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Old 12-06-2012, 11:04 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgileDobe View Post
Some interesting statistics about WZ and Albino registration. Keep in mind this only pertains to dogs who are registered, and does not include a rather large number of all dobes (in all colors) who go unregistered.

In 2011:
9,142 dobermans were registered with the AKC with 3,016 Litters registered. In that same time frame there were 2,199 Dobermans registered who were descendants of the original Albino.

Therefore- 2199 WZ AKC registered Dobermans in 2011 / 9,142 total AKC registered Dobes in 2011 = 24% WZ
1 in 4 Dobermans registered now days are WZ (albinos or potential carriers).

2011 WZ registered dogs broken down by color:
123 ALBINO (6%)
1096 BLACK (50%)
233 BLUE (11%)
145 FAWN (7%)
602 RED (27%)

Albinos account for only about ~1.5% of total doberman registrations, but we have no idea what percentage of the other WZ dogs carry the mutation for Albinism.

I have a theory/idea and it seems to be supported by science and my limited exposure/observance of albinos. I have yet to see or look at pictures of an albino doberman who suffers from CDA (Color Dilution Alopecia). I can't say I have seen all the albinos out there or have researched this heavily, but I can't find anything to the contrary. Albinism prevents the expression of pigment, aka the absence of color. Thus an albino doberman could be any one of the 4 recognized colors genetically.

Color Dilution Alopecia is caused by clumping of the pigment molecules in the hair shaft. The clumping distorts the hair shaft and causes damage to the hair follicle over time. This is where the Albinism comes in, we know there are albinos who are Blue and Fawn genetically, but they don't seem to have problems with CDA. If there is no pigment to distort the hair shaft, they can't have CDA. Theoretically speaking these albino dogs who are Blue and Fawn genetically would have the same rate of CDA as their non-albino counterparts if there was pigment in the hair to cause CDA. That doesn't appear to be the case though. I haven't seen a single Albino doberman exhibiting signs of CDA.

You can't have CDA without pigment. No pigment, means no CDA. Just my $0.02

Very cool stats - and I will add my personal experience with many albino's is that most seem to have a very thick coat not at all like the blacks and reds

I can't find a picture of Rogan that shows how thick his coat was you can kind of see it in this one



I'll try to get a picture of Degas's coat this weekend
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:11 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
I agree that labeling a breeder reputable is very subjective. Orginally I only considered a breeder reputable if he or she was breeding to obtain the optimum in health and conformation to show the dog, but I have realized over time there are people that may not breed for the AKC standard but breed for a particular look that they like and breed for health as well. I don't see them as not being reputable just because they aren't making a dog look like what an organization says it should look like.
Remy, you said that you didn't understand why people need to follow club's rules like the DPCA and AKC. Why breeders just can't breed for what traits they like, be it color or size or look in general.

The standard is there for a reason. It keeps Doberman looking like Dobermans. If you have one breeder breeding solid Dobes,and oversized Dobes, eventually they won't look like Dobermans anymore, they will end up looking like mutts (nothing wrong with mutts though). Purebred dogs have specific looks and temperaments, it's what sets them apart from other breeds.

This is a good example, www.GarretsDobermans.com They claim to breed family pets for temperament, not for conformation. On their homepage, look at Ella. Sure she looks like a Doberman, but not an exceptional one. Odd color eyes, bad facial and chest markings. But still a Doberman.

But if you keep breeding away from the standard, this is what you could end up with: http://http://www.garrettsdobermans.com/amb1_FM_OG.html
According to Garrets, it's a solid Fawn Doberman, with others like it in the litter. Sold by a breeder as a purebred Dobe, and I'm assuming registered as one. Can you honestly tell me that looks like a Doberman? I'm hoping it was sired by a mutt, but it's at least half Doberman, and looks nothing like one.

Without parent clubs setting a standard that breeders can follow, you will end up like dogs that look nothing like the purebred breeds we recognize.

I can't comment on the Albino issue, since I don't know much about it from a scientific viewpoint.

Last edited by Nynaeve; 12-07-2012 at 01:14 AM..
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:26 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
Maybe I miss read her website but from what I read she has been sending hairs of white albinos for them to look at to try and help figure out what the gene is. She states on her website that right now the general scientific thought is that they are partial albinoids.
"The question had once and for all been proven these dogs were not White but indeed Tyrosine positive Albinos."

