recognized him, laid next to him, chased the ball for him but when he jumped up to go to the bathroom she lunged and snapped and luckily only got his shorts. Daycare then started complaining that when she naps and a dog walks up on her she snaps. At the dog parks she goes hard and powerful nipping (especially tails) chasing a dog and totally oblivious to us calling her off ( remember hours and hours and monies of training). When it does click that we have given her a command you can almost see it "click", its not like she is ignoring us, it's like she can't multitask, she can't put it all together. She is now obsessed with chasing anything with a loud noise, no matter where it is in relation to where she is. Her hearing is amazing, she will stop whatever she is doing and take off running "towards" the following (from inside the house, inside the car, inside the dog park, daycare, backyard, pet store....you get the picture), buses, planes, helicopters, trains, boats especially barges, seagulls. She hears them on TV and starts running through the house barking looking up into the sky. She barks at the sky when nothing is there, at corners, at door openings and we don't know why, spirits maybe? She can not see well enough to read body language, especially of a resource guarding dog and she loves balls, can't see them to find them when you throw them but sure does love trying!

She is awesome with puppies and believe it or not if it scares her, which many things do like running into things or falling off things, she continues to try it....sometimes good (she was great at agility) sometimes bad ( resource guarding animals, jumping off steep inclines etc.).

So let the examples above contribute a little to research but let me add a little more, albeit unscientific. Calamity had three other white siblings, a couple of black, a few red, and I think one fawn. We are in close contact with the owners of some of these, especially the whites; all are having similar issues, either reactionary fearful aggression or reactionary nervousness to the point of shutting down for days for unknown reasons. One such owner has two of her siblings, both females, one white, one black. The black is a dream, zero issues, health wise or behavior, well adjusted. The white rips everything up, carpet, shoes, sunglasses, entire couch. The white isn't aggressive, she is the opposite, she shuts down for days. So bad last time that she had to be carried outside to use the bathroom and just shiver and shake and carried back in, this went on for days. It's like having a breakdown, Calamity will have weird days like that also. Then they just snap out of it. Nothing medically is found wrong.

Doesn't prove much then how about this. We decided that maybe Calamity needed a big male dog to kind of reassure her, take over a little, a seeing eye dog so to speak. I mean you should see her, always on guard, hyper vigilant.

So we got a red, different breeder, of course different parents. Big guy however he did have a sibling that is as white as pure snow. Our Huckleberry is trained after being told or shown three times, he had three accidents in the house, that's it. A few puppy chewing incidents (so far, he is only 7 months) and he has grounded Calamity quite a bit. She is still more hyper than him. He does have an undiagnosed bleeding disorder but thats for another forum. His white sister, a pure devil, the owners - who I tried to talk out of getting a white because of our issues and they have never had a dog before much rather one like this - has threatened to give her up twice now and it's only just begun because they also want to breed her. They also got a red for a family friend and he is the best, no issues what so ever.

All of this being said we love our Calamity to death and wouldn't give her up for a million dollars. I have never seen a Doberman and this is my fifth, be as expressive as this one is. No offense intended but we like to describe her as our special needs girl, that if there were an autistic/Aspergers dog, she would be it.

I know it's long winded but I hope this helps.. I may rescue a white sometime in the far future but I will never seek one out again.


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Old 12-13-2012, 01:34 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:36 PM   #136 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone here will bash you for "owning" an albino. Also, certainly at least most of us will applaud you for realizing that purchasing from BYB is not a good way to go. If your male has an albino sibling, it is likely that he came from another BYB, but is a moot point as you have him already.

Love both of them and care for them for their lives. In the event that you become ready for another (when these pass on), either rescue or perhaps we could point you in the right direction for a reputable breeder in your area.

In the mean time... welcome.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:40 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Welcome to the forums and thanks for sharing about your girl. You should start a new thread with pictures - I'm sure that everybody would love to see them :]


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I may rescue a white sometime in the far future but I will never seek one out again.[/color]
I don't know if it's apparent from this thread or not but this (rescuing but not buying) is the general opinion from most of the forum. You cannot blame a dog for where it comes from but, the idea is that if you don't support the unethical breeders than, eventually, they'll stop breeding. Hopefully.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:43 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Welcome to the forums and thanks for sharing about your girl. You should start a new thread with pictures - I'm sure that everybody would love to see them :]



I don't know if it's apparent from this thread or not but this (rescuing but not buying) is the general opinion from most of the forum. You cannot blame a dog for where it comes from but, the idea is that if you don't support the unethical breeders than, eventually, they'll stop breeding. Hopefully.
I totally agree. My partner and I tell ourselves that the issues we have are karma for not sticking with the rescues.


