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Old 12-06-2012, 01:53 AM   #51 (permalink)
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The whole tail docking ear cropping is another example. They make theirs not be able to have it but we say you can have either but favor the crops. Why are we right and they wrong? Neither group is wrong, in my opinion, because it is an OPION
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:01 AM   #52 (permalink)
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But who is to say our standard is right? It isn't the same as the German standard. A standard is an OPINION of a group of people. The same people who for right now won't agree to restrict the registration of White and Z factor dobermans. If they think it is such a bad thing why don't they restrict the registration on them to cut back on the demand for them. I know there would still be demand but it definitely would cut it down some. They don't do it because as of right now there is not enough proof that it is bad for the breed, but argument could be made very strongly that blues and fawns are bad for the breed. Breed standards do change, so if the breed standard is perfect then why would it ever need to be changed? So just because the opinion of the AKC says they are bad then that means they are? So what about in the case of pomeranians? Merles are proven to have health issues and if bred to each other have huge issues, but they are allowed. So it is ok for a known color to have issues but one that is still being tested and has proof both ways not to be just because a group of people says? Sorry I see some bad logic in that reasoning. I am not saying that they should be able to be shown. I am just saying all the bashing on them until proper evidence comes to light is not good.

Once again. I don't favor one side over the other yet there is just nobody else standing up for the other side right now so I am bringing up points that are valid in my opinion and others as well (some that are against whites still feel that some of these points are valid and hope that they are discredited soon)
When you have a disagreement between standards of countries, that is when founder words need to be relied on. I am no dobe history buff so I don't know what the founder had to say on colors. I know that his doberman was nothing like our current doberman in temperament and that he cropped and docked his dogs. Demand for the old temperament is gone, but working ability should still be there. C&D debate is as old as time and will not see a resolution in the near future.

I don't know pomeranians at all. I'm not a little dog person. I know very little about the merle gene, however I do know that potential health problems with double merles can be avoided by not breeding to merle dogs, and as far as I'm aware there are little health problems associated with only one copy of the gene. Someone who is knowledgeable on merle please correct me if I'm wrong. Little dogs have their own problems currently what with the designer breeds catching on and many colors being "discovered" that were nonexistent in the breeds before. I have read a few blogs speaking to the controversy over merle, so I don't think the risks have gone unnoticed, and I've seen a few breeders of herding dogs that can be merle speak out against AKC's allowing the pattern.

Dilutes on the other hand don't have the internal issues double merles are supposed to be having (or rather, dilution doesn't cause them. they can still have internal issues due to other genes), just skin and coat issues. Albinos are also supposed to be more prone to genetic issues than your plain dilutes as well, and that is said to be true in all animals not just dobes. Even albino snakes (since you said you know BP morphs, funny enough that's where my genetic knowledge lies) come with a warning on sensitivities and genetic weakness. Ironically, since we're on the topic of snakes, albino snakes are what made me realize that albinos lack black pigment, not all pigment. Breeders making the claim that albinos are actually cream/white are forgetting that dobes have more than just black pigment on them. A ball python is also black and brown, and when it's albino it's white and yellow/cream (unless it's an albino super black/albino super cinny, but those sometimes have cream streaks too, or unless it's a paradox albino but those are weird and may be an incubation error since they don't breed true). Albino dobes may very well have some cream markings, but that doesn't make them not albinos. It's a common argument that I see in albino defenders in all animals and sadly it is very incorrect.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:30 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
But who is to say our standard is right? It isn't the same as the German standard. A standard is an OPINION of a group of people. The same people who for right now won't agree to restrict the registration of White and Z factor dobermans. If they think it is such a bad thing why don't they restrict the registration on them to cut back on the demand for them. I know there would still be demand but it definitely would cut it down some. They don't do it because as of right now there is not enough proof that it is bad for the breed, but argument could be made very strongly that blues and fawns are bad for the breed. Breed standards do change, so if the breed standard is perfect then why would it ever need to be changed? So just because the opinion of the AKC says they are bad then that means they are? So what about in the case of pomeranians? Merles are proven to have health issues and if bred to each other have huge issues, but they are allowed. So it is ok for a known color to have issues but one that is still being tested and has proof both ways not to be just because a group of people says? Sorry I see some bad logic in that reasoning. I am not saying that they should be able to be shown. I am just saying all the bashing on them until proper evidence comes to light is not good.

Once again. I don't favor one side over the other yet there is just nobody else standing up for the other side right now so I am bringing up points that are valid in my opinion and others as well (some that are against whites still feel that some of these points are valid and hope that they are discredited soon)

The DPCA sets the breed standard. The AKC registers purebred dogs of purebred parents, regardless of their conformation or quality. The DPCA would love for the AKC to refuse to register albino dobermans, but cannot force them to do so. AKC registration is in no way a "stamp of approval."




And if I recall correctly, the only "research" Mijnschatje was doing was having her dogs DNA tested for color, which tells her the color they would have been if not masked by the albino gene, and then trying to twist that document to use as "proof" the dogs aren't albino. The work done by the scientists is valid, but her purported claims and conclusions are totally unsupported by the research itself.

Please feel free to link me to any other research she has participated in.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:38 AM   #54 (permalink)
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I am sorry if what I put came off as offensive I did not mean that in anyway. I have just read many threads on this subject and none of the replies seem to be helpful or factual just people being condescending. I truly am trying to find out as much as I can on these issues.
If you've read many threads on the subject and you deem them not helpful or factual I suggest you reread them. Perhaps even a trip to the DPCA website could enlighten you.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:44 AM   #55 (permalink)
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When you have a disagreement between standards of countries, that is when founder words need to be relied on. I am no dobe history buff so I don't know what the founder had to say on colors. I know that his doberman was nothing like our current doberman in temperament and that he cropped and docked his dogs. Demand for the old temperament is gone, but working ability should still be there. C&D debate is as old as time and will not see a resolution in the near future.

