VZ-Doberman

How could they not be for a working breed?

remysdobys

It does not make it unable to do what dobermans were bred to do. It just makes the owner have to be responsible in taking precautions.

Yes he has stated what he has to do but as I stated I have to do the same for my fair skinned niece. She hates being in the sun and you have to hold her hand when you walk in it because she always wants to close her eyes. Should people who will produce fair skinned children not be allowed to have kids?

remysdobys

Well if it is just that it is negative because they are a working breed, then any breeder who only shows their dogs and does not get them to obtain working titles and people who have dobermans and don't use them for working "aren't reputable and are scum". If the reason that they are negative is because it effects their ability to do what they were bred to do and that is the reason you are saying they shouldn't be allowed in the standard and shouldn't be bred, then any doberman that is not doing what it was bred to do should not be bred.

VZ-Doberman

You seem to be fixated on the what if. If by some stroke of genius a group of breeders managed to fix the conformation problems and the temperament issues, you would still have a dog that was unfit for working. And again, the doberman is a working breed.

DobeAndBorderCollie

Yes you're right, any dog with white short hair is prone to sunburn. My friend has a white pit bull that he has to put sunblock on even though shes not an albino. I too have read up a lot on whether or not white dobermans are true albinos and agree they might not be true albinos.

That being said, I don't think the albino debate matters as much as what I consider the bigger issue with them. My dog came from two other whites/albinos being bred. The breeders had 7-8 white/albino dobermans that they just bred and bred. (As I said...scumbags)

The health issues are probably much less about whether or not they're "albino" and more to do with the stigma with white dobermans. Certain breeders won't breed them, leading to them being less common, therefore the ones who do breed them have less to pick from. I'm sure there is much more inbreeding going on when it comes to whites than a black/rust Doberman for example. I think the more rampant inbreeding that is likely happening with whites is what's the root of the health issues. Until the albino debate is settled and whites are accepted (if they aren't in fact a mutation) will any type of reputable breeding ever happen.

I don't know where you are but the rescue I got Hades from had another white Doberman.... a year old I believe. Just a thought


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VZ-Doberman

Yes, it does make them unable to do what the doberman was bred to do.

Apples and oranges. Why would you force your niece to walk in the sun when it is something she finds unpleasant?

Do you understand what the purpose of the doberman is?

remysdobys

I COMPLETELY agree that most of the issues with albinos is that of the way they are being bred, but there are just as many bybs breeding black and rusts with health issues. It is not the gene it is the breeders. I have stated many times I don't agree with they way they are breeding them. I am just as against the way they are being bred since they are not being bred for structure, temperament, and health. ANY doberman of ANY color that is not bred for all three will have problems.

I also do have a problem with breeding any homo recessive gene animal to a homo recessive gene animal. I feel that the recessive gene should only he bred homo to het or het to het (not sure if they refer to it like that in mammals lol but that is the reptile way)

Nynaeve

When you breed a dog, you breed the entire pedigree. Reputable breeders have generation upon generation of quality, health tested dogs behind them. Albino breeders have generation upon generation of untitled and untested dogs behind them, going back to a few generations of horribly inbred dogs that go back to a single bitch.

No reputable breeder will want any dog they bred to come near that, even if Albinos were in the standard. Which is where you would get any starting show quality dogs.

remysdobys

I don't force her. She wants to go to the park or the beach or whatever. It is impossible to go to these places without going in the sun.

I do understand what the original purpose of a doberman was. As I know what the original purpose of a yorkie was. But neither of them are really used for their original purpose. They are now household pets and friends. I highly doubt that you walk your property with your doberman on guard duty or use him to protect you as you travel down bandit filled roads. As I know there are probably no yorkies that are used for rat-baiting or hunting rats.

So I am missing how white dobermans can not perform the today duties of a doberman. White dobermans compete in trials and make loving household pets.

VZ-Doberman

But the dogs that are within the standard are quite capable of doing what they were bred to do. It's when they are not within standard (like what bybs churn out) is when they cannot do their jobs. Look around and you will see members here who have titles both working, confo, sar, service, etc. and also dogs that are in the process of competing or working. The pedigrees behind these dogs have titles from different venues.

If a dog that squints in sunlight, a dog that sunburns without sunblock is not a dog that can work.