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Old 12-13-2012, 01:49 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Hi, let me introduce ourselves, my name is Chris as is my partners. We have a 18 month old Doberman named Calamity . . .
Welcome . . . and thank you for taking the time to outline some of your experiences with Calamity and to give this girl the best life possible, even with all her limitations. I admire your perseverance.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:50 PM   #140 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone here will bash you for "owning" an albino. Also, certainly at least most of us will applaud you for realizing that purchasing from BYB is not a good way to go. If your male has an albino sibling, it is likely that he came from another BYB, but is a moot point as you have him already.

Love both of them and care for them for their lives. In the event that you become ready for another (when these pass on), either rescue or perhaps we could point you in the right direction for a reputable breeder in your area.

In the mean time... welcome.
Nothing but rescues for us, our red would have been a rescue but we couldn't find one in the timeline we needed to fit the unique needs suggested by our trainer. He fits it perfectly and might I add that both are altered. Thanks for having us!


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Old 12-13-2012, 01:53 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Welcome . . . and thank you for taking the time to outline some of your experiences with Calamity and to give this girl the best life possible, even with all her limitations. I admire your perseverance.
Thanks for having us!


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Old 12-13-2012, 01:56 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Welcome to DT! Glad you realized your mistakes, and you will find that most on here had a BYB dog at some point. It's the willingness to learn and improve that counts.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:01 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Welcome, CalamitysHuckleberry!
Please do start your own thread with pictures, I think you will find DT members very non-intimidating, especially considering your humble approach. Making an admittedly ill-researched decision is something most have us have done at one point or another. Thank-you for doing the best you can with your dogs.
Besides, you heard the OP...you can't post on his super-special-smart thread unless you're super-special-smart enough
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:28 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Quote:
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A white doberman can be a protector. And I realize they need the proper conformation and temperament to do that but I don't agree that color has anything to do with that.

When my friend walks she takes her mutt as protection to. Any dog can be used for protection. And he has been trained in obedience, defensive, and offensive training by a guy near I believe Birmingham, AL whose name is Ralph. He doesn't have the markings or look of a doberman but he is just as intuitive and intelligent as any dog I have ever seen.
OT, but

Remy is probably referencing Ralph Gibson of Ralph Gibson's World of Dogs - Best Dog Training Anywhere. Interesting guy, kinda old-school. Definitely didn't see eye-to-eye with him as he does board-and-train primarily and uses a lot of corrections. (Know what happens when you leash-correct Delta because she's not sitting? She looks at you funny because she has NO IDEA that leash correction = "supposed to be sitting" She didn't even understand it to be a correction, just a human acting weird.). Charges an arm and a leg for protection training, but actually listened to me when I argued that there WERE good working-line doberman breeders in the US - just not many, and far outnumbered by bad breeders.


Back on track - Welcome to CalamitysHuckleberry and the Chris^2 (That is too neat, but doesn't it get confusing? My son, husband and father-in-law all have the same first name and it definitely gets confusing at times! :p)
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:54 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Hi, let me introduce ourselves, my name is Chris as is my partners. We have a 18 month old Doberman named Calamity and since we named her before we got her and she has managed to live up to the name, we have a seven month old male named Huckleberry (wanted our next to be a male named Mayhem, then we got to know Calamity and figured out She needed a Huckleberry).
Hi and welcome to DT. Your girl looks very sweet. I feel so sorry for these albino's and all the issues they seem to have. They are really dealt a crappy hand in life it seems. Shame on the idiots who breed them for nothing more than to make a buck.

Good luck with your girl, she is lucky to have an owner like you that cares so much.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:00 PM   #146 (permalink)
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OT, but

Remy is probably referencing Ralph Gibson of Ralph Gibson's World of Dogs - Best Dog Training Anywhere. Interesting guy, kinda old-school. Definitely didn't see eye-to-eye with him as he does board-and-train primarily and uses a lot of corrections. (Know what happens when you leash-correct Delta because she's not sitting? She looks at you funny because she has NO IDEA that leash correction = "supposed to be sitting" She didn't even understand it to be a correction, just a human acting weird.). Charges an arm and a leg for protection training, but actually listened to me when I argued that there WERE good working-line doberman breeders in the US - just not many, and far outnumbered by bad breeders.