I don't know pomeranians at all. I'm not a little dog person. I know very little about the merle gene, however I do know that potential health problems with double merles can be avoided by not breeding to merle dogs, and as far as I'm aware there are little health problems associated with only one copy of the gene. Someone who is knowledgeable on merle please correct me if I'm wrong. Little dogs have their own problems currently what with the designer breeds catching on and many colors being "discovered" that were nonexistent in the breeds before. I have read a few blogs speaking to the controversy over merle, so I don't think the risks have gone unnoticed, and I've seen a few breeders of herding dogs that can be merle speak out against AKC's allowing the pattern.

Dilutes on the other hand don't have the internal issues double merles are supposed to be having (or rather, dilution doesn't cause them. they can still have internal issues due to other genes), just skin and coat issues. Albinos are also supposed to be more prone to genetic issues than your plain dilutes as well, and that is said to be true in all animals not just dobes. Even albino snakes (since you said you know BP morphs, funny enough that's where my genetic knowledge lies) come with a warning on sensitivities and genetic weakness. Ironically, since we're on the topic of snakes, albino snakes are what made me realize that albinos lack black pigment, not all pigment. Breeders making the claim that albinos are actually cream/white are forgetting that dobes have more than just black pigment on them. A ball python is also black and brown, and when it's albino it's white and yellow/cream (unless it's an albino super black/albino super cinny, but those sometimes have cream streaks too, or unless it's a paradox albino but those are weird and may be an incubation error since they don't breed true). Albino dobes may very well have some cream markings, but that doesn't make them not albinos. It's a common argument that I see in albino defenders in all animals and sadly it is very incorrect.
As for the original founders take on color, I have not found anything that he has said on it, but one of the first champions ever was a dominantly black male. Yet we say they have to have specific markings. So if it was allowed then why do we have restrictions on markings now? It is because someone decided at some point that that type of markings looked best. Color and markings have little to do with the working ability of a dog which is what conformation is really supposed to be proving. That your dog has the proper structure to perform the duty that it was bred to do, but if we are going to go into that then shouldn't a "reputable" breeder be one that not only shows their dogs but also puts them through the working trials as well to prove that they can perform the job they were bred to do? I mean just because I put a pocket protector and thick glasses on doesn't necessarily mean that I am smart. Just because a dog has the "right look" doesn't mean that it is able to perform its duties. I do understand that the C&D debate will go on forever probably but I was just pointing out people change their opinions on things because that is what they feel like doing. Cropping and docking in my opinion is something that should be done if you want to stick to what an actual breed standard should be because that is what the founder did and found most beneficial for the dog to be able to perform its duties.

The merle gene is mostly if you breed two together but the problem with it is it doesn't always do well with some of the other colors in the case of a dog can carry the merle gene and not look like a merle, so unless you know the ancestory of your dogs then breeding a merle you are always running a risk. I know that the risks have not gone unnoticed as for the first few years of my research into pomeranians for a friend merles were pretty much banned from the show ring. Not by the AKC organization but by judges not judging them fairly. There is now quite a few merles that are doing well in the show ring because over time responsible breeders have proven that breeding them can be done with no more risk than any other color as long as you are knowledgeable about their background. Going back to ball pythons the spider gene is connected with what I think they call a wobble but there are some lines of spiders that now have for generations not produced any spiders with that wobble. For a long while people went on and on about how that gene of snake should not be bred and people were being irresponsible breeding it, but knowledgeable breeders didn't listen and now without the spider gene we wouldn't have some of the amazing colors and patterns of snakes that we do today. It took time and patience from some people to prove that just because some show signs doesn't mean that it can not be fixed.

You bring up that dilutes don't have internal issues like the merle I guess trying to say that they don't relate, but aren't most of the "issues" people have with white dobermans external ones as well? One of the main ones brought up is skin cancer. A study was done that showed that about 50% of ALL dogs of ALL breeds and ALL colors will get skin cancer. As for internal problems many albino animals are just as hardy as normal colored animals. Many scientist have stated over the years that the weakness in many albino animals is probably due to the small gene pool. One albino pops up and then many animals are made from that one animal, but over generations with proper breeding albinos have proven to be able to be just as healthy as normal colored animals.