Albino Doberman History
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:50 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobejazz View Post
Very cool stats - and I will add my personal experience with many albino's is that most seem to have a very thick coat not at all like the blacks and reds

I can't find a picture of Rogan that shows how thick his coat was you can kind of see it in this one



I'll try to get a picture of Degas's coat this weekend
Ahhh, Dobejazz, Rogan looks to be adorable and so typically doberman. Parker has a thing for carrying his lease around too.

I am sorry you lost Rogan so early, must have been heartbreaking.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:42 PM   #80 (permalink)
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OP, just so you know, in Florida there are 3 albino dobermen on Petfinder right now. If you wanted one because of the colour you do have options that everyone can agree is ethical.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:56 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchworkRobot View Post
Well crud, I read some more and have a question. I'm getting pulled in =\


Can you please link me (though I'm sure more than just I are curious) to reputable breeders of dobermans that breed whites because I absolutely cannot think of any.
Also, what makes a breeder reputable in your eyes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
I will have to get the links when I get home of the one that I have read the most from. I consider someone reputable if they are doing their do diligence when it comes to breeding and health testing. Ethical breeding like not constantly breeding a female. Performing health tests on their dogs and when it comes to the whites do everything in their power to prove out the genetics of it one way or another.

Ummmmm.... Am I the only person still waiting to see this??? I would love to see these reputable breeders as the one provided obviously didn't make the cut

Last edited by Sharly; 12-07-2012 at 04:58 PM..
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:16 PM   #82 (permalink)
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These types always slink away when facts are presented and specific questions are asked--about their indefensible stance.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:05 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nynaeve View Post
Remy, you said that you didn't understand why people need to follow club's rules like the DPCA and AKC. Why breeders just can't breed for what traits they like, be it color or size or look in general.

The standard is there for a reason. It keeps Doberman looking like Dobermans. If you have one breeder breeding solid Dobes,and oversized Dobes, eventually they won't look like Dobermans anymore, they will end up looking like mutts (nothing wrong with mutts though). Purebred dogs have specific looks and temperaments, it's what sets them apart from other breeds.

This is a good example, www.GarretsDobermans.com They claim to breed family pets for temperament, not for conformation. On their homepage, look at Ella. Sure she looks like a Doberman, but not an exceptional one. Odd color eyes, bad facial and chest markings. But still a Doberman.

But if you keep breeding away from the standard, this is what you could end up with: http://http://www.garrettsdobermans.com/amb1_FM_OG.html
According to Garrets, it's a solid Fawn Doberman, with others like it in the litter. Sold by a breeder as a purebred Dobe, and I'm assuming registered as one. Can you honestly tell me that looks like a Doberman? I'm hoping it was sired by a mutt, but it's at least half Doberman, and looks nothing like one.

Without parent clubs setting a standard that breeders can follow, you will end up like dogs that look nothing like the purebred breeds we recognize.

I can't comment on the Albino issue, since I don't know much about it from a scientific viewpoint.
I agree with some of what you said. The standard is there to tell you what the dog is meant to look like, but what if that isn't a persons idea of what a perfect doberman looks like. I don't know any breeders that breed for a specific trait that is outside of the standard on dobermans. That is why I used the example of boxers. Some people here in the states breed closer to the German or English standard or somewhere in between because that is what they feel like.

The Garrett's do not appear to be breeding for anything other than temperament. I do not agree with that type of breeding because as we all know there is more to a dog than just its temperament.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:08 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adara View Post
"The question had once and for all been proven these dogs were not White but indeed Tyrosine positive Albinos."

Albino Doberman History
That statement is her opinon.

The quote is "I would agree with Dr. Patterson's suggestions (1982) that this is probably a mutation in the C series. I believe it is an albino, although not the classical pink-eyed, tyrosine negative animal which we associate with this term. They are phototypic and I believe there is little disagreement with this statement.

The quote says he agrees with a SUGGESTION that it is PROBABLY a mutation in the C series. That had not and still has not been proven.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:10 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyssaN View Post
OP, just so you know, in Florida there are 3 albino dobermen on Petfinder right now. If you wanted one because of the colour you do have options that everyone can agree is ethical.
I have not said that I am buying one. I am doing research into dobermans in general and being as TO ME the white dobermans are beautiful. I am researching them. I do not plan to buy one anytime soon. I probably won't get a doberman in general for a while because the three colors that happen to be favorite to me are all controversial: white, fawn, and blue.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:13 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sharly View Post
Ummmmm.... Am I the only person still waiting to see this??? I would love to see these reputable breeders as the one provided obviously didn't make the cut
I am out of town on business so can not get to my personal computer where all my research is. I will be getting it up as soon as I can. I didn't realize I would get quick response that I did. I should have waited to post until I was at home and had my research on me. Everything I have been putting on this thread has been from memory.