Back on track - Welcome to CalamitysHuckleberry and the Chris^2 (That is too neat, but doesn't it get confusing? My son, husband and father-in-law all have the same first name and it definitely gets confusing at times! :p)
It does get confusing at times, it didn't help when her sister got us monogrammed towels one year for Christmas that said Chris 1 and Chris 2, we thought we are both #1!

One very important point I forgot to make. The biggest problem with Calamity and her eyesight issue, hyper vigilance, hyper hearing, and reactionary response - she is the epitome of a "working, guarding, protecting" Doberman. It's like handling a gun without a safety option, it's still a gun, but can you ever "safely" handle it? Just sayin....

Thanks for having us!!


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Old 12-13-2012, 03:07 PM   #147 (permalink)
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I'm curious if you got your white Doberman from the breeder I mentioned Hades originally came from. I got him from a rescue but I traced him there via his AKC registration. He has a weird obsession with tails too. When we're at the dog park he always goes after tails, never hard enough to hurt but like a pull to get the dogs attention and hopefully illicit a chase. He loves running whether he's being chased or he's doing the chasing. I always joke and say its "tail envy" as he is docked and its usually a big fluffy tail he seems to like. I know in reality it's probably just prey drive. As long as he's not hurting the other dog I don't have an issue with it. He never bites other dogs other than the tail grab even if a dog is jumping on him and play biting he just takes it and loves it.

So far no major issues with Hades. He will be 2 in January and no problems with hearing or vision other than squinting in bright sunlight.

He used to lunge and bark at dogs when we walked as well, but I started using the "sit" and "watch me" commands la Victoria Stilwell. And he does much better. I think based on the episode I watched that dog was being aggressive but not vicious. He just wanted to play with the dog but would get so excited and felt restrained by the leash and that turned into lunging and barking (not very adorable coming from an 80lb Doberman) once I let Hades get to the dog to sniff (once hes sitting and watching me and acting calm) he's all wiggle butt friendly and wants to play.

He is nothing but friendly when I have guests over. Usually trying to make himself comfortable on their laps which not everyone necessarily prefers. He has never lunged at or acted aggressive toward any person. (Except my super creepy neighbor who came by one night when I was outside in the yard) I assume its because of the vision issues it sounds like your dog has/is developing. I have a deaf border collie mix but no experience with vision problems.

We'll see what changes with Hades as he continues to get older.

Good luck


http://Www.whitedobermanpuppies.com

That's them >:-/
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:11 PM   #148 (permalink)
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No offense intended but we like to describe her as our special needs girl, that if there were an autistic/Aspergers dog, she would be it.




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Welcome, and thanks for sharing

The part I quoted made me smile. I am a mother of 2 autistic children (don't worry I took NO offense to what you said, I could tell you meant it in a nice way), and I often joke that one of our cats is also autistic. She shares many of the little "quirks" that my kids have, and we find it endearing in her. Anyway long story short, I know how awesome people with autism can be (my kids show me every day), and your girl sounds pretty special herself.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:12 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Quote:
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A white doberman can be a protector. And I realize they need the proper conformation and temperament to do that but I don't agree that color has anything to do with that.

When my friend walks she takes her mutt as protection to. Any dog can be used for protection. And he has been trained in obedience, defensive, and offensive training by a guy near I believe Birmingham, AL whose name is Ralph. He doesn't have the markings or look of a doberman but he is just as intuitive and intelligent as any dog I have ever seen.

Nothing you have said has in my OPINION proven that they can't perform their duties. THEY NEED SUNSCREEN- so do fair skin cops. THEY SQUINT IN THE SUN- so do most people with blue eyes and there are many cops out there with blue eyes. Just because they squint doesn't mean other cops are better than they are.
If you were in a position to have a baby, and were able to select this babies traits, do you think it would make sense to purposely select to have an albino baby? What you're saying is ludicrous.

Fair skin cops were not from parents who were selectively bred to produce fair skinned children because this is a desirable trait. If someone was going to be an officer, and had planned on spending time in the sun, do you think it would be desirable to breed in a way that produces fair skin? Seriously, think about what you're saying...
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:22 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Albino is pretty different to fair skin in people anyway - I have very fair skin, and I do burn (have very light blue eyes which are not light sensitive though) but compared to the two albino girls I know my problems are nothing.
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