I do understand your idea on the subject of albino with snakes being different colors and such. Because in snakes there are different forms of albinos as well as in other animals. Ball pythons have anery, axanthic, and albino. All of these are considered forms of albinoism because they all are missing a certain color of pigment. They are not completely absent of pigment, but I know of no mammal that is a true albino that is considered to have pigment. There are ones considered partial albinoids because they have yet to prove what is actually going on and being albino is the closest thing to what they think is causing it. In the case of the white doberman, a scientist at a college in California refers to them as blonde because the amount of pigment in them varies from dog to dog. The other reason they lean toward the fact that it is albino is because it is a recessive trait. Well dilute and reds are recessive traits as well. There are many genes that are recessive and over time these genes will "pop" up. It is definitely more prevalent in reptiles than mammals but does happen in mammals as well. My parents used to be show yorkie breeders but unlike many other breeders they did not feel that parti and chocolate yorkies are not purebred. Many tests have been done to prove that they are and it is just breeding over time that has caused these traits to pop up. Yorkies were at one point bred to Maltese to make better coats on them. Maltese are an all white breed so it comes to reason that at some point some white might pop up. White dobermans may prove to be albinos, but in my opinion that doesn't automatically make them inferior health wise. Much research and knowledgeable breeding would have to be done to prove that. The one "research" done on them so far to me was an epic fail that proved nothing other than the original people breeding albinos did not breed for temperament or health. All the babies from the research were black and had temperament issues. That didn't prove that whites have temperament issues that proved that those dogs in that research had temperament issues.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:49 AM   #56 (permalink)
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If you've read many threads on the subject and you deem them not helpful or factual I suggest you reread them. Perhaps even a trip to the DPCA website could enlighten you.
I have read everything on the DPCA website and there is very little scientific research shown. There are statements from doctors and scientist from years ago and opinions of people. There is the article by the lady who did the "study" on them, but very little factual provable information. Right now it is all opinions, because no scientist yet has been able to prove one way or another. If you could link me to threads on here that are not just people's opinions I would greatly appreciate it. The ones I have seen are just peoples opinions which ARE valid. Everyone's opinions matter and that is why I am asking for information, so I can continue to form my own opinion and not just go off what others are saying.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:52 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Leliel View Post
The DPCA sets the breed standard. The AKC registers purebred dogs of purebred parents, regardless of their conformation or quality. The DPCA would love for the AKC to refuse to register albino dobermans, but cannot force them to do so. AKC registration is in no way a "stamp of approval."




And if I recall correctly, the only "research" Mijnschatje was doing was having her dogs DNA tested for color, which tells her the color they would have been if not masked by the albino gene, and then trying to twist that document to use as "proof" the dogs aren't albino. The work done by the scientists is valid, but her purported claims and conclusions are totally unsupported by the research itself.

Please feel free to link me to any other research she has participated in.
Maybe I miss read her website but from what I read she has been sending hairs of white albinos for them to look at to try and help figure out what the gene is. She states on her website that right now the general scientific thought is that they are partial albinoids.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:07 AM   #58 (permalink)
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I don't understand why you want everyone who doesn't believe in breeding albinos to do all the research to prove their way is wrong. You should be talking to the albino breeders telling them they need to do all the footwork to prove their albinos are worthy. They have had what...over 30 years to do the research.

The cropping and docking issue is an animal rights issue. Europe's doberman breeders didn't decide not to crop, their governments decided it for them! So you're on the wrong trail there, too.

You say a lot, but a quite a bit of what you say is wrong...lot's of your statements are nothing other than albino breeders statements and beliefs. The people who breed albinos that I have noted have lacked an understanding of dog breeding, conformation and pretty well don't care where their pups go as long as they get the money. Actually, most seem on the lower end of the intelligence scale.

You say you haven't made up your mind, but I caught that you had in your first post, which was the reason for my first post.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:11 AM   #59 (permalink)
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I think you need to take a better look at the sources of your information. One of the first things I learned when being taught how to research was to evaluate your source. Is there really any surprise that someone breeding albinos for profit would be arguing that albinos should be bred?
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:29 AM   #60 (permalink)
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I don't understand why you want everyone who doesn't believe in breeding albinos to do all the research to prove their way is wrong. You should be talking to the albino breeders telling them they need to do all the footwork to prove their albinos are worthy. They have had what...over 30 years to do the research.

The cropping and docking issue is an animal rights issue. Europe's doberman breeders didn't decide not to crop, their governments decided it for them! So you're on the wrong trail there, too.

You say a lot, but a quite a bit of what you say is wrong...lot's of your statements are nothing other than albino breeders statements and beliefs. The people who breed albinos that I have noted have lacked an understanding of dog breeding, conformation and pretty well don't care where their pups go as long as they get the money. Actually, most seem on the lower end of the intelligence scale.

You say you haven't made up your mind, but I caught that you had in your first post, which was the reason for my first post.
I understand that people will use what they can to make their side better. I have not asked anyone to do any research for me. I have asked that if you have any that you show it to me. I have asked some of these breeders to give me what information that they have. I feel it is the responsibilites of both sides to prove the case one way or another. Maybe if the DPCA deemed it worthy enough to study it we would already have an answer, but they didn't feel it was worth the money and I can respect that on some levels because no matter what the outcome the side that was wrong will do everything in their power to say that they are wrong, but to me it would be worth the money to try and prove it right because there will be some people that you will sway them to your side because you did your do diligence. I do know that few of the breeders that breed whites know about conformation and temperament and like that, but I guarantee there are just as many if not more breeders of blacks and reds that have just as little knowledge. And I have not made up my mind like I stated, as it seems to people love only giving their opinions of what was said and not referring to everything, I am somewhat taking the side of the whites because no one else is and if I didn't it would once again turn into another thread of bashing and no facts.

If my statements are wrong then tell me and tell me why with something I can see that will change my opinion don't just give me your opinion. Jazi has brought to light somethings about my statement and I have had to rethink what I said because of what she said. I have appreciated what she has had to say in helping me form MY OPINION.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:32 AM   #61 (permalink)
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I think you need to take a better look at the sources of your information. One of the first things I learned when being taught how to research was to evaluate your source. Is there really any surprise that someone breeding albinos for profit would be arguing that albinos should be bred?
Of course they will use what information they can find to prove that whites should be bred since they want to breed them, but the same goes for people that don't think they should be bred. They will pick and choose what to bring to light to support their opinion. I am evaluating my sources and realizing that much of what they say is an opinion but some of it they have shown things that would help prove that. The same goes for both sides. There is no right or wrong answer yet because it has not scientifically been proven either way.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:01 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
As for the original founders take on color, I have not found anything that he has said on it, but one of the first champions ever was a dominantly black male. Yet we say they have to have specific markings. So if it was allowed then why do we have restrictions on markings now? It is because someone decided at some point that that type of markings looked best. Color and markings have little to do with the working ability of a dog which is what conformation is really supposed to be proving.