And I have not learned much from this thread as of yet. There have been some good things brought up about my statements that I can't wait to get home and research and some articles have been given to me that are definitely interesting.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:15 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
These types always slink away when facts are presented and specific questions are asked--about their indefensible stance.
I have not slunk away. I have a life and can't spend all day on here. And could you please show me the FACTS that have been presented that are completely provable? And I have responded to every SPECIFIC question that has been posted on here. But there are many times that I have responded and never got a response in return. Am I to take it that that person slunk away because they had an indefensible stance?
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:34 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
I have not slunk away. I have a life and can't spend all day on here. And could you please show me the FACTS that have been presented that are completely provable? And I have responded to every SPECIFIC question that has been posted on here. But there are many times that I have responded and never got a response in return. Am I to take it that that person slunk away because they had an indefensible stance?
I believe there was a request that you link to the specific scientific research and health testing that albino Doberman breeders are participating in. Apologies, I don't recall having seen that answer.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:39 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GingerGunlock View Post
I believe there was a request that you link to the specific scientific research and health testing that albino Doberman breeders are participating in. Apologies, I don't recall having seen that answer.
I guess I didn't quote to the question but this was in one of my responses. I thought by saying I like to see those tests and that is one of the things that makes them reputable in my opinion would show that was the tests they were performing.

As for what tests I like to see. I will probably get some spelling on OFA, vWd, CERF are the three that I can think of right off the top of my head. When it comes to the white dobermans, I do think that hair samples should be sent to the scientist doing research on them. The more they have to experiment on the sooner we can have a scientific answer.

And as I stated a few posts up as soon as I get home I will get the links and stuff from my computer.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:56 PM   #90 (permalink)
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I guess I misunderstood. I read as though you had been in discussion with breeders who had claimed to be involved with scientific testing specifically regarding albinism in Dobermans.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:57 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
I agree with some of what you said. The standard is there to tell you what the dog is meant to look like, but what if that isn't a persons idea of what a perfect doberman looks like. I don't know any breeders that breed for a specific trait that is outside of the standard on dobermans. That is why I used the example of boxers. Some people here in the states breed closer to the German or English standard or somewhere in between because that is what they feel like.

The Garrett's do not appear to be breeding for anything other than temperament. I do not agree with that type of breeding because as we all know there is more to a dog than just its temperament.
The standard is the blueprint. One only need to read the "blueprint" to breed what the doberman is meant to be. You may not know of any breeders who breed for a specific trait that is outside the standard but you only need to look at the websites of many of the bybs who concentrate on size or albino. These are the breeders who don't understand the standard or don't care. Because of their refusal to breed to standard their dogs have structural problems/temperament problems that preclude them from doing the job they were meant to do. This is a working breed. When a breeder concentrates on merely generating income from breeding instead of breeding to improve, the damage to the breed is serious.

As to the Garretts....The temperament that they tout on the website is not the true doberman temperament. The don't compete nor test their breeding stocks' temperament. Again, they breed to their own whim, certainly not to the standard. Whether you breed temperament poor dogs/conformation poor dogs/unhealthy dogs, you do damage to the overall well being of the breed.

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Old 12-07-2012, 08:20 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GingerGunlock View Post
I guess I misunderstood. I read as though you had been in discussion with breeders who had claimed to be involved with scientific testing specifically regarding albinism in Dobermans.
Yes that is what I meant, but the main thing they can do right now is hair test since most owners don't want their dogs poked and prodded all the time.

I would like more tests to be done to help prove one way or another, but I do understand not wanting your dog to be an experiment. On that note, I do agree with something mentioned earlier, if you are not willing to put the money and effort into proving one way or another then you shouldn't breed for it.

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Old 12-07-2012, 08:23 PM   #93 (permalink)
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10 Straight Facts About Albino Animals | Scienceray

I found this interesting especially the fact of:
Albinos are generally as healthy as the rest of their species with normal growth and development as well as capability of reproduction.