A dobe must have good conformation to hold up to the rigors of working. They must have the correct temperament and health.

remysdobys

Yes NOW there are generations and generations of known dogs in the pedigrees but a breeder at some point had to start with untested dogs. The same would have to be done with whites. The whole inbreeding thing is kind of null to me at this point. We are so many generations away from those initial breedings. Many "quality" show lines if you go back as far as you would to the "single bitch" that started the whites, you would see inbreeding and very close linebreeding.

remysdobys

Your last statement I could not agree with more, but it has taken MANY years of knowledgeable breeding to produce the dogs that we see today. When these quality lines first started they had to outcross and inbreed and linebreed to produce the conformation, temperament, and health they are producing today.

My friends white doberman doesn't seem to squint anymore in the light than her red one does. I hope to get a video up soon to show this. The squinting could possibly be a health issue not connected to the gene that is causing them to be white but from poor breeding.

Jazi

Only for new breeds. In current breeds with standards and recognition, the breeder should start with known lineages. It is actually possible to become a breeder without becoming a BYB.

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remysdobys

Part of a new breeders starting should be known lineage but I don't see a problem with using an "unknown" one if its health and temperament are good and you are willing to put the time and effort into producing quality dogs and culling (spaying and neutering) the one that don't meet the mark.

VZ-Doberman

Wrong. They were and still are protectors. And can do that job if they have the correct temperament and conformation.

That particular trait has been lost. And I wonder why? When I walk I certainly do have him there to protect me. His ability to assess a threat is impressive. His ability to defend is beyond impressive. So, yes, your assumption as to what I use him for is incorrect.

Yes, I agree, you are missing how albino dobes cannot perform the today duties of a doberman. I have repeatedly explained that to you but still you insist that it doesn't matter.

GingerGunlock

Bold mine.

"Call no dog healthy until he is dead."


(paraphrased from Herodotus: "Call no man happy until he is dead.")

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remysdobys

BTW VZ-Doberman I appreciate your none snide non cynical approach to me. I realize that you completely disagree with what I am still on the fence about, but I appreciate you talking to me like a civil adult.

Jazi

How do you know that the health is good if you don't test?
How do you know it's the proper temperament if you don't title for breed-appropriate titles?
How do you know it's conformationally correct if you don't compete in shows?
How do you know that you might have a fluke dog in a byb pedigree that is absolutely fine, but will produce similar dogs to it's lineage in terms or health, conformation, or temperament if you don't know pedigree to begin with?

How do you know you're producing quality if you reject the usual measurements of quality?

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VZ-Doberman

A health issue causing a dog to squint would certainly be something a vet visit would/could fix. On the other hand, a squinting problem associated with being an albino is not fixable.

remysdobys

A white doberman can be a protector. And I realize they need the proper conformation and temperament to do that but I don't agree that color has anything to do with that.

When my friend walks she takes her mutt as protection to. Any dog can be used for protection. And he has been trained in obedience, defensive, and offensive training by a guy near I believe Birmingham, AL whose name is Ralph. He doesn't have the markings or look of a doberman but he is just as intuitive and intelligent as any dog I have ever seen.

Nothing you have said has in my OPINION proven that they can't perform their duties. THEY NEED SUNSCREEN- so do fair skin cops. THEY SQUINT IN THE SUN- so do most people with blue eyes and there are many cops out there with blue eyes. Just because they squint doesn't mean other cops are better than they are.

remysdobys

You can only breed with so much certainty no matter what. There is always something from the past popping up aka dilutes, whites, and health issues. Yes you know with more certainty that those will not pop up but there is always a risk. No you aren't going to be able to consistently produce quality dogs in a couple of years but over time you could.

remysdobys

I agree but we don't know which problem it is as of yet. Seeing as there ARE whites that don't squint more than a "accepted" color.

VZ-Doberman

A white doberman in sunlight would be at a serious disadvantage. You must see to be able to protect or do other duties.

You keep comparing people to dogs. Like I said, apples and oranges.

I'm not saying this to be snide, but with each post you sound more and more like the bybs that come here to defend the indefensible.

remysdobys

All right well let me say and post this so people don't ASSUME that I am slinking away. I will be on the road for the next few days and when not driving will be sleeping mostly so won't have time to come on and respond. I promise I am not slinking away and will respond to posts that happen while I am gone. I am appreciating the debates and picking of brains.

remysdobys

And as I have said. I PERSONALLY have met a white that didn't really squint. NOT heard of one SAW one.