Original dogs are graded on working ability first, color second. When breeding working dogs, founders don't care if they have 8 paws and 3 legs and are purple with green polka dots if they can do the work well. I see a couple collie-headed merle GSDs in historical pictures, but that doesn't mean it's correct. I will have to contest coat and markings not affecting work ability though. Longhair "fluffies", "woolies", or "plush coats" are undesired in GSDs, corgis, huskies, and other working dogs. Aside from being the wrong "type" of longhair to make a difference, there are practical reasons such as a bad guy having a lot more to grab, the occasional lack of undercoat which does no good in the winter, and the wispier hair getting caught and tangled and matted in burrs and brush more easily. When talking about coat colors that commonly produce problems, such as dilutes, double merles, and albinos, markings certainly do affect working ability. Working dogs need to be healthy, after all. In addition, in a protection-based breed, darker or black markings and masks are highly desired because they produce a more intimidating and "strong" feel in the animal. Maskless GSDs look very different to their masked counterparts.

That your dog has the proper structure to perform the duty that it was bred to do, but if we are going to go into that then shouldn't a "reputable" breeder be one that not only shows their dogs but also puts them through the working trials as well to prove that they can perform the job they were bred to do?

Yes! There needs to be more dogs titled in both conformation and working ability. There are a few, I know of one that was recently posted down in the breeders section, and he is a stunning example of the breed and has the working titles to back up claims about his temperament. A well-bred dog needs to both "look like a" and "act like a". In some breeds this is very difficult because of a registry or breed club not sticking to either standard or founder words, and thus are rewarding incorrect dogs in either look or temperament. Show GSDs are regarded by many as an abomination. The pointer-esque working labradors frustrate people who breed stockier dogs with otter tails.

I mean just because I put a pocket protector and thick glasses on doesn't necessarily mean that I am smart. Just because a dog has the "right look" doesn't mean that it is able to perform its duties. I do understand that the C&D debate will go on forever probably but I was just pointing out people change their opinions on things because that is what they feel like doing. Cropping and docking in my opinion is something that should be done if you want to stick to what an actual breed standard should be because that is what the founder did and found most beneficial for the dog to be able to perform its duties.

The merle gene is mostly if you breed two together but the problem with it is it doesn't always do well with some of the other colors in the case of a dog can carry the merle gene and not look like a merle, so unless you know the ancestory of your dogs then breeding a merle you are always running a risk.

People who breed dogs without knowing their dog's ancestry are not considered by many to be reputable or ethical breeders. The founder himself is guilty of this, and many people nowadays would not have liked what he was doing, however he at least judged the dogs' working ability before mixing willy nilly.

I know that the risks have not gone unnoticed as for the first few years of my research into pomeranians for a friend merles were pretty much banned from the show ring. Not by the AKC organization but by judges not judging them fairly. There is now quite a few merles that are doing well in the show ring because over time responsible breeders have proven that breeding them can be done with no more risk than any other color as long as you are knowledgeable about their background. Going back to ball pythons the spider gene is connected with what I think they call a wobble but there are some lines of spiders that now have for generations not produced any spiders with that wobble.

Not quite. Spiders no matter what line will wobble and corkscrew when they are stressed. There are some experimental lines which have very little or unnoticeable wobble normally and it is only when they are severely stressed that you notice. It is a neurological issue and there are no right answers because spiders with little wobble can easily live out normal lives provided the correct owner. Quetzal, my normal, has a nearly unnoticeable wobble when he is severely stressed, so it's not restricted to the reduced morphs, but it is most common in them. I've only seen Q wobble twice; once when I terrified him by accident, he struck at me, and I dropped him, and the other when I was moving and had to pack up all of his "stuff" from his tank the night before. He roamed the cage corkscrewing slightly. No, he does not have IBD, as he would be dead by now months later. Q is what's known as a high gold normal, a dinker, something not able to be proven or breed true but looks pretty, and he comes from a pastel/normal pairing. Because dinkers have screwy genetics in the first place he might have a genetic deformity which causes the neurological issue that presents itself as wobble. Wobble, after all, is a symptom of multiple diagnosis all neurological in nature and not a diagnosis itself.

For a long while people went on and on about how that gene of snake should not be bred and people were being irresponsible breeding it, but knowledgeable breeders didn't listen and now without the spider gene we wouldn't have some of the amazing colors and patterns of snakes that we do today. It took time and patience from some people to prove that just because some show signs doesn't mean that it can not be fixed.

See above how it is not quite "fixed". You cannot fix something if the cause is unknown. All we know about the reduced morph wobble is that the reduced morphs (spiders, bandeds) are more commonly afflicted with an estimated 100% being affected in even just a small way. We know wobble is a neurological symptom in nature. We do not know what it is a symptom of for the "spider wobble". Inclusion Body Disease also causes wobble, but that will kill a BP in a month or so's time, and the cause of that virus is yet unknown but is said to be linked to mites. Incubation errors can also cause wobble and I know a handful of breeders who have a breeder holdback normal that they've named "Derpy" or "Herp Derp" or a variety of such that also show neurological damage and will wobble. URIs have been known to cause wobble, and frequent regurgitation, and severe starvation, and nonlethal injuries to the head. It is unlikely that they all have the same cause, especially when one is genetic and the others are environmental factors, but they are all signs of some sort of brain issue.