As one of the big things against the white doberman is that it is not as healthy as a normal doberman. A scientific website refutes that statement. Not an opinion. A scientific fact found from years of researching albino animals.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:33 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
I agree with some of what you said. The standard is there to tell you what the dog is meant to look like, but what if that isn't a persons idea of what a perfect doberman looks like. I don't know any breeders that breed for a specific trait that is outside of the standard on dobermans. That is why I used the example of boxers. Some people here in the states breed closer to the German or English standard or somewhere in between because that is what they feel like.

The Garrett's do not appear to be breeding for anything other than temperament. I do not agree with that type of breeding because as we all know there is more to a dog than just its temperament.
Yes you do. All these albino breeders you are looking at are all breeding outside the standard. And the ones who breed solid colored Dobes, like the one I referenced earlier. So are the ones who bred oversized Dobermans (often called superior sized, king Dobermans, or warlock dobermans by their greedy breeders).

The albino breeders only breed for color, just like the Garrets only breed for temperament. How is that different? I have never seen one who titles (conformation or working titles) and health tests their dogs.

Vz, you said it better than I did.

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Old 12-07-2012, 08:40 PM   #95 (permalink)
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I have a white/albino Doberman! But I got him from a rescue in Sept. I would recommend you do the same. But only because I don't personally agree with getting a dog from a breeder when there are so many dogs in rescues and in animal control looking for homes. But that's my personal preference.

In my limited experience with my Doberman he is a great dog but can't see very well in bright sunlight. So take that into consideration. His eyes are basically squinted shut when it's sunny which means only going to the dog park when it's cloudy or later in the day. If you want a dog to be able to accompany you everywhere like I do, it's something to consider. You also have to put sunblock on them. I'm not going to risk him getting skin cancer because I was irresponsible. Think about a pale person of Irish or German decent or a red head going out without sunblock...they wouldn't do it. Same with the dog.

I've taken Hades to obedience and he did great. He's a great dog so far and although he may have health issues later so might my border collie mix or any other dog you get. It's just something you have to expect any time you care for a living being.

I will warn you I get stopped EVERYWHERE i go by people wanting to know what kind of dog he is. Dog park, walking, petsmart. I hope you like talking to people. Most common guesses are Great Dane, Weimaraner...never Dobe. When I tell them, they say he's beautiful which he is. But I think all dogs are amazing so I might be biased.

While I don't agree with whites/albinos being bred due to health issues (I feel the same about dilutes) I definitely agree with you rescuing one! If you are as passionate as you sound about your future dog imagine the great life you could give a white/albino dobe who ended up in a rescue! Recycled doggies are the best!

And whatever you do DO NOT GET ONE FROM WWW.WHITEDOBERMANPUPPIES.COM those people are the scum of the earth and the most irresponsible breeders I've ever encountered.

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Old 12-07-2012, 08:50 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Nynaeve View Post
Yes you do. All these albino breeders you are looking at are all breeding outside the standard. And the ones who breed solid colored Dobes, like the one I referenced earlier. So are the ones who bred oversized Dobermans (often called superior sized, king Dobermans, or warlock dobermans by their greedy breeders).

The albino breeders only breed for color, just like the Garrets only breed for temperament. How is that different? I have never seen one who titles (conformation or working titles) and health tests their dogs.

Vz, you said it better than I did.
I have never said I agree with they way they are testing. I have actually put out the question, "What if someone bred whites to conformity other than color as well as for temperament and health?" There are white dobermans that have working titles. The main one I can remember is called Flash.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:57 PM   #97 (permalink)
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I have never said I agree with they way they are testing. I have actually put out the question, "What if someone bred whites to conformity other than color as well as for temperament and health?" There are white dobermans that have working titles. The main one I can remember is called Flash.
Even if a white Dobe has titles, and all the health testing, it's still not reputable to breed them.
First, in breeding them, you are not breeding within the standard.
Second, no reputable breeder would breed to a albino, so only half of a potential puppy's parents would be titled and tested.
Third, you breed to a pedigree, not just that one dog. Since no reputable breeder breeds albinos, you will have a dog with a pedigree full of untitled and untested dogs, with no real knowledge of their ancestors temperament, health or longevity.

And my previous comment still stands, if you don't agree with people breeding just for temperament, then logically you should have issues with breding only for color.