You bring up that dilutes don't have internal issues like the merle I guess trying to say that they don't relate, but aren't most of the "issues" people have with white dobermans external ones as well? One of the main ones brought up is skin cancer. A study was done that showed that about 50% of ALL dogs of ALL breeds and ALL colors will get skin cancer. As for internal problems many albino animals are just as hardy as normal colored animals. Many scientist have stated over the years that the weakness in many albino animals is probably due to the small gene pool. One albino pops up and then many animals are made from that one animal, but over generations with proper breeding albinos have proven to be able to be just as healthy as normal colored animals.

Skin, coat, and eye. Occasionally gastrointestinal issues have shown up. Photosensitivity. Those are what I know of. Depending on species and vet knowledge (especially in exotics), vets will warn albino owners of other likelihoods of genetic deformities and weaknesses as well. Just doesn't seem to be a good idea to me.

I do understand your idea on the subject of albino with snakes being different colors and such. Because in snakes there are different forms of albinos as well as in other animals. Ball pythons have anery, axanthic, and albino. All of these are considered forms of albinoism because they all are missing a certain color of pigment. They are not completely absent of pigment, but I know of no mammal that is a true albino that is considered to have pigment. There are ones considered partial albinoids because they have yet to prove what is actually going on and being albino is the closest thing to what they think is causing it.

Hedgehogs, mice, and rats are and are not considered albinos. Pink Eyed Whites, they're called in the pet trade. People feeding them call them albinos. Indeed, they can also have some cream markings as well. The Llhasa Apso in a few articles on albinism in dobes also has cream markings. My two PEW feeders have both ghost markings and (pee)stains which make them appear to be very light hooded champagnes. I thought I might have misjudged their color until I saw them playing pee-tag and get swiped down their back. And it doesn't wash off that well either.

My example with albino super black pastels is actually a decent one for this. Black pastel is called a co-dominant by snake people, incomplete dominant by science. It is similar to the merle gene in that it should show with one copy, but two copies produces something else as well. A "super" black pastel has two copies of the black pastel gene and appears to be a black snake (with a white belly). However, super black pastels (and super cinnamons, which are genetically similar) commonly have facial deformities such as duck bills and bug eyes which makes the quality of life for the snake debatable. When you add the photosensitivity and likelihood of cancers and gastrointestinal issues from the albino, you may get one genetically messed up snake. There's a reason snakes with obvious deformities are often culled.

Albino in BPs is known to cause some issues with fertility should it combine with certain other morphs as well. Caramel albinos usually die before they even hatch, and most of them hatch kinked. Some hatch so kinked up that they can barely move. Successful caramel albinos are frequently infertile. That hints at a fatal gene combination on either the caramel or the albino's part. Desert BPs are also frequently infertile without being combined with other morphs. Some colors are just no good, regardless of how nice they look on an animal.


In the case of the white doberman, a scientist at a college in California refers to them as blonde because the amount of pigment in them varies from dog to dog. The other reason they lean toward the fact that it is albino is because it is a recessive trait. Well dilute and reds are recessive traits as well. There are many genes that are recessive and over time these genes will "pop" up. It is definitely more prevalent in reptiles than mammals but does happen in mammals as well. My parents used to be show yorkie breeders but unlike many other breeders they did not feel that parti and chocolate yorkies are not purebred. Many tests have been done to prove that they are and it is just breeding over time that has caused these traits to pop up. Yorkies were at one point bred to Maltese to make better coats on them. Maltese are an all white breed so it comes to reason that at some point some white might pop up. White dobermans may prove to be albinos, but in my opinion that doesn't automatically make them inferior health wise. Much research and knowledgeable breeding would have to be done to prove that. The one "research" done on them so far to me was an epic fail that proved nothing other than the original people breeding albinos did not breed for temperament or health. All the babies from the research were black and had temperament issues. That didn't prove that whites have temperament issues that proved that those dogs in that research had temperament issues.

Yes, that is similar to the many incorrect colors "appearing" in little dog breeds today. I believe there is controversy over merle chihuahuas and min pins, I think there is still controversy over merle poms. Speaking of merle appearing where it shouldn't, pit bulls were never supposed to carry merle either. However in areas where hog dog mixes are common and catahoulas are also common, merle "pit bulls" began appearing. Hmmm, suspicious. The merle pitty breeders claim they're purebred, the various breed clubs remain skeptical. Blue/silver labs have begun appearing as well, but those look strangely similar to weims. Merle chihuahuas are likely chiweenies or a descendant of. I spotted a merle tamaskan on a tam forum, sadly that picture is now a broken link, and people there were up in arms over whether or not it was purebred. If someone somehow got a merle doberman, I think everyone on this site would be screaming, no matter how "pretty" it might be.
My response, in purple
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:02 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Is it doomsday yet?

I'm really starting to look forward to it..
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:19 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmit View Post


Is it doomsday yet?

I'm really starting to look forward to it..
You won't think that joke's so funny in two weeks...

Sighh, there's been so much fighting going on lately. It really cuts in people's time to post pictures of their dogs, which really cuts into my ability to look at puppy pictures and brighten my day during finals.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:07 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazi View Post
My response, in purple
Some awesome things for me to think about and look into. One right off the top of my head is that yes merles in pomeranians is still a very controversial issue with some people but it is really just the ones that were proven wrong. The first documented merle was a male that was genetically tested to be purebred pomeranian.

Thanks for the mind food
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:09 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyssaN View Post
You won't think that joke's so funny in two weeks...

Sighh, there's been so much fighting going on lately. It really cuts in people's time to post pictures of their dogs, which really cuts into my ability to look at puppy pictures and brighten my day during finals.
I do not feel that I am fighting. I am debating with or trying to debate with adults on an issue. It is the snide remarks and things that are not helpful to the topic at all that are "fighting" to me. Not that your remarks were. Jazi has and continues to bring up very valid points that have basis in fact and I greatly appreciate the information and insight she is giving on this issue.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:34 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Leliel View Post
The DPCA sets the breed standard. The AKC registers purebred dogs of purebred parents, regardless of their conformation or quality. The DPCA would love for the AKC to refuse to register albino dobermans, but cannot force them to do so. AKC registration is in no way a "stamp of approval."




And if I recall correctly, the only "research" Mijnschatje was doing was having her dogs DNA tested for color, which tells her the color they would have been if not masked by the albino gene, and then trying to twist that document to use as "proof" the dogs aren't albino. The work done by the scientists is valid, but her purported claims and conclusions are totally unsupported by the research itself.

Please feel free to link me to any other research she has participated in.
This post sums it up perfectly.

No idea why any of this is unclear, remysdobys.

Quote:
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I do not feel that I am fighting. I am debating with or trying to debate with adults on an issue. It is the snide remarks and things that are not helpful to the topic at all that are "fighting" to me. Not that your remarks were. Jazi has and continues to bring up very valid points that have basis in fact and I greatly appreciate the information and insight she is giving on this issue.
Is Jazi, then, the only one bringing up valid points?

Because I see links to actual research, and some very good factual posts here.

You, on the other hand, seem to be debating more from opinion and emotion. <shrug>

Your sources for forming your opinion aren't reliable, you aren't reading carefully the good information, and you're making assumptions and having gaps in logic.

If you feel you haven't earned respect for the viewpoint you are arguing on albino Doberman breeding, then come back armed with valid science, with actual cites on the studies, and do a better job of presenting your "case."

I'm not being facetious, even though making a rational case for this will be an impossible task for you, because, yes, these animals are albino--it appears to be a deleterious mutation for our breed, and DPCA nor the breed standard support it.

I would rescue an albino, under the right circumstances and providing I could care for it properly, just as I've rescued Dobermans who are blue, fawn, and red, over the years, but I get real weary of hearing idgit/half-baked rationalizations based on nonsense, as to why it's supposedly okay to breed for them.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:15 PM   #68 (permalink)
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"Many scientist have stated over the years that the weakness in many albino animals is probably due to the small gene pool. One albino pops up and then many animals are made from that one animal, but over generations with proper breeding albinos have proven to be able to be just as healthy as normal colored animals."

Please show exactly what your source is for this statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmit View Post


Is it doomsday yet?

I'm really starting to look forward to it..
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyssaN View Post
You won't think that joke's so funny in two weeks...

Sighh, there's been so much fighting going on lately. It really cuts in people's time to post pictures of their dogs, which really cuts into my ability to look at puppy pictures and brighten my day during finals.
Bwaaaaaaaawahahahahaah, good one AlyssaN. You made me bellylaugh!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
Some awesome things for me to think about and look into. One right off the top of my head is that yes merles in pomeranians is still a very controversial issue with some people but it is really just the ones that were proven wrong. The first documented merle was a male that was genetically tested to be purebred pomeranian.

Thanks for the mind food
I thought we were discussing albino dobermans? I notice you do seem to be dragging in a lot of other things.

Also a long time back you made a wrong statement about color. These albinos are actually a doberman color, but the albino gene masks the color they are born by not allowing it to express itself.

Where is doberkim when you need her???
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:52 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
Is Jazi, then, the only one bringing up valid points?

Because I see links to actual research, and some very good factual posts here.

You, on the other hand, seem to be debating more from opinion and emotion. <shrug>

Your sources for forming your opinion aren't reliable, you aren't reading carefully the good information, and you're making assumptions and having gaps in logic.

If you feel you haven't earned respect for the viewpoint you are arguing on albino Doberman breeding, then come back armed with valid science, with actual cites on the studies, and do a better job of presenting your "case."

I'm not being facetious, even though making a rational case for this will be an impossible task for you, because, yes, these animals are albino--it appears to be a deleterious mutation for our breed, and DPCA nor the breed standard support it.

I would rescue an albino, under the right circumstances and providing I could care for it properly, just as I've rescued Dobermans who are blue, fawn, and red, over the years, but I get real weary of hearing idgit/half-baked rationalizations based on nonsense, as to why it's supposedly okay to breed for them.
RFR said it well. I'm giving examples based on what I know about albinism and genetic maladies linked to color in exotics, specifically ball pythons since they were mentioned, and applying what is applicable to dogs. Apples to oranges a bit, but albinism is albinism and much of what is true about one albino in a species applies to another albino in another species. When it comes to knowing my genetics, I'm much more of an exotics person in that case and I'm relying on others to post facts and links to back me up or shoot me down which I've mentioned a couple times especially with albino, dilute, and merle controversy and founder words on color. I don't know this stuff and I don't claim to have breeder knowledge. I'm not a breeder, just a pet owner, so I only know what not to buy, not the intricate histories of the breed or the complex genetics linking color to health.

Sadly most of my morph knowledge is not posted in studies, because snake breeding politics is very different from dog breeding politics and most discoveries are posted in an informal format on an exotic forum, especially discoveries about deformaties and health issues. Large breeder sites often have lists of what color combinations make what, but they don't discuss the cons of breeding for said variation.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:14 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Those of us who have been in the breed for 10, 20, 30+ years, have already seen a boatload of people who think that they can argue the "albino" problem with a different twist.

I can tell you that no matter what you say or do, albinos (partial or full) are not desirable and never will be. They are a genetic misfit that should never be bred for in any species IMHO. I've seen many albino Dobermans in rescue and the majority of them have issues relating to eyesight in bright sunlight - which often affects their temperament, many also have skin issues. They also suffer from all of the effects of their lousy breed quality... which are really too numerous to list. I don't hate the dogs - they alone are innocent.... but what I think of their breeders cannot be stated in words here. "Scum" sums it up fairly well though.