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Old 12-07-2012, 08:58 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DobeAndBorderCollie View Post
I have a white/albino Doberman! But I got him from a rescue in Sept. I would recommend you do the same. But only because I don't personally agree with getting a dog from a breeder when there are so many dogs in rescues and in animal control looking for homes. But that's my personal preference.

In my limited experience with my Doberman he is a great dog but can't see very well in bright sunlight. So take that into consideration. His eyes are basically squinted shut when it's sunny which means only going to the dog park when it's cloudy or later in the day. If you want a dog to be able to accompany you everywhere like I do, it's something to consider. You also have to put sunblock on them. I'm not going to risk him getting skin cancer because I was irresponsible. Think about a pale person of Irish or German decent or a red head going out without sunblock...they wouldn't do it. Same with the dog.

I've taken Hades to obedience and he did great. He's a great dog so far and although he may have health issues later so might my border collie mix or any other dog you get. It's just something you have to expect any time you care for a living being.

I will warn you I get stopped EVERYWHERE i go by people wanting to know what kind of dog he is. Dog park, walking, petsmart. I hope you like talking to people. Most common guesses are Great Dane, Weimaraner...never Dobe. When I tell them, they say he's beautiful which he is. But I think all dogs are amazing so I might be biased.

While I don't agree with whites/albinos being bred due to health issues (I feel the same about dilutes) I definitely agree with you rescuing one! If you are as passionate as you sound about your future dog imagine the great life you could give a white/albino dobe who ended up in a rescue! Recycled doggies are the best!

And whatever you do DO NOT GET ONE FROM White Doberman Pinscher Puppies for Sale! those people are the scum of the earth and the most irresponsible breeders I've ever encountered.

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Thanks for the testimonial about your dog. I do realize there are the extra duties of sunscreen and like that when having a white doberman, but like you said it is like someone with fair skin needing to do the same. Whenever I take my niece anywhere outside when it is sunny I have to put sunscreen on her, it doesn't feel like a burden just something that needs to be done like combing my hair.

I think one of the main issues with not recognizing them as dobermans is no one is breeding them to conform to the structural standard of a doberman. There will always be people who aren't sure, but my friend who has a blue that is very silvery people always think it is a weim.

I feel that I will end up in the same camp as you on dilutes being the same as whites if anything is ever proven out negatively about either one. To me squinting or possibility of getting sunburns are not negatives. I wish I could find the site but it was an article from a vet about white boxers and how they can be prone to sunburn as well but in his article he pointed out that any animal with white short hair is prone to sunburn just as someone with fair skin is.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:06 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
I have never said I agree with they way they are testing. I have actually put out the question, "What if someone bred whites to conformity other than color as well as for temperament and health?" There are white dobermans that have working titles. The main one I can remember is called Flash.
You would still have the albino problems that would prevent the dog from doing what a doberman is bred for. These limitations would preclude it from any kind of outdoor work.

The poster above explained very well what he must do for his guy when he goes out.

What working titles are you referring to?
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:06 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Nynaeve View Post
Even if a white Dobe has titles, and all the health testing, it's still not reputable to breed them.
First, in breeding them, you are not breeding within the standard.
Second, no reputable breeder would breed to a albino, so only half of a potential puppy's parents would be titled and tested.
Third, you breed to a pedigree, not just that one dog. Since no reputable breeder breeds albinos, you will have a dog with a pedigree full of untitled and untested dogs, with no real knowledge of their ancestors temperament, health or longevity.
They are not within standard because people pushed for them to be a disqualifying color. Every new color that pops up on a dog has a strong contigency against it.

Scientific studies show that in mammal breedings 1 in 10,000 are albinos in birds it is even higher at 1 in 1,767. Albinos exist in all species of animals and science has shown that hey are just as healthy as normal colored animals. Maybe the albinos we have now don't fit the structural standard but who is to say someone can't spend years breeding in good lines and producing properly structured ones?

Maybe no breeder that you consider reputable would breed to an albino but what if someone buought a couple of show quality studs and showed them and tested them and then bred them to a couple of albino bitches. Then the z factor offspring that showed show potential showed and tested them and culled (spayed or neutered) the other offspring. And over time could successful produce quality line white dobermans. Any show breeder has spent years getting to the point they have to consistently produce the quality of dogs that they do. It didnt just happen in a few breedings and if it did it is because they are really just using someone elses lines.
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