I also agree with another poster who stated that the people who do breed albinos seem to have gotten a short straw (IMHO) when God was handing out brains. They just don't get "it" and probably never will - there is just something missing from their reasoning abilities and their sense of "Right and Wrong". Of course as always, this is just my opinion..... and I've come to this opinion after watching and reading about albino Dobermans for more than 10 years!
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:10 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
But who is to say our standard is right? It isn't the same as the German standard.
remysdobys,

Well, our standard (as most standards do) resulted from the parent club hammering out a blueprint for a dog--in this case the Doberman Pinscher. Todays standard is not the same as the German standard--but up until fairly recently--the German Standard and the AKC standard were nearly identical. For the first few standards they were identical. If you talk to some of the German (or other European) breeders you'll find that not everyone was entirely happy about the change in the German standard about 16 years ago that allowed for a longer dog, made height a disqualifying issue and deleted blues which had been OK in the German Standard since the second year of the recognition of the Dobermann in German (something like 1899).

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A standard is an OPINION of a group of people. The same people who for right now won't agree to restrict the registration of White and Z factor dobermans. If they think it is such a bad thing why don't they restrict the registration on them to cut back on the demand for them. I know there would still be demand but it definitely would cut it down some.
Someone else already explained to you why the DPCA can't restrict the registration of either albinos or Z list dogs. The AKC is a registering agency. They will register any dog who is the product of two registered parents. The DPCA can, and did, open the Doberman standard to disqualify "Dogs not of an allowed color." That was in 1982. The disqualification ONLY applies to conformation. A Dobe not of an allowed color is eligible to compete in all other AKC events.

Quote:
They don't do it because as of right now there is not enough proof that it is bad for the breed, but argument could be made very strongly that blues and fawns are bad for the breed.
That's not why--albinism is not good for any breeding population--whether you chose to not believe that albinoid isn't a type of albinism. Much of the information on albinism stems originally from the study of the phenomenon in human genetics. The basic information hasn't changed in years. What is changing is the ability of geneticists to locate and identify the specific gene which causes a particular phenotype.

I suppose you could argue the point that dilution is not good for the breed. And I'd be more inclined to agree with you if I hadn't talked to at least one PhD geneticist (who decided that she'd rather be a vet and who now is) who thinks there is a good bit of evidence that it's quite possible that the CDA issue (that's the hair loss part--not all dilutes have skin problems) is controlled by a separate gene from the color issue. But it's sort of a moot point since a good many breeders now ALWAYS test for the dilution factor to make sure the breedings that they are doing will not result in dilute puppies.

Just as a good many Australian Shepherd breeders that I know are not (since there is also a genetic test for merle) breeding without testing for the merle gene.

There are Dobes who are blue or fawn and don't have CDA. There are other breeds who have both blues and fawns who never display the alopecia that plagues the Doberman. And there are breeds who have the same problems.

Quote:
Breed standards do change, so if the breed standard is perfect then why would it ever need to be changed? So just because the opinion of the AKC says they are bad then that means they are? So what about in the case of pomeranians? Merles are proven to have health issues and if bred to each other have huge issues, but they are allowed. So it is ok for a known color to have issues but one that is still being tested and has proof both ways not to be just because a group of people says? Sorry I see some bad logic in that reasoning. I am not saying that they should be able to be shown. I am just saying all the bashing on them until proper evidence comes to light is not good.
Yes, breed standards do change. Great Danes recently had a change in their standard which allowed a color that had always been a disqualifying color. The AKC Doberman standard didn't allow fawn (and Germany has never allowed fawn--having deemed it a "degenerate" gene way back when they did allow blue) until 1969 and the first fawn champion earned her title in 1972.

Changes in the standard take place for a variety of reasons. Some good, some not so good and some for reasons that I think are very bad indeed. I don't think that you are going to be able to argue the logic issue--if you want to do that there will be a contingent of people who will surely decide that because of the huge incident of cardiomyopathy in the Doberman that they should not be a breed at all. Good luck trying to get a go on that theory with the number of people who would rather have Dobes than any other breed regardless of the various built in health issues.

I agree with the folks that think you need to do more research but to be a lot more selective about which information is valuable. I've been reading the output of the albino breeders for years--they've kicked me off of nearly every forum and list that they've ever had--they don't like to be questioned. The source that you have used as a cite is a person who spent a lot of time on a Dobe list trying to convince me that she could prove her albino male was just a faded fawn (at the time there was no test for dilution and she based her arguement on the fact that the male color tested red.) He would still test red--there isn't a test for the albino gene--I have not doubt that there will be in time and then we'll have to revisit the Z dogs to see how many of them no longer are carrying an albino gene--but to date we don't know and have no way of finding out and I certainly would be dead against letting the albino gene loose in the general Doberman population.

Quote:
Once again. I don't favor one side over the other yet there is just nobody else standing up for the other side right now so I am bringing up points that are valid in my opinion and others as well (some that are against whites still feel that some of these points are valid and hope that they are discredited soon)
Well, the bottom line for me is that I think that an albinoid animal of the Doberman type is an albino--not a white dog. White dogs are dogs like Samoyeds (and albino is a disqualification in that breed too) or even Boxers where the white Boxer is a result of extreme extention of the "spotting" gene. Or white Shepherds. Those are "white" dogs.

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Old 12-06-2012, 09:20 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I wanted to address the eye testing issue as this has been one of the latest methods Albino Breeders have used the CERF to try and disprove the fact that dogs have issues with eye sight. The use of CERF exams to disprove the problems with eyes is misleading. The CERF exam *doesn't* address many of the vision issues caused by Albinism. Eyes need pigment to function properly, plain and simple. You need far more in-depth eye exams to determine the vision problems associated with Albinism.

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The “classic” type of albinism is known as OCA1, Oculocutaneous Albinism, type 1. OCA1 involves a mutation in the gene which produces tyrosinase . Albinism always effects vision. Dobermans of the four accepted colors do not have these vision problems. The vision problems in albinism result from abnormal development of the retina (due to lack of normal levels of pigment during development) and abnormal patterns of nerve connections between the eye and the brain. The optic nerves are misrouted to the brain. The CERF examination, commonly used to detect congenital ocular defects in dogs will not detect several of the visual problems associated with albinism. CERF does detect cataracts, progressive retinal atrophy, or persistent pupillary membranes, it does not detect near-sightedness, far-sightedness, astigmatism, loss of depth-perception and the optic nerve abnormalities common to albinos. Since pupillary dilation makes all dogs photosensitive, this means that CERF examinations will not detect photosensitivity either. Obviously, visual deficits would be a serious handicap for a working breed dog. Also, the poor vision suffered by albinos may be a partial explanation for the aggressive and/or fearful behaviors often reported in albino Dobermans. There have been multiple reports of photosensitive/photophobia from owners of albinistic Dobermans, as well as reports of extreme nearsightedness (such as an inability to recognize family members from across a room and inability to chase a ball) and severe lack of depth perception (such as difficulty climbing stairs or with problems falling off of a porch). Photophobia in these dogs was also confirmed by ophthalmogic exam.

Source: Albinism Science

An article on OCA2 which is the proposed form of albinism that affects dobermans. Again, eye problems are still associated with OCA2, as the lack of pigment still disrupts normal ocular development. It is sometimes refereed to as partial-alibinism, but they are still albinos. It is an old distinction that was sometimes used to separate those who had no pigment at all from those who have small amounts of pigment - basically OCA1 vs OCA2. There is also OCA3 and 4. Read up here for more on the different types: Oculocutaneous albinism - Genetics Home Reference

Quote:
More than 80 mutations in the OCA2 gene have been identified in people with oculocutaneous albinism type 2. People with this form of albinism often have light yellow, blond, or light brown hair; creamy white skin; light-colored eyes; and problems with vision. The most common OCA2 mutation is a large deletion in the gene, which is found in many affected individuals of sub-Saharan African heritage. Other OCA2 gene mutations, including changes in single DNA building blocks (base pairs) and small deletions, are more common in other populations. Mutations in the OCA2 gene disrupt the normal production of melanin, which reduces coloring of the hair, skin, and eyes and affects vision.

Source: OCA2 - oculocutaneous albinism II - Genetics Home Reference
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:32 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by remysdobys View Post
I do not feel that I am fighting. I am debating with or trying to debate with adults on an issue. It is the snide remarks and things that are not helpful to the topic at all that are "fighting" to me. Not that your remarks were. Jazi has and continues to bring up very valid points that have basis in fact and I greatly appreciate the information and insight she is giving on this issue.

How many Albino dobermans have you met? Have you spent any length of time with any? You really can't get a feel for how "special" (not in a good way) these dogs are over the internet.

They do have temperment, vision and health issues some more than others but overall no albino is a good representative of what a doberman should be.

I've attached a picture to help illustrate the difference in an Albino and a white dog. Yes he was mine I loved him dearly from the day we started fostering him until he died just short of his 3rd birthday from major intestinal cancer. I would suggest you volunteer for a rescue and if you truly want an albino adopt one of the many that are available from a doberman rescue.


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Old 12-06-2012, 09:49 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:38 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Some interesting statistics about WZ and Albino registration. Keep in mind this only pertains to dogs who are registered, and does not include a rather large number of all dobes (in all colors) who go unregistered.

In 2011:
9,142 dobermans were registered with the AKC with 3,016 Litters registered. In that same time frame there were 2,199 Dobermans registered who were descendants of the original Albino.

Therefore- 2199 WZ AKC registered Dobermans in 2011 / 9,142 total AKC registered Dobes in 2011 = 24% WZ
1 in 4 Dobermans registered now days are WZ (albinos or potential carriers).

2011 WZ registered dogs broken down by color:
123 ALBINO (6%)
1096 BLACK (50%)
233 BLUE (11%)
145 FAWN (7%)
602 RED (27%)

Albinos account for only about ~1.5% of total doberman registrations, but we have no idea what percentage of the other WZ dogs carry the mutation for Albinism.

I have a theory/idea and it seems to be supported by science and my limited exposure/observance of albinos. I have yet to see or look at pictures of an albino doberman who suffers from CDA (Color Dilution Alopecia). I can't say I have seen all the albinos out there or have researched this heavily, but I can't find anything to the contrary. Albinism prevents the expression of pigment, aka the absence of color. Thus an albino doberman could be any one of the 4 recognized colors genetically.

Color Dilution Alopecia is caused by clumping of the pigment molecules in the hair shaft. The clumping distorts the hair shaft and causes damage to the hair follicle over time. This is where the Albinism comes in, we know there are albinos who are Blue and Fawn genetically, but they don't seem to have problems with CDA. If there is no pigment to distort the hair shaft, they can't have CDA. Theoretically speaking these albino dogs who are Blue and Fawn genetically would have the same rate of CDA as their non-albino counterparts if there was pigment in the hair to cause CDA. That doesn't appear to be the case though. I haven't seen a single Albino doberman exhibiting signs of CDA.

You can't have CDA without pigment. No pigment, means no CDA. Just my $0.